No special weapons : viable options for Vanguards?

[Master Avoghai]

I've recently made up alternative lists to play with my admech and I've reached to the conclusion that playing a 10 man strong squad without any special weapon could be a viable option for Vanguard.

 

Behind this reasonning is the following :

• Vanguards are cheap and it's one of their strength
• Any weapon option is expensive, 3 arc rifles add up 40% to the cost of the squad => the cost of an ironstrider
• Every option helps against vehicles, but not against infantry and big creatures : you have more chances to wound a wraithknight with 10 rad guns rather than 7 + 3 special weapons of any types. anything with T6 or more starts being more sensible to rad. The only difference seems so be for models with T5...
• Ironstriders and onagers already fulfill the anti tank role very well with those neutron laser and cavalry lances

Hev you ever tried to play bareboned squads of vanguards? Did you get success with those or was it a stupid idea?

[DeStinyFiSh]

A lot of people prefere the Vanguards naked for the reasons you mention, with a lot of success.

[MagicHat]

One player is headed down this route at the club, using kataphrons and Onagers to cover up for their weak spot. I personally believe it is a valid option, and will make enough models to run my guys barebones.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

That certainly gave me something to think about. What about naked squads of rangers? Or do Rangers do better as a squad with the special weapons?

[Vel'Cona]

Rangers are just generally inferior to Vanguard, but playing them naked isn't commonly done in either case. It's probably because they seem to have synergy with the arquebus, though I don't think that's a very strong option, either. I'd say if you're going to take Rangers naked you'd might as well just save the points as naked Vanguard have strictly better guns by all that Mathhammer makes plain.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Right. I was wondering because my guard is very stormtrooper heavy, which means lots of 18" guns. I was hoping for a good ranged infantry option.

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

I feel like rangers might shine in a game of Killteam. I thought about running a "rad"-tide army and putting in as many Vanguards as possible, but then the Dragoons caught my eye

[Tyriks]

I prefer naked vanguard. I usually give them an omnispex and nothing else. If I want arc, I can take kataphrons so I'm not wasting shots. Plasma I'm not into outside of a war convocation (way too expensive just to end up killing myself with). The TA has not worked well for me, and if I wanted one I would put it on rangers. So yes, I think naked vanguard is extremely viable.

[Akrim]

Vanguard can work bare, but know their limits. I like taking at least one Plasma Caliver myself because of my meta.

 

Rangers have to be used properly to work. They are fire support, not advancer units like Vanguard. Consider the long range and S4/AP4.

Ive had them do quite well vs Tau FWs, Orks with +4 armour, etc.

Generally though i like small Ranger units with a couple Arquebuses or Arc Rifles.

[Master Avoghai]

That certainly gave me something to think about. What about naked squads of rangers? Or do Rangers do better as a squad with the special weapons?

The rangers are the enigma of the codex for me. They are more expensive than the vanguards, thzy only have move theough cover but lose the rad poison rule.

Their gun are not THAT good. No way to wound highT creatures or tanks. The fire rate is only good at low distance but even with that it cannot compete with the assaut 3 of the rad carbine.

 

They are nice as TA bearers in small units but other than that, I fail to see any use...

[Tyriks]

They're okay as objective squatters, but that's largely because if I leave vanguard on objective I will want to move them off to shoot something because they get things done.  If I leave rangers on an objective I'm okay with it.

[gmaleron]

 

• Every option helps against vehicles, but not against infantry and big creatures : you have more chances to wound a wraithknight with 10 rad guns rather than 7 + 3 special weapons of any types. anything with T6 or more starts being more sensible to rad. The only difference seems so be for models with T5...

Hev you ever tried to play bareboned squads of vanguards? Did you get success with those or was it a stupid idea?

 

 

Eventually I will collect enough to run my Vanguard in Squads of x5 or x10 with either Plasma Calivers, Arc Rifles or Naked as I love the idea of having that kind of flexibility. And no, its definitely a viable option however I do have to disagree somewhat with your assessment that their Special Weapon choices are totally useless against big creatures or heavy infantry. In some cases I have found having that much AP2 to be invaluable and having the S6 Arc Rifles help make up for the lack of 6's when rolling to wound with the Carbines be helpful as well, granted however this does depend on your local meta as mine for example is swarming with Mechanized lists (Space Marin Gladius, Ork Trukk lists, Eldar Wave Serpent Spam ect.) so I have found the Arc rifles to be a must add in all my lists thusfar.

