Praetorian of Dorn

[Marshal Rohr]

I'm pointing out anybody can say that (not doubting either of you actually do). It's just not comparable to discuss what we can do verse what a primarch can do. Even the best boxers can lose to someone worse than them on a bad day.

[Terminus]

Fair enough, the point is not our respective combat skills, but that a third-person perspective lets you see more. Active combat forces myopic vision, and we have plenty of examples of even Primarchs being distracted, misdirected, or otherwise taken off-guard in close combat.  Hell, look at the bull ant, if you cut the guy in half and put the pieces next to each other, the head will instinctively bite the thorax while the thorax will stubbornly sting the head.  Talk about myopia! Yes, better boxers lose fights to lesser opponents all the time (rigged judges notwithstanding), and if you ever listen to those post-fight interviews or analyses, it's almost always a random punch they didn't see that was blatantly obvious to everyone else in the room that day. It's an example of not seeing the forest for the trees.

 

I am just saying we shouldn't just dismiss Arachmus for being a lesser being, because he was still one of the oldest and best Astartes Dorn had in his service, and he had seen Dorn fight for centuries.  It seems more dramatic and even-handed that he spent his last few iotas of energy protecting his lord rather than a futile gesture because Dorn is simply the bestest.  And if we are ascribing super attributes to Primarchs, you'd think they would be able to judge relative strengths, and Alpharius wouldn't be foolish enough to wade into combat with Dorn if the latter is clearly and utterly superior to him in every way shape and form (which is what a few folks in this and related thread are trying to argue).

[veterannoob]

John's interview 3 weeks ago is now up. No major spoilers (the ones what go spoiled already ) On iTunes for Combat Phase or direct:

http://traffic.libsyn.com/combatphase/Ep_163_-_Praeorian_of_Dorn_wJohn_French.mp3

[b1soul]

Please stop talking about something you know nothing about if you have never participated in any combat sport or martial art. If you want some simple examples, look at boxing fights that end with a knockout. It's the punch that you never see that knocks you out, yet every single person in the audience can see that punch clear as day. Yes, you can see more about a person's relative position to his opponent from a third person perspective than right next to them.

 

Please say something of substance, sensei. "I'm an expert and you're clueless" is not an argument

 

Now you're saying "everyone in the audience would see the knock out punch coming"

 

Really?! Everyone in the audience??? Sometimes the ref doesn't even see it coming...

 

How about someone behind the guy who got punched...whose view of the puncher is at least partially obscured?

 

You're being a bit thick here...

 

Anyone can claim "I am a close combat expert" on an internet forum and then accuse the other side of not knowing anything. To have a meaningful discussion, you actually have to articulate your points, which you have done very poorly

 

 

Also, it's incredibly, incredibly ridiculous to start measuring credibility of martial arts on the Internet. I could walk in here and say I'm a black belt and once punched a man so hard his mother felt it and nothing anyone could say can prove me wrong. It reeks of polite genital measuring/fight me irl bro talk.

Your first point is an entirely reasonable one, and while I disagree in this case, it is entirely possible that the incomprehensible level primarchs operate on could have some different effect.

 

But golly Mr. Rohr, that's a little rude, don't you think? B1soul specifically brought up that one would need to have some experience fighting to challenge his point, which I do.

His 2nd point stands...any keyboard warrior can claim to be a super-perceptive martial arts master or boxing veteran...and then proceed to tell the other side that "you know nothing"

 

That's not an argument. That's just ego stroking.

 

I can respect your opinion...but in my experience, a close frontal view of an opponent is not categorically inferior to some other, more distant angle. Your position obviously affects your judgment of angles and distances...so the best angle would depend on the situation.

 

I think one of the obvious benefits of being a spectator (from a good angle and distance) or of watching a clear recording (possible from multiple camera angles) is that you're observing at your leisure. You can focus on just watching the fight...no one is trying to punch your head when you're just an observer

 

So this whole debate over whether Dorn had the better view or Archamus had the better view (i.e. did Archamus accurately anticipate something Dorn completely missed?) and ultimately over whether Dorn would have died ...really depends on

 

1. Where exactly was Archamus relative to the two combatants?

2. Was Archamus thinking straight? He was in a bad way and probably overly fearful for Dorn's safety

3. If Archamus' view were indeed superior for the purpose of observing that particular incoming strike by Alpharius, would his superior view outweigh Dorn's superior intellect?

4. How much did Archamus actually change the blow? Would a wounded guardsmen be able to significantly alter the blow of an Astartes-level being? Did Archamus really make a consequential difference to Alpharius' blow?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Okay folks, let's stick to discussing the novel and follow the Tao of Bill and Ted. 

 

https://vid.space/shortlink/53edc4a0aea5bcc9105daea9

 

 

Any more personal comments or attacks and the thread takes a time out and I start thumping people. 

[Terminus]

He was a stride away, functional enough to defeat elite Lerneans, and struck the spear's haft mid strike. Make a thrust with a broomstick, and have your grandmother smack the length of it. I guarantee you won't be able to maintain your line even if you can benchpress both of your grandparents. You're being purposely obtuse I think.

But sure, if in a book about Archamus (per author), the last of the original 20 Imperial Fists, First among the Huscarls, Dorn's personal praetorian and longest-lived servant, his dramatic and heroic last act is complete meaningless and inconsequential as far as you're concerned, then our starting grounds are too far apart to ever meet anywhere in the middle, so we can just end this circular debate.

[HeritorA]

 

Please stop talking about something you know nothing about if you have never participated in any combat sport or martial art. If you want some simple examples, look at boxing fights that end with a knockout. It's the punch that you never see that knocks you out, yet every single person in the audience can see that punch clear as day. Yes, you can see more about a person's relative position to his opponent from a third person perspective than right next to them.

Please say something of substance, sensei. "I'm an expert and you're clueless" is not an argument

 

Now you're saying "everyone in the audience would see the knock out punch coming"

 

Really?! Everyone in the audience??? Sometimes the ref doesn't even see it coming...

 

How about someone behind the guy who got punched...whose view of the puncher is at least partially obscured?

 

You're being a bit thick here...

 

Anyone can claim "I am a close combat expert" on an internet forum and then accuse the other side of not knowing anything. To have a meaningful discussion, you actually have to articulate your points, which you have done very poorly

 

 

Also, it's incredibly, incredibly ridiculous to start measuring credibility of martial arts on the Internet. I could walk in here and say I'm a black belt and once punched a man so hard his mother felt it and nothing anyone could say can prove me wrong. It reeks of polite genital measuring/fight me irl bro talk.

Your first point is an entirely reasonable one, and while I disagree in this case, it is entirely possible that the incomprehensible level primarchs operate on could have some different effect.

 

But golly Mr. Rohr, that's a little rude, don't you think? B1soul specifically brought up that one would need to have some experience fighting to challenge his point, which I do.

His 2nd point stands...any keyboard warrior can claim to be a super-perceptive martial arts master or boxing veteran...and then proceed to tell the other side that "you know nothing"

 

That's not an argument. That's just ego stroking.

 

I can respect your opinion...but in my experience, a close frontal view of an opponent is not categorically inferior to some other, more distant angle. Your position obviously affects your judgment of angles and distances...so the best angle would depend on the situation.

 

I think one of the obvious benefits of being a spectator (from a good angle and distance) or of watching a clear recording (possible from multiple camera angles) is that you're observing at your leisure. You can focus on just watching the fight...no one is trying to punch your head when you're just an observer

 

So this whole debate over whether Dorn had the better view or Archamus had the better view (i.e. did Archamus accurately anticipate something Dorn completely missed?) and ultimately over whether Dorn would have died ...really depends on

 

1. Where exactly was Archamus relative to the two combatants?

2. Was Archamus thinking straight? He was in a bad way and probably overly fearful for Dorn's safety

3. If Archamus' view were indeed superior for the purpose of observing that particular incoming strike by Alpharius, would his superior view outweigh Dorn's superior intellect?

4. How much did Archamus actually change the blow? Would a wounded guardsmen be able to significantly alter the blow of an Astartes-level being? Did Archamus really make a consequential difference to Alpharius' blow?

 

You are right, except 1 point - 'Dorn's superior intellect'? Really? He is almost the most stupid of all the Primarchs, lol

[HeritorA]

He was a stride away, functional enough to defeat elite Lerneans, and struck the spear's haft mid strike. Make a thrust with a broomstick, and have your grandmother smack the length of it. I guarantee you won't be able to maintain your line even if you can benchpress both of your grandparents. You're being purposely obtuse I think.

