Praetorian of Dorn

[Phoebus]

Dorn thinks he did - but let be honest - what PoD verify: is that IF and their Primarch are incapable of strategical thinking outside the scope of strategium and lines. Morale, choices, crossroads and several scopes of definition of done is not for them.

No. Look, everyone's entitled to their opinion, but what you've done here is frame one that ignores what was actually said and shown in the novel.

 

Rogal Dorn isn't "incapable" of strategic thinking regarding, "morale, choices, crossroads," and so on. Whether you think his assessment is wrong or not, Dorn's speech to Alpharius clearly demonstrates that he is capable of these things. He chooses to focus his war-making on conventional uses of force, and proving the Imperium's might on the battlefield. This is a reflection of how twisted and dark things are in the 31st Millennium. It's an ideology that harkens back to less enlightened times, when war was - somehow - considered a virtuous activity.

 

This conversation parallels another one I'm having at the Adeptus Astartes sub-forum. What it really boils down to is that we are told what the primarchs are supposed to be, but their actual depictions often fall short of that concept. I feel that Fulgrim, for instance, helped set low expectations by way of the simplistic light Ferrus Manus is shown in. Unfortunately, this places a burden on the readers: to be flexible in how we view these creatures, and accept that the standard will not be the same, novel by novel. With that in mind, we can't rebel when someone like French actually tries to show just how much insight a primarch can glean from all the data that would be available to him.

 

And sadly that was cemented by the Siege of Terra, because ...

... Because?

[Phoebus]

Terminus,

 

At the end of the day, I doubt we're going to come to consensus as to what Alpharius's mission exactly entailed. There are just too many unknowns. What follows is not an attempt to convince you of anything - more sharing information and a perspective:

 

We can be reasonably certain that Alpharius is acting in good faith on the information he received from the Acuity.

 

We know that, at the time of the events of Praetorian of Dorn, Sol is protected by a single legion of Space Marines: the Imperial Fists. There are many other armies and agencies responsible for the defense of the system, but I think we can agree that the Imperial Fists are first and foremost on that list.

 

Alpharius sows chaos throughout Sol, but specifically targets the First Sphere of Sol's defenses: the fortress moons, communication hubs, and sensor augurs that would pick up enemies as they arrive.

 

(This actually raises an interesting question: do Mandeville Points orbit a system's star? Pluto's orbit lasts for 248 years, so unless Dorn recognized that Horus would be invading during a period when Pluto and its moons were within striking proximity of Sol's Mandeville Point and raised defenses there accordingly, that entire concept strikes me as a huge investment for a very limited return.)

 

Had Alpharius succeeded it is questionable whether any loyalist force in Sol would be able to dislodge him from his position. Accounting for Alexis Pollux's force having been sent away to Phall (but now currently in Ultramar), perhaps only 60-70,000 Imperial Fists were at Sol. I don't recall Praetorian qualifying what division of forces was made along the three Spheres, but had Alpharius won the final battle, it's probably safe to assume as many as half of the Fists would have been destroyed. Even assuming very heavy losses for the Alpha Legion, it's doubtful the balance of the VIIth Legion would have been able to subsequently defeat them.

 

I think it's doubtful that Alpharius sought to convince the Imperium nothing was wrong with the First Sphere. Whatever Dorn's earlier efforts, it will have been plainly obvious prior to the actual attacks on Pluto that the Alpha Legion were operating in Sol. All those assets, cults, and renegades being activated could not have been missed. The idea that Alpharius & Co. will have somehow tried to impersonate Sigismund and his forces smacks too much of Deliverance Lost and The Seventh Serpent. Mind you, both those stories featured such attempts on a much, much lower scale or for a very short time span, and for a very specific task.

 

Rather, I think it's far more likely that Alpharius's grand design was to knock down the first gate to Terra and hold it for Horus to come in. Ironically, however, the unexpected arrival of the White Scars might have still ruined his scheme.

 

To your closing point, I'm not convinced by any means that Alpharius was brainwashed by the Acuity. I merely offered that up as a possibility. Like I said earlier, I'm not convinced he was necessarily trying to turn Dorn. For all we know, he was just using words as a weapon - to distract Dorn enough to allow an opening in his defenses.

 

As far as the quality of Legion, or how good the Acuity plot element was, we're getting into personal, subjective opinions. Some people were always going to want Alpharius to just be the single, scheming and prideful primarch the original lore gave us. Others, such as myself, are happy with attempts to offer different, even controversial, takes on the Heresy's protagonists. At the end of the day, I'm going to be just fine with Alpharius as someone convinced (or brainwashed into thinking) that humanity has to be sacrificed to remove the threat of thirsting psychic gods who prey on sentient species. At this point, I'm far more worried about changes like the Lion going from a taciturn individual who is slow to anger but wrathful once he gets there to someone who perpetually wears the Captain Unreasonable hat and is apparently contractually obliged to make the wrong decision at every turn.