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

 

 

 

Eventually I will collect enough to run my Vanguard in Squads of x5 or x10 with either Plasma Calivers, Arc Rifles or Naked as I love the idea of having that kind of flexibility. And no, its definitely a viable option however I do have to disagree somewhat with your assessment that they are totally useless against big creatures or heavy infantry. In some cases I have found having that much AP2 to be invaluable and having the S6 Arc Rifles help make up for the lack of 6's when rolling to wound with the Carbines be helpful as well, granted however this does depend on your local meta as mine for example is swarming with Mechanized lists (Space Marin Gladius, Ork Trukk lists, Eldar Wave Serpent Spam ect.) so I have found the Arc rifles to be a must add in all my lists thusfar.

 

 

Have yet to play try it out, but I would think that kataphrons would be better carriers of arc or plasma.  Unless the plan is for a pure skitarii force then I could see the use of sprinkling special weapons here and there. But I would agree that it is local meta dependent.  

[Xisor]

I ran an 800pt list that has roughly:

-10 van with three plasma

-10 van with three arc rifle

-10 van naked

-2*5 rangers w/2TA

 

It's not optimised for much other than being an 800pts chunk. Nevertheless, I like the idea of the Naked Squad.

 

Not only for the reasons folk have outlined, but knowing their value is reduced, and knowing the others have a chunk of points sunk in them that can just be blown away by a good squad's sneeze, I find it an allowance and mandate to really run the naked squad as an aggressive brawling squad. Apply more pressure and with more moxxy, but also taking the heat off of the better armed squads.

 

Better, that weight of fire from nine rad rifles is sheer joy.

[Master Avoghai]

 

 

 

 

Eventually I will collect enough to run my Vanguard in Squads of x5 or x10 with either Plasma Calivers, Arc Rifles or Naked as I love the idea of having that kind of flexibility. And no, its definitely a viable option however I do have to disagree somewhat with your assessment that they are totally useless against big creatures or heavy infantry. In some cases I have found having that much AP2 to be invaluable and having the S6 Arc Rifles help make up for the lack of 6's when rolling to wound with the Carbines be helpful as well, granted however this does depend on your local meta as mine for example is swarming with Mechanized lists (Space Marin Gladius, Ork Trukk lists, Eldar Wave Serpent Spam ect.) so I have found the Arc rifles to be a must add in all my lists thusfar.

 

 

Have yet to play try it out, but I would think that kataphrons would be better carriers of arc or plasma.  Unless the plan is for a pure skitarii force then I could see the use of sprinkling special weapons here and there. But I would agree that it is local meta dependent.  

 

I don't agree about the kataphrons being better carrier of plasma... Actually I put plasma on my kataphrons to make my list light when I face a newbie or someone playing a fun list... Why would I play plasma on kataphron when I have the option to play grav cannon?

As for the heavy arc... that seems a little meh... Heavy 2 if I don't mistake... Even if the range is better 6 shots on BS3 is not what I call "better"

Moreover, you're reasonning here with a mixed army cult mecha/skitarii... But when playing more skitarii those options don't exist ;)

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

-snip

Have yet to play try it out, but I would think that kataphrons would be better carriers of arc or plasma. Unless the plan is for a pure skitarii force then I could see the use of sprinkling special weapons here and there. But I would agree that it is local meta dependent.

I don't agree about the kataphrons being better carrier of plasma... Actually I put plasma on my kataphrons to make my list light when I face a newbie or someone playing a fun list... Why would I play plasma on kataphron when I have the option to play grav cannon?

As for the heavy arc... that seems a little meh... Heavy 2 if I don't mistake... Even if the range is better 6 shots on BS3 is not what I call "better"

Moreover, you're reasonning here with a mixed army cult mecha/skitarii... But when playing more skitarii those options don't exist

I too think the Grav cannon is a better all round option unless your opponent has a low save army in which case the plasma blasts may be better.

Heavy 2 does not matter since the Kata's get what is essentially relentless iirc. Canticles can help with the BS3.

I did reason with skitarii/cult combo in mind but I did bring up the fact that if running a pure skitarii force it would be different (see red text)

[Master Avoghai]

Yup didn't noticed your remark about pure skitarii but I remain very dubious about the heavy arc rifle. What bother me with the Heavy 2 is not the heavy part (everybody is retentless anyway) but the 2 shots. It makes "only" 3 hits. On a skitarii squad it makes 2 hits at 24" and 4 hits within 12"... 

