How to deal with the phosphex crazy?

[The laughing raven]

My local Meta is incredibly heavy with quad launchers using phosphex (most use at least three in a game) and scorpius launchers whilst hidden in the furthest corner of the board, I have had some fun playing with them but would prefer to move away from this one trick pony style and would appeciate some helpful hints to beat this style?

 

I have made my lists all in transports to help for the survivability being the obvious, but what other tactics can help when you face 3 x phos launchers & 3 scorpii in a 2k list?

[Slips]

A Single Leviathan in a pod with a Grav Flux Bombard.

 

If you're hitting the guns instead of the crew, they auto-fail the 2D6 Ap2 Ignores Cover Strength Test while it also mulches the crew to boot.

 

Then you just need to blow up 3 Predator Chassis which shouldn't be too hard.

[helterskelter]

Land speeders and javelin, fast enough to skirt out of line of sight and get round to the sides and soft gooey centres.

Speeders can take grav for haywire hijinks, and javelin will be able to deal with both targets quite happily, take cyclone missile launchers in a trio, and multi melta, that's the tanks and those 6 crew members done for. Javelin got better with strafing run too so hitting stuff isn't going to be a problem

[Charlo]

Sniper Vets work too. A lucky outflank will let them come on and mulch the Artillery quite easily.

 

Or use your own artillery :P

 

OR Be Deathguard and get a 4+FNP against Phosphex and laugh.

[worldshatterer]

The simplest answer is to mechanise your list as you've already pointed out. If all of those deliciously squishy 3+ save dudes are hiding in buttoned up transports then Phosphex is a massive waste of points. I unfortunately have't got a perfect solution to the "how to stay viable as a 3+ save footslogger in a Phosphex heavy environment" other than hug cover & use apothecaries/hope your opponent decides to stop using horrific unsanctioned weapons of mass destruction that invalidate your playstyle. Speaking as someone who's got a lot of use out of 4 Quad Mortars and the Ironfire Rite of War I hope your local meta gets tired of effortlessly wiping enemy infantry off the board and returns to a slightly saner set of listbuilding options like I have. Silencing the guns is also an obvious solution but T7 3+save normally with a 4+ cover save, and thanks to the new Crusade Army list possibly Feel No Pain is not the simplest of tasks. Just about any unit assaulting them will take care of them fast and decisively so infiltrators and scouts should be prepared to take advantage of any oppurtunity. High Strength Ignore Cover weapons like the Dreadhammer on a Typhon will also make short work of them. Poison should also do the job quite nicely, either in the hands of Outflanking veterans or your own Phosphex Quad Mortars :)

[The laughing raven]

Hmm another reason to buy a leviathan, have to say they are one of my fave looking models from the heresy range.

Would you use anything to support it, or just drop it in and let it run amok whilst moving everything else up?

The idea of dropping a levi and then outflanking with 3 jav speeders as support would be interesting, I was going to try two contemptors running across the board (as i have two from BaC).

do you have any other suggestions that could make a army more survivable or do you just opt for kill it before it can get you and hope for first turn?

The list I'm planning and have actual models for with only the librarian on jb a proxy:

Alpha Legion.

Praetor, jp, aa, cw, pb, pd, mb, ih; 210

Assault squad, ps, aa, 200

Breachers, v&v, 2 x mg, serg, aa, th, br, mb; 300

LR Proteus hb 200

tac squad, v&v, 2ccws, serg pf&pd, aa, mb, rhino 235

3 jav speeders, 2HKs, mm, Tllc, 255

Librarian, jetbike, RF, aa,mb, 185

Total 1575,

so was going to use two contemptors, with kheres and grav which would be 410 or i could use a full squad of destroyers with rad mls 425pts (thought these would die to quickly) but i will try the leviathan proxy and see how that works any glaringly obvious mistakes or changes?