[Terminus]

Regarding Pluto being a dumb defense, I mentioned the same above... same thing for a "outer system communication and surveillance hub", what happens when it's on the other side of the Solar System than the direction you're trying to reach out to?  So silly. 

 

Regarding keeping their conquest concealed, it does seem impossible to do so given their telegraphing their presence, and all the assets that were activated, and that the system-wide alarm was sounded.  So it makes what he says to Archamus really strange.  The fight, brutal as it was in its ending (Flint called it the most uncomfortable thing she's read from BL in a long while), reminded me of the Red Viper v. the Mountain, with the victor in both cases afflicted by a slow-acting poison that saw to their undoing and remaking into a broken engine of murder, literal in one and figurative in the other.  As for disposition of forces, it seems to have been utterly irrelevant because Dorn had the Phallanx, which is apparently all you need.  They had a 200% numerical superiority on the local fleet assets and control of the gun platforms, and the Phallanx (and Covenant) just erased them all.  What was Alpharius's end game or exit strategy?  He kills Dorn, his fleet evaporates, Phallanx nukes Hydra station.  Whomp whomp.

 

And if Dorn was so certain he killed Alpharius, why conceal the whole thing and make sure no one knows?  Sure, the proximity of a traitor primarch might send tendrils of unrest through the system, but that's nothing compared to the jubilation to hear that "Mighty Lord Dorn roflstomped that noob."

 

The Dark Angels are an unfortunate lot, being a Thorpe-touched Legion, so they are as doomed as Raven Guard to be mopey schmucks for all eternity.  At least he defeated Kurze, no small feat, and he's the only one 100% confirmed alive and ready to go at the flip of a switch in 40K.

[Phoebus]

I tweeted John French to see if he considers Mandeville Points to be fixed points in a solar system or an orbiting stellar phenomenon. If it's the latter, then this is a non-issue.

 

Given how utterly one-sided the battle was once the Phalanx arrived, I honestly don't know how Alpharius thought he was going to prevail.

My initial thought was that he perhaps really was so arrogant as to be convinced Dorn would be duped into departing on a fool's errand to those systems Terra had lost contact with, and that reinforcements (meaning, the other Traitor Legions) would be soon arriving. It certainly appears as if Alpharius was laying a trap for Dorn, so surely he cannot have expected him to come sans flagship. Perhaps Alpharius was going "all-in," though, and his plan always required for him to take out Dorn. I don't know, maybe there was a Step Hydra 38-gamma that involved capturing the Phalanx after Dorn was incapacitated or killed. If not, though, and Alpharius had no answer to the mightiest warship in the galaxy, it would have been nice to see his reaction as his fleet started getting torn to shreds.

 

That's a very good analogy re: the Viper and The Mountain that Rides, by the way.

[Augustus]

It is an interesting argument, from Dorn. 

I remember Corax talking about how he beat Guillimen three times in simulations. Corax was able to make use of depleted forces that Guillimen wasn't able to foresee. Then of course Guillimen catches on and begins to best Corax "forevermore".  I know it is just simulations but does that mean Guillimen was able to master Corax's art of war but not vice versa? Are some Primarchs better than the others? 

Well, yes. 

 

Horus is the greatest.

[b1soul]

You'd think that if the real Alpharius

 

 

were still alive... Omegon would probably still feel a link

 

 

Who knows really

 

There were elements of buffoonery, sure.  The only other interpretation is to read him as this super perfect awesome tactician of awesomeness that is better at everything, which is even worse than a buffoon. 

There is middle ground between buffoon and super awesome better than everything

 

Come on...

 

You can see a lot more from a 3rd person perspective than in the narrow confines of combat.  Alpharius struck three times, the first Dorn was able to parry, the second carved him open, and the third was poised to finish the job before Arachmus interfered.

I would argue that you could see a lot of things more clearly within the confines of close combat than you could from some more distant angle

 

If you insist on believing that Alpharius (or an upgraded Alpha Legionnaire) was guaranteed to kill Dorn absent Archamus' action...you are entitled to that belief

 

The fact of the matter is ... we don't really know what the outcome would have been had Archamus been removed

[no I'm alpharius]

The one-shot assassin idea earlier and the Hydra's head metaphor are such low hanging fruit that I doubt BL's ability to resist them. 

 

I would rather stay dead, thanks. 

 

That is, obviously, exactly what I want you to believe. 

[Legatus]

I know it is just simulations but does that mean Guillimen was able to master Corax's art of war but not vice versa?

