Recommended Breacher loadout

[ChainMachete]

So I've got a couple of the breacher upgrade kits coming from Forge World and want to turn some of my plastic Mk IV marines into breachers. Two upgrade kits gives me enough bits to build a maximum of 12 breachers.

 

I've never used breachers before or played Zone Mortalis (though I want to), so I'm looking for advice on how to build these. I'll be running them as Word Bearers, probably accompanied by either Hol Beloth for the one-time WS5 and general close-combat killyness or Zardu Layak (without his Bladeslaves) for fearless and psychic summoning. And the intention is to kit them out primarily for Zone Mortalis Games, though I may occasionally end up using them in other games, so they need to be all-rounders.

 

I'll make sure all of them are built with ammo pouches, so I can say that's where the melta-bombs are if I decide to use them. My sergeant will be built using the Word Bearers torso & head upgrade, so that's artificer armour covered and I'm pretty certain I want to give him a breacher charge.

 

However I really need to decide on a special weapon for the squad. 10-12 breachers gives me two weapons. Not too keen on Graviton Guns because they're Heavy 1 Blast weapons and I tend to play fairly aggressively, advancing forwards until I find something to kill, so it's likely I'll end up never firing them. So it's either Flamers or Meltaguns. I can see advantages for both, but I'd love to hear from people who have actually used them in ZM games before I decide. Since each upgrade kit builds 6 rather than 5 breachers, I guess I could build 2 of each, but that seems a little wasteful if one option turns out significantly more useful than the other. I'd also like to build one of my breachers with a Nuncio Vox for when they run with Zardu and I want to summon some daemons. And having a couple of extra bodies as potential Sacrfice victims to make Heralds is always helpful as well - doubling up means I can never run with all 12 of them. But with Hol Beloth, I'll probably just run with 10 of them and no Vox.

 

I also need to decide on an upgrade (if any) for the Sergeant. Sensible options seem to be nothing (keep him cheap and use his artificer armour to tank wounds, though I guess he's never going to be that cheap if I give him a Breacher Charge and Melta-bombs), a Combi-weapon to match the chosen special weapon of the squad, Power Axe, Power Fist or Thunder Hammer. I'm tempted towards a Power Fist, but think an axe or hammer would look cooler. If I don't give him the fist or hammer, he'll probably also have melta-bombs, since I want some protection against the inevitable Contemptor. Again looking for some advice on what would work best in a TAC ZM list.

 

Looking forward to hearing what you think would work best.

 

 

 

[IronDrake28]

There's a thread called 'Effective use of breachers' that you should check out, it's one page back in this Tactica sub-forum.

[Aquila]

There's two types of players in Horus Heresy.

 

Players that pretend breachers are good or 'specialized for zone mortalis' because of how cool looking the models are, and players that don't bother using them because they're garbage.

 

If you are determined to run them, there's really only one choice that makes sense - Grav.  They're the only troops choice that can bring grav to the table, and it's the only thing they have access to that other troops don't.  Any other choice can be done better, for cheaper, by other units.  Avoid most upgrades - powerfist or thunderhammer on the sarge is ok, combos well with the shields to deter assaults.  Stick with ten man squads.  Extra bolters aren't going to do anything for you.

 

If you want flamers or meltas, bring support squads or veterans.  For the same points cost you can get a full squad of the insanely superior veterans with the same weapons, or a support squad of ten special weapons.  Depending on your breacher upgrades, you'd probably have enough left over points for a transport too.

[Dono1979]

 

Players that pretend breachers are good or 'specialized for zone mortalis' because of how cool looking the models are

 

 

 

wow, thank god most of our players like pretending things when they play Heresy.

[Slips]

I'll have to go ahead and challenge your sweeping statement and ask you to provide some proof/facts, Aquila, because that is very much not the case.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Well they are expensive points wise for what you get... I think he gave some good reasons to justify his statement. I'm sure they can work though in the right build. :)

[Terminus]

Breachers were "okay" when loaded up with FNP, Vigilator scout and stealth, and Infiltrate from before the update. It's a 550 point module that doesn't do too much, but it does anchor a part of the field with denial. If you have a fortification with tank traps, it works even better.

 

However, the above super rules stacking unit was barely acceptable, but with the cost rebalances this unit IMO is dead on arrival like 9/10 non-terminator/artificer unique units. Assault marines with shields basically cost the same, it's madness. Imperial Fists can still get some use out of them, and I have some ideas about Outlander Breachers in pariah armor, but for the most part they are a fluff unit. I have a "defensive/funsies" variant of my coils list that uses the above unit and a 10MkIII volkite culverin squad. Wicked fun.

 

That said, with the new cost reduction on minimum units and the new Breacher rite for 5+/4+ invulnerable, they are actually very good in Zone Mortalis.