 

But sure, if in a book about Archamus (per author), the last of the original 20 Imperial Fists, First among the Huscarls, Dorn's personal praetorian and longest-lived servant, his dramatic and heroic last act is complete meaningless and inconsequential as far as you're concerned, then our starting grounds are too far apart to ever meet anywhere in the middle, so we can just end this circular debate.

That's another point - I'm still waiting for an answer how some SM (even with a lot of experience) was able to defeat several elite Lerneans? HOW? Easy - PLOT ARMOUR.

Horus Heresy and TBA are now the greatest example of PLOT Armour, sadly

[Terminus]

You're way late to the party if you're just now realizing that Warhammer features wild heroics.  They should have just named the Phallanx's machine spirit the warmaster, all it does is win win win no matter what. Got yellow on its walls it can never get enough. And every time it warps into a sector everybody's hands go up! And then they die. Then they die!

[Arkangilos]

 

 

 

Please stop talking about something you know nothing about if you have never participated in any combat sport or martial art. If you want some simple examples, look at boxing fights that end with a knockout. It's the punch that you never see that knocks you out, yet every single person in the audience can see that punch clear as day. Yes, you can see more about a person's relative position to his opponent from a third person perspective than right next to them.

Please say something of substance, sensei. "I'm an expert and you're clueless" is not an argument

 

Now you're saying "everyone in the audience would see the knock out punch coming"

 

Really?! Everyone in the audience??? Sometimes the ref doesn't even see it coming...

 

How about someone behind the guy who got punched...whose view of the puncher is at least partially obscured?

 

You're being a bit thick here...

 

Anyone can claim "I am a close combat expert" on an internet forum and then accuse the other side of not knowing anything. To have a meaningful discussion, you actually have to articulate your points, which you have done very poorly

 

 

Also, it's incredibly, incredibly ridiculous to start measuring credibility of martial arts on the Internet. I could walk in here and say I'm a black belt and once punched a man so hard his mother felt it and nothing anyone could say can prove me wrong. It reeks of polite genital measuring/fight me irl bro talk.

Your first point is an entirely reasonable one, and while I disagree in this case, it is entirely possible that the incomprehensible level primarchs operate on could have some different effect.

 

But golly Mr. Rohr, that's a little rude, don't you think? B1soul specifically brought up that one would need to have some experience fighting to challenge his point, which I do.

His 2nd point stands...any keyboard warrior can claim to be a super-perceptive martial arts master or boxing veteran...and then proceed to tell the other side that "you know nothing"

 

That's not an argument. That's just ego stroking.

 

I can respect your opinion...but in my experience, a close frontal view of an opponent is not categorically inferior to some other, more distant angle. Your position obviously affects your judgment of angles and distances...so the best angle would depend on the situation.

 

I think one of the obvious benefits of being a spectator (from a good angle and distance) or of watching a clear recording (possible from multiple camera angles) is that you're observing at your leisure. You can focus on just watching the fight...no one is trying to punch your head when you're just an observer

 

So this whole debate over whether Dorn had the better view or Archamus had the better view (i.e. did Archamus accurately anticipate something Dorn completely missed?) and ultimately over whether Dorn would have died ...really depends on

 

1. Where exactly was Archamus relative to the two combatants?

2. Was Archamus thinking straight? He was in a bad way and probably overly fearful for Dorn's safety

3. If Archamus' view were indeed superior for the purpose of observing that particular incoming strike by Alpharius, would his superior view outweigh Dorn's superior intellect?

4. How much did Archamus actually change the blow? Would a wounded guardsmen be able to significantly alter the blow of an Astartes-level being? Did Archamus really make a consequential difference to Alpharius' blow?

You are right, except 1 point - 'Dorn's superior intellect'? Really? He is almost the most stupid of all the Primarchs, lol

Heritor, can you ever constructively contribute? Or do all of your replies have to be pointless bashes?

[Terminus]

People are getting really hostile... should we just close this thread?  There are two others on the same topic that seem to be more friendly.

[Sete]

Oh wow this thread. Dorn is a pimp and he bitchslapped alpharius. Deal with it.

[veterannoob]

Using the ignore list is awesome, though on this forum you have to go into your own account to make the list, but so what? :) 

Yeah, maybe time to put a bow on this one.

[Olis]

Until further notice, this thread is closed. WLK did try to get it back on track but, alas, it didn't work.