 

It did not say that Guilliman suddenly became as adapt in underhanded guerilla surprise tactics. He did not out-Corax Corax in his own style of fighting. But he is one of the supreme strategists among the Primarchs, and once he had understood what kind of tactics he was dealing with, he was able to effectively counter them. If you wanted a rapid dagger strike or prolonged hidden warfare campaign you would probably still send Corax, even if he was not able to overcome Guilliman with those methods.

[Terminus]

 

I would argue that you could see a lot of things more clearly within the confines of close combat than you could from some more distant angle

 

If you insist on believing that Alpharius (or an upgraded Alpha Legionnaire) was guaranteed to kill Dorn absent Archamus' action...you are entitled to that belief

 

The fact of the matter is ... we don't really know what the outcome would have been had Archamus been removed

 

Then you would be wrong, and identifying yourself as someone who has never been in close combat.

 

That's fine, it could be that no matter who was there or how they contributed, Dorn was always going to crush Alpharius in every way.  So much for that middle ground.

[Arkangilos]

Not entirely wrong. It depends on perspective. Combat gives you a narrow vision of what's going on, and people outside can observe more, but the people outside won't ever actually know what was playing out. They don't know what was going through their thoughts, their emotional state, why they reacted to certain things.

 

To an outsider they might see what they think is the truth, but that doesn't mean it is the truth.

 

So it's a matter of what do we mean when we say we can or cannot see a lot of things more clearly.

[Praetor of Calth]

Could just be me, but I took the entire point of this book to be the Alpha Legion getting outclassed.

 

They've been Mary sues for the entirety of the Heresy, and in this instance their arrogance gets the better of them, and they pay for it.

[Terminus]

Mary Sues? Other than their infiltration of the Raven Guard, they get their asses handed to them any time there is a fight.

[mc warhammer]

god i hate the misuse of "mary sue"

[b1soul]

Then you would be wrong, and identifying yourself as someone who has never been in close combat.

You're claiming "I know more than you". Prove it.

Please share your extensive experience in close combat. Wow me with your close combat knowledge.

 

Something simple for you to consider...

 

If you are up close with a frontal view of your opponent ... you may see some things more clearly than would a person viewing from farther away from the side ... e.g. it's easier to see your opponent's twitches and subtle body movements if you're closer ... if you're a third person, your view of combatant A might be obscured by combatant B

 

Different perspectives offer different advantages and affect your judgement of angles. If you've ever sparred seriously, you would know this

 

That said, was Dorn so close to Alpharius that he couldn't see Alpharius' whole body? I don't think so.

 

I find it very funny that your whole argument is basically "I'm a close combat expert and I say that Dorn was a buffoon who was guaranteed to lose against an upgraded space marine"

[Kilofix]

Shifting the discussion slightly:

 

This book, taken in context of Flight of the Eisenstein, Crimson Fist (see signature) and Lightning Tower preceeding it, and Last Remembrancer proceeding it - does depict that Dorn has been through a lot of sh!+. One can only imagine how coming upon a dead Sanguinius and mostly dead Emperor might have "broken" him. I think this is alluded to in French's afterword ("What are you really afraid of?").

 

What happened with the Cage isn't surprising then.

 

Dorn has never been in my top 5 of Primarchs but he's very quickly getting there.

[Nazguire]

 

And if Dorn was so certain he killed Alpharius, why conceal the whole thing and make sure no one knows?  Sure, the proximity of a traitor primarch might send tendrils of unrest through the system, but that's nothing compared to the jubilation to hear that "Mighty Lord Dorn roflstomped that noob."

 

 

 

It was a pride thing: Not going to give the Alpha Legion, the traitors or even the memory of Alpharius the dignity of remembrance. Dy refusing to even record and acknowledge Alpharius' death is the ultimate insult in Dorn's eyes. It makes sense and doesn't take too much to understand when you think of their earlier dialogue in the novel.

[mc warhammer]

 

 

 

And if Dorn was so certain he killed Alpharius, why conceal the whole thing and make sure no one knows? Sure, the proximity of a traitor primarch might send tendrils of unrest through the system, but that's nothing compared to the jubilation to hear that "Mighty Lord Dorn roflstomped that noob."

 

 

It was a pride thing: Not going to give the Alpha Legion, the traitors or even the memory of Alpharius the dignity of remembrance. Dy refusing to even record and acknowledge Alpharius' death is the ultimate insult in Dorn's eyes. It makes sense and doesn't take too much to understand when you think of their earlier dialogue in the novel.

also, the imperium love striking things from the record. as they say "the emperor redacts"

[Terminus]

 

Then you would be wrong, and identifying yourself as someone who has never been in close combat.

You're claiming "I know more than you". Prove it.

Please share your extensive experience in close combat. Wow me with your close combat knowledge.

 

Something simple for you to consider...

 

If you are up close with a frontal view of your opponent ... you may see some things more clearly than would a person viewing from farther away from the side ... e.g. it's easier to see your opponent's twitches and subtle body movements if you're closer ... if you're a third person, your view of combatant A might be obscured by combatant B

 

Different perspectives offer different advantages and affect your judgement of angles. If you've ever sparred seriously, you would know this

 

That said, was Dorn so close to Alpharius that he couldn't see Alpharius' whole body? I don't think so.

 

I find it very funny that your whole argument is basically "I'm a close combat expert and I say that Dorn was a buffoon who was guaranteed to lose against an upgraded space marine"

 

Please stop talking about something you know nothing about if you have never participated in any combat sport or martial art.  If you want some simple examples, look at boxing fights that end with a knockout.  It's the punch that you never see that knocks you out, yet every single person in the audience can see that punch clear as day.  Yes, you can see more about a person's relative position to his opponent from a third person perspective than right next to them. 

[Roomsky]

As someone who has done quite a bit of sparring, I can testify that watching a fight is a far clearer perspective than actually being in one. Things you would barely notice in time, if at all, as a participant are usually blindingly obvious to a spectator. The same should, in theory provide to similar minds. If Guilliman was the observer, for instance, he would more than likely have seen Alpharius' move coming.

 

Archamus, however, is not a primarch. So the question is: is the advantage of viewing outside of combat so great that it closes the distance between primarch and marine?

 

Considering Rogal batted Garro across the room back in Eisenstein before he even knew what had happened, I'd wager probably not.

[Augustus]

Any given Sunday.

 

Guillimen commented on a blow that was so fast that he doubted he would have been able to see coming. Said blow was thrown by a member of a "woof squad".

[Marshal Rohr]

Are we really going to start comparing boxing and mma to what genetically enhanced super humans can do? Because I'm 100% sure we can't actually quantify that. Like we can argue tactics and strategies all day, because all of human history provides a record, but actual fist fighting is such a toss up and the characters are so much more physically advanced there is no evidence. It's like the argument over the right way for a space marine to hold a spear a few weeks back. Like I get how humans should do it, but marines don't need that because their whole body is armored.

 

Also, it's incredibly, incredibly ridiculous to start measuring credibility of martial arts on the Internet. I could walk in here and say I'm a black belt and once punched a man so hard his mother felt it and nothing anyone could say can prove me wrong. It reeks of polite genital measuring/fight me irl bro talk.

[Terminus]

Except even the craziness of 40K is grounded somewhat in a reality we can recognize.  Yes, just like a normal human can get a better perspective from 3rd person when watching two other humans fight, one super enhanced bio soldier can get a better perspective standing a few steps away from two other super enhanced bio soldiers.

 

Your second argument is also irrelevant.  We are not discussing the credibility of martial arts, we are talking about a very simple principle of combat that applies universally from a pair of ants to a pair of gods. The only thing ridiculous around here is your baseless drivel.

 

Archamus may not be a primarch, but he is a top tier commander who has fought side by side with Dorn for centuries... I imagine he is at least somewhat familiar with the capabilities of his liege.  And again, the gap between Primarchs and marines is not that huge, they get pushed on the backfoot by Marines all the time. 

[TheAlephNull]

I'm just going to react to this novel in the only healthy way I know, I'm henceforth scrawling "Alpharius Lives!" in every public bathroom stall and parking garage that I can.

[Terminus]

LOL, nah, he either faked his death and faded to obscurity, or was set up by Omegon who was working against him, or was deranged from the Acuity and really met his doom in the worst-planned attack ever. Regardless, it makes for an interesting discussion, and there is nothing wrong with people bringing their experiences in to add perspective to a purely theoretical discussion.

[Roomsky]

Are we really going to start comparing boxing and mma to what genetically enhanced super humans can do? Because I'm 100% sure we can't actually quantify that. Like we can argue tactics and strategies all day, because all of human history provides a record, but actual fist fighting is such a toss up and the characters are so much more physically advanced there is no evidence. It's like the argument over the right way for a space marine to hold a spear a few weeks back. Like I get how humans should do it, but marines don't need that because their whole body is armored.

 

Also, it's incredibly, incredibly ridiculous to start measuring credibility of martial arts on the Internet. I could walk in here and say I'm a black belt and once punched a man so hard his mother felt it and nothing anyone could say can prove me wrong. It reeks of polite genital measuring/fight me irl bro talk.

 

Your first point is an entirely reasonable one, and while I disagree in this case, it is entirely possible that the incomprehensible level primarchs operate on could have some different effect.

 

But golly Mr. Rohr, that's a little rude, don't you think? B1soul specifically brought up that one would need to have some experience fighting to challenge his point, which I do.