[Plaguecaster]

Breachers were "okay" when loaded up with FNP, Vigilator scout and stealth, and Infiltrate from before the update. It's a 550 point module that doesn't do too much, but it does anchor a part of the field with denial. If you have a fortification with tank traps, it works even better.

 

However, the above super rules stacking unit was barely acceptable, but with the cost rebalances this unit IMO is dead on arrival like 9/10 non-terminator/artificer unique units. Assault marines with shields basically cost the same, it's madness. Imperial Fists can still get some use out of them, and I have some ideas about Outlander Breachers in pariah armor, but for the most part they are a fluff unit. I have a "defensive/funsies" variant of my coils list that uses the above unit and a 10MkIII volkite culverin squad. Wicked fun.

 

That said, with the new cost reduction on minimum units and the new Breacher rite for 5+/4+ invulnerable, they are actually very good in Zone Mortalis.

There is a breacher rite?????

[Slips]

Yessir. Also makes Terminators Non-Compulsory Troops but you can't have any non-walker vehicles in the RoW.

[Plaguecaster]

Huh I never noticed lol :D never really paid much attention to rites since more black shield player, Is it only able to be used for zone mortalis games or can I use it for normal Heresy games??? (More for non comp terminator troops) Since it doesn't say monstrous creatures can I include Automata through a Praevian

[Marshal Loss]

I run 1x10 with 2x chem-flamer and a combi chem-flamer as part of my DG in ZM games and they've done brilliantly so far.

[Slips]

Huh I never noticed lol never really paid much attention to rites since more black shield player, Is it only able to be used for zone mortalis games or can I use it for normal Heresy games??? (More for non comp terminator troops) Since it doesn't say monstrous creatures can I include Automata through a Praevian

For the MC's, it depends on the wording but I know you can't have any on a 60mm or Bigger base.

Now, I don't 100% know if this also discounts MC's on 60mm bases, but I don't think it would.

Otherwise, yes to everything. While its best used for ZM due to its restrictions, nothing's stopping you from running it in normal games. Just remember, no transports of any kind which can neuter you preeeeetty significantly.

[Plaguecaster]

Huh I never noticed lol never really paid much attention to rites since more black shield player, Is it only able to be used for zone mortalis games or can I use it for normal Heresy games??? (More for non comp terminator troops) Since it doesn't say monstrous creatures can I include Automata through a Praevian

For the MC's, it depends on the wording but I know you can't have any on a 60mm or Bigger base.

Now, I don't 100% know if this also discounts MC's on 60mm bases, but I don't think it would.

Otherwise, yes to everything. While its best used for ZM due to its restrictions, nothing's stopping you from running it in normal games. Just remember, no transports of any kind which can neuter you preeeeetty significantly.

Sweet just a shame the +1 to the inv was only for ZM

[ChainMachete]

 

Breachers were "okay" when loaded up with FNP, Vigilator scout and stealth, and Infiltrate from before the update. It's a 550 point module that doesn't do too much, but it does anchor a part of the field with denial. If you have a fortification with tank traps, it works even better.

 

However, the above super rules stacking unit was barely acceptable, but with the cost rebalances this unit IMO is dead on arrival like 9/10 non-terminator/artificer unique units. Assault marines with shields basically cost the same, it's madness. Imperial Fists can still get some use out of them, and I have some ideas about Outlander Breachers in pariah armor, but for the most part they are a fluff unit. I have a "defensive/funsies" variant of my coils list that uses the above unit and a 10MkIII volkite culverin squad. Wicked fun.

 

That said, with the new cost reduction on minimum units and the new Breacher rite for 5+/4+ invulnerable, they are actually very good in Zone Mortalis.

There is a breacher rite?????

 

 

That was my plan - form a core with 5 Tartaros Terminators and ~10 Breachers using the new Zone Mortalis rite, then add other stuff to taste. Either Hol Beloth or Zardu Layek give me Master of the Legion to run the rite.

 

I already have 10 Tartaros Terminators built (Sergeant and one other with with Chainfist & Combi-bolter, 2 with Power Axe & Heavy Flamer, 2 with Power Axe & Combi-bolter, 2 with Power Fist & Combi-bolter, 2 with dual Lightning Claws). I was looking for advice on how to build my new Breachers. I can't see me buying any more, so I'd like to get the loadout right from the start.

 

I know they are not very competitive outside a Zone Mortalis game, but would probably only use them in a normal game for fun or to de-cheese what would otherwise be an overly powerful list. So the loadout needs to be focused on Zone Mortalis.

 

Still undecided on Flamers vs. Meltaguns.

 

After doing some thinking, I've definitely decided that I want my sergeant to have a Breacher Charