Kill Team Special Rule- Am I Missing Something?

[KiltedMarine]

The Kill Team special rule indicates that units in a formation with the rule must deploy as one unit and "cannot split up" during the game.

 

What advantage does one gain by using Vanguard Vets or bikers in these units? Aren't they limited to moving alongside the regular infantry models? Somebody explain what I'm missing, because this seems like a waste of points to me, and the formations don't make any sense as a result.

[KiltedMarine]

Okay, I see that Heroic Intervention allows VV models to give their unit a re-roll of one or both dice, and lets the unit ignore penalties for disordered charges. That's pretty cool. Bikers have split fire, which also doesn't suck, but the inability for these models to use their full movement still seems like a big loss.

[Xenith]

They also get the unit skilled rider or something.

 

If you don't want to use the combined units, then just use a regulR CAD.

 

the formation bonuses should offset any upset you have at losing movement.

[shandwen]

It is a big loss, but they don't pay that many points to give the rules to the whole squad.  Just one 3 pt more expensive (than a regular vet) you get a van-vet who grants rules, and gets cheaper power weapons... it makes an interesting tradeoff, even if it does reduce transport options.

[HandofAnubis]

I was wondering about this as well. The codex goes on and on in the fluff about the bikers heading out ahead of their teams and the Vanguard Vets using theirs jump packs to gain strategic vantage points to plan their precision strikes and then all the kill teams hinder all their movement, whats up with that? If you have to use  a CAD you loose all the kill team and formation bonuses.

[wildweasel]

They can't break coherency, but they can use their 12" moves to extend the footprint of their unit in ways a unit of just 6" moves can't. It can give additional range to set up a charge, allow you to keep an expensively armed Vanguard Vet towards the back on approach, then jump up closer before making a charge, manipulate which models in a target unit is closer for wound allocation from shooting.

[Tyriks]

Also a bike is still t5 (which is nice) and doesn't having one jump pack in a unit allow the whole unit to reroll charge ranges?

[wildweasel]

Also a bike is still t5 (which is nice) and doesn't having one jump pack in a unit allow the whole unit to reroll charge ranges?

 

Yes, a biker is T5, but majority Toughness means that won't be relevant vary often.

 

Yes, a single Jump Infantry model in a unit using it's jump move to assault allows the unit to reroll the charge - but the Vanguard Vet's Heroic Intervention allows the unit to always roll one or both charge dice regardless of when jumps are used - so it's just move 12" or get Hammer of Wrath.

[Xenith]

They can't break coherency, but they can use their 12" moves to extend the footprint of their unit in ways a unit of just 6" moves can't. It can give additional range to set up a charge, allow you to keep an expensively armed Vanguard Vet towards the back on approach, then jump up closer before making a charge, manipulate which models in a target unit is closer for wound allocation from shooting.

All of these are pretty key in low model count armies.

 

Having the van vet at the back safe from shooting allows him to jump to the front right before a charge.

 

Likewise, the bike can ensure its always in the optimum position to shoot the other target.

[Goonbandito]

Terminators have Fearless, which applies to the whole unit.

 

Bikers have Skilled Rider and Split Fire, both of which apply to the whole unit.  Split Fire lets you shoot one model in the unit at a different target which doesn't have to be the Biker.  Obviously the +1 Jink Saves from Skilled Rider isn't particularly useful to a unit of Infantry, but auto passing Dangerous Terrain tests is nice (Jump Infantry have to take Dangerous Terrain tests when they use their Jump Packs in Difficult Terrain...)

 

Vanguard Veterans have Heroic Intervention, which lets you re-roll charge distance for the entire unit.

 

Corvus Blackstar's can transport Bikes and Jump Infantry, and are Dedicated Transports for Veterans at that, so at least there is still a Transport option available.

[Spinsanity]

Does the fact the unit ignores dangerous terrain affect Deep Strike? Can they scatter onto terrain and deploy there withoutt a hitch because of the biker?

[Goonbandito]

Does the fact the unit ignores dangerous terrain affect Deep Strike? Can they scatter onto terrain and deploy there withoutt a hitch because of the biker?

Yep.  Note they'll still suffer Mishaps as normal, just they'll auto-pass dangerous terrain checks for scattering into difficult terrain.

[Vel'Cona]

I was wondering about this as well. The codex goes on and on in the fluff about the bikers heading out ahead of their teams and the Vanguard Vets using theirs jump packs to gain strategic vantage points to plan their precision strikes and then all the kill teams hinder all their movement, whats up with that? If you have to use a CAD you loose all the kill team and formation bonuses.