Canticles can make a difference sure... But so do doctrine imperatives ;)

[Tyriks]

You are forgetting though that vanguard are t3 w1 with 4+ armor. Kataphrons are t5 w2 with 3+ armor. I don't think I have ever seen a unit that couldn't easily kill ten vanguard, but kataphrons are much more resilient. Also they get free arc claws if they fail to finish a target and are close enough (which isn't great but has made enough of a difference to win me a game before). At almost the same points cost (kataphrons are one melta bomb more than 3 arc vanguard squad, one less if you have an omnispex), I'd prefer my special weapons to be on the much harder to kill unit than the guys made of pre-chipped glass.

 

And on top of that, the vanguard have to get 12" closer, so the already more vulnerable unit has to expose itself more (and a lot more To get rapid fire!). Vanguard are decent with arc but kataphrons are a better investment. The only times vanguard are better are when you are in the enemy's face and they don't care (even then with charge option kataphrons might win), or when there's tons of grav. They are even more superior with plasma - Kataphrons are cheaper than a 3 plasma vanguard squad, are longer range and blast 2 instead of assault 3 (will usually do a lot more damage with fewer chances to get hot) and are more likely to survive a gets hot roll.

 

Tl;dr vanguard are good with special weapons but kataphrons are almost always better with that weapon.

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

You can also heal the lost wound on the kata's with the tech priest.

 

 I feel like the anti-vehicle work can be done better elsewhere. Not saying arc rifles on vanguards are bad "you're trading the possibility for auto-wounds for increased range, more reliable-to-get saveable wounds, and anti-vehicle ability".  Shamelessly stole that from the 1d4chan tactics page on skitarii which I recommend as its a pretty good breakdown of everything (meme's aside), makes an argument for either and I agree with it in that it all depends what you plan the rest of your army to be. I intend on running bare bones vanguard because I wanna drown the enemy in rads and plan for the rest of my army to pick up the slack against vehicles.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

So which would be best for a Squad in a dominus maniple? I had been thinking rangers, but now it seems that vanguard are pretty reliable at causing wounds to big things. Since S3 guns can normally only hurt S6 and below (I rarely see anything over T6, so it's never come up).

 

Which would you take, naked vanguard (especially in light of only getting 1 of each Special weapon) seems like a good take.

[Master Avoghai]

You are forgetting though that vanguard are t3 w1 with 4+ armor. Kataphrons are t5 w2 with 3+ armor. I don't think I have ever seen a unit that couldn't easily kill ten vanguard, but kataphrons are much more resilient. Also they get free arc claws if they fail to finish a target and are close enough (which isn't great but has made enough of a difference to win me a game before). At almost the same points cost (kataphrons are one melta bomb more than 3 arc vanguard squad, one less if you have an omnispex), I'd prefer my special weapons to be on the much harder to kill unit than the guys made of pre-chipped glass.

 

And on top of that, the vanguard have to get 12" closer, so the already more vulnerable unit has to expose itself more (and a lot more To get rapid fire!). Vanguard are decent with arc but kataphrons are a better investment. The only times vanguard are better are when you are in the enemy's face and they don't care (even then with charge option kataphrons might win), or when there's tons of grav. They are even more superior with plasma - Kataphrons are cheaper than a 3 plasma vanguard squad, are longer range and blast 2 instead of assault 3 (will usually do a lot more damage with fewer chances to get hot) and are more likely to survive a gets hot roll.

 

Tl;dr vanguard are good with special weapons but kataphrons are almost always better with that weapon.

I didn't forget. I haven't made the stats but you have 6 W with kataphrons and 11 with vanguards don't you? And when you lose 2W, you lose arc rifles shots with the kataphrons whereas even if you lose 4W with vanguards, you still have your entire arc rifle pool...

 

Actually I think the arc rifles on Vanguards are nice to get S6 against some T5 models and not leaving them without solution when you face armour heavy armies. I totally agree about the plasma : plasma calivers are good only in war convoc when you don't pay for them and don't overheat.

 

But Actually what you are saying is close of one of my point : 

 

 

 

• Ironstriders and onagers already fulfill the anti tank role very well with those neutron laser and cavalry lances

 

We can add that kataphrons can also fulfill the role and you can even count on kastelan to destroy tank in CC..

 

So I think that even more in a mixed army, playing vanguard bareboned is a nice option.

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

I love the flexibility of the skitarii and admech, it's one of the things that drew me to the army (aside that I've wanted to play admech since 3rd when I saw those skullz program admech models)