[Lord Asvaldir]

As worldshatter mentioned getting your entire army mechanized will definetly help. Sure rhinos are not gonna last that long, but it will at least buy some of your units a turn. Apothecaries on your valuable units definetly helps as well, you'll end up losing roughly a third less troops. 

 

Leviathan won't need any support, it's a beast and will be quite tanky for a turn while you hide in the pod. Plus unleashing the grav bombard and phosphex is going to cause some serious damage to a rapier battery. Few units are better at wiping out rapiers so quickly. 

[norngahl]

My answer to dug in units is a cc praetor on jetbike and cc units in pods or claws. Works quite well :)

[01RTB01]

Post content removed after being erroneous and trying to avoid confusion :)

[The laughing raven]

so would the general consensus be, dump a dread in to cause chaos via drop pod, whilst moving up troops in transports preferably with some cc units to get in quick before the rain comes as such?

[Terminus]

Drop a Leviathan into their deployment zone. Fight phosphex with phosphex!

 

Although I disagree with the above statement that its more tanky while in the pod. You'd be better exiting and keeping it between yourself and the biggest threat, staying embarked only really helps if you are at risk of being charged. The pod itself can be a nuisance though, if you land it right in front of those rapiers, their shooting lanes will be a mess.

[LtDan]

Just be deathguard like me haha. Takes off his helmet...... Just breath in that fresh air guys

[The laughing raven]

Death gaurd were a top choice but prefer my Alphas as i'm still a Tzeentchian at heart :)

 

I've seen enough praise for the levi's that i will be test running one. the LoS on them is negated by using barrage, but would make a good block for the vox units calling in the rain as such.

 

has anyone made a legal list for 2k pts that has two levis and still works against most opponents?

[Flint13]

 

As worldshatter mentioned getting your entire army mechanized will definetly help. Sure rhinos are not gonna last that long, but it will at least buy some of your units a turn. Apothecaries on your valuable units definetly helps as well, you'll end up losing roughly a third less troops.

Leviathan won't need any support, it's a beast and will be quite tanky for a turn while you hide in the pod. Plus unleashing the grav bombard and phosphex is going to cause some serious damage to a rapier battery. Few units are better at wiping out rapiers so quickly.

Agreed but you can no longer hide on drop. Latest book update

That's not correct. I'll admit I was one of the first to skim through the new DDP rules way too quickly and think the same thing.

 

We're not going to start that debate up again, however.

[01RTB01]

 

 

As worldshatter mentioned getting your entire army mechanized will definetly help. Sure rhinos are not gonna last that long, but it will at least buy some of your units a turn. Apothecaries on your valuable units definetly helps as well, you'll end up losing roughly a third less troops.

Leviathan won't need any support, it's a beast and will be quite tanky for a turn while you hide in the pod. Plus unleashing the grav bombard and phosphex is going to cause some serious damage to a rapier battery. Few units are better at wiping out rapiers so quickly.

Agreed but you can no longer hide on drop. Latest book update

That's not correct. I'll admit I was one of the first to skim through the new DDP rules way too quickly and think the same thing.

 

We're not going to start that debate up again, however.

Agreed! Reading clearly helps... I'll delete my other post to avoid confusion. Having re read the rules you can stay in but unlike before you now can be shot at. However, it still remains the easiest/best tactic for quad killing.

[The laughing raven]

So having taken on board as many pointers as can be fitted into a 2k list, what is the verdict on this list?

(also if anyone could tell me how to do the spoiler thing so i can hide the list would be good?)

 

Praetor jetbike, pb, aa, ih, dl, mb,vs, potl, 230 (Alpha legion mutable either scout or adamantium will, as store champ plays 1k sons.)

librarian jetbike, aa, lvl 2, 190

 

10 vets, 2hb, vex, serg aa, pf&pd, rhino 275 (marksmen)

10 vets, 2ML, vex, serg aa, pf&pd, rhino 285 (marksmen)

 

3 jav speeders, mm, 2hk, tllc 255

 

3 vindicators 360

levi dread, grav, phos, drop pod, 405

 

total 2000pts

 

plan is to keep everything in the transports using the vets hvy weapons from the open topped rhinos, dropping the levi in to deployment zone and having the javs outflank to support (or maybe starting on board with the ICs as bodygaurd detail), whilst the vindis roll forward dropping a trio of ordnance on anything threatening. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

 

 

As worldshatter mentioned getting your entire army mechanized will definetly help. Sure rhinos are not gonna last that long, but it will at least buy some of your units a turn. Apothecaries on your valuable units definetly helps as well, you'll end up losing roughly a third less troops.