Not all, though. You can take any of the Kill Teams as independent Formations alongside a CAD, and all you lose is the BSSF bonuses (which aren't that great anyway). Remember, each Formation is a detachment of its own, so the only real restriction is how many detachments the event or local gaming scene prefer you to take.

I think maybe I'll have to start a post about why the CAD is so good for C:DW since it seems to keep coming up . . .

[wildweasel]

I was wondering about this as well. The codex goes on and on in the fluff about the bikers heading out ahead of their teams and the Vanguard Vets using theirs jump packs to gain strategic vantage points to plan their precision strikes and then all the kill teams hinder all their movement, whats up with that? If you have to use a CAD you loose all the kill team and formation bonuses.

Not all, though. You can take any of the Kill Teams as independent Formations alongside a CAD, and all you lose is the BSSF bonuses (which aren't that great anyway). Remember, each Formation is a detachment of its own, so the only real restriction is how many detachments the event or local gaming scene prefer you to take.

I think maybe I'll have to start a post about why the CAD is so good for C:DW since it seems to keep coming up . . .

ObSec Sternguard+ are hardly terrible ;)

I think for larger pure DW armies, a CAD + BSSF may be the way to go. The BSSF gives you the extra MT switch and the ability to deep strike key units if desired. The CAD gives you ObSec and pure bike/VV/Terminator units.

[Sete]

I dont think I will even use formations.

 

Just CAD.

 

Drop pods, rhinos and Land Raiders.

 

Maybe ill make a full Black Shield Company :)

[Irbis]

I dont think I will even use formations.

Just CAD.

Drop pods, rhinos and Land Raiders.

Maybe ill make a full Black Shield Company

Why would you want to ever use CAD when BSSF gets to layer three different bonuses on top of your units? Kill team/Watch company/BSSF bonus granting, between others, such things as rerolling to wound, making your small units far more reliable and efficient, rerolling 1s to hit (can you say massed combi-plasma?), and, more importantly, granting deep strike to everything (except dreads, sadly) meaning you effectively get free drop pods if you include (cheaply available) reserve manipulation?

There is no unit in the game capable of surviving 4+ turns within 12 inches of properly tooled DW squad, and these few that can, will annihilate your small (due to all the extra tax CAD has to take) unit before OS ever comes into play. I'd rather have more bodies on table to ensure I have things capable of scoring and enemy does not, than praying to dice gods that my 5 men squad (which is what CAD takes) on objective survives to make use of OS.

[wildweasel]

I dont think I will even use formations.

Just CAD.

Drop pods, rhinos and Land Raiders.

Maybe ill make a full Black Shield Company

Why would you want to ever use CAD when BSSF gets to layer three different bonuses on top of your units? Kill team/Watch company/BSSF bonus granting, between others, such things as rerolling to wound, making your small units far more reliable and efficient, rerolling 1s to hit (can you say massed combi-plasma?), and, more importantly, granting deep strike to everything (except dreads, sadly) meaning you effectively get free drop pods if you include (cheaply available) reserve manipulation?

There is no unit in the game capable of surviving 4+ turns within 12 inches of properly tooled DW squad, and these few that can, will annihilate your small (due to all the extra tax CAD has to take) unit before OS ever comes into play. I'd rather have more bodies on table to ensure I have things capable of scoring and enemy does not, than praying to dice gods that my 5 men squad (which is what CAD takes) on objective survives to make use of OS.

Objective Secured.

Pure bike, VV, Terminator units.

Not having to build to KT patterns and restrictions.

BSSF deep strikes still don't start turn 1, and don't have the insurance of inertial guidance (plus ObSec drop pods are doupleplus good).

ETA: And ya know, Vet squads can be more than 5 models. And are part of a larger army.

ETAA: Or just, ya know, doesn't wanna bother with tracking fiddly formation rules.

Edited August 17, 2016 by wildweasel

[General Strike]

I agree with wild weasel, I bssf is worth it, can't you just take a kill team on it's own alongside a CAD if you want one?

[unerde]

Sure you can.

 

My way to go is CAD + 2-3 Aquila Killteams.

 

If I'd go with the bssf, I'd need at least one Libby and one dreadnought as Tax.

[Vel'Cona]

If I'd go with the bssf, I'd need at least one Libby and one dreadnought as Tax.

I'd agree on the Dreadnought, but DW Librarians are easily our best HQ/compulsory IC choice and ours in particular have the bonus of Mission Tactics (making our BS based Witchfires more accurate than other SM Libbies). For 70 points, you get access to a ton of awesome offensive and defensive powers; if you think about it, that's only 10-15 points more than a Veteran with a special, melee or heavy weapon upgrade (and you get a free Force Weapon!).