Leviathan won't need any support, it's a beast and will be quite tanky for a turn while you hide in the pod. Plus unleashing the grav bombard and phosphex is going to cause some serious damage to a rapier battery. Few units are better at wiping out rapiers so quickly.

Agreed but you can no longer hide on drop. Latest book update

That's not correct. I'll admit I was one of the first to skim through the new DDP rules way too quickly and think the same thing.

We're not going to start that debate up again, however.

Agreed! Reading clearly helps... I'll delete my other post to avoid confusion. Having re read the rules you can stay in but unlike before you now can be shot at. However, it still remains the easiest/best tactic for quad killing.

Uhhhh... That's not right. You can't target the Levi unless it disembarks.

[The laughing raven]

I thought you had the option of staying inside but both parties would recieve the shrouded rule whether you were in or out and that you could only assault/ be assaulted on the 2nd turn?

[Charlo]

I thought you had the option of staying inside but both parties would recieve the shrouded rule whether you were in or out and that you could only assault/ be assaulted on the 2nd turn?

 

Sorry Flint......

 

It's been interpreted both ways, but the consensus that I've seen is that you stay embarked inside the pod, cannot be shot at, but the shrouded rule applies to both yourself and your targets.

[The laughing raven]

 

 

It's been interpreted both ways, but the consensus that I've seen is that you stay embarked inside the pod, cannot be shot at, but the shrouded rule applies to both yourself and your targets.

 

surely if you stay embarked you can neither shoot out or be shot, or you get out and both parties have shrouded, seems common sense....

 

anyway before we devolve into the same old debate, does anyone else have any innovative ideas for dealing with the sprayers of Phos?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You can shoot out since its OT.

[Charlo]

You can shoot out since its OT.

 

This. Same as any other unit in an Open Topped Transport.

 

BUT I think really just stay spread, in cover and always bring a medic or a metal box seems the best way.

[Terminus]

I'm not sure where that consensus was seen, since there is ongoing spirited debate. The discussion basically boils down to a single comma (or lack thereof).

 

The dreadnought inside does not have to deploy out unless the controller player wishes, and if this is the case, though it may still be targeted by shooting attacks, it may not be charged while this rule is in effect.

 

Per basic rules of grammar, without a comma before unless, the "case" referred to here is "does not have to deploy out".

 

With a comma, the case referred to becomes "unless the controlling player wishes".

 

In other words, it's the difference between:

The doors open and you may be shot at while embarked, but can't be assaulted.

 

Works as before where you are immune to being shot or charged while embarked. If you disembark, you can be shot at but are immune to being charged.

 

I would prefer the latter option, since it means ablative hull points for contemptors or Leviathans that disembark to avoid giving the opponent shrouding while maintaining charge immunity. The rule as written though seems to suggest the first option.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That doesn't make any sense seeing how all other open topped vehicles work. I doubt FW would jack the price and nerf the DDP too.

[Terminus]

It's a special transport vehicle, and has always functioned in its own way. They did nerf it by subjecting the dreadnought to the pod's shrouded (which I always felt should have been the case), the debate now is whether it also got nerfed defensively. It comes down to a single comma and any linguistic differences between British, American and Canuck English.

If you leave the cloud, and transport, why would it continue to protect you? But yeah, the latter interpretation modifies the core rules less, since we have never been able to shoot into a transport before and there is that whole "is it 25% concealed" for a 3++ while inside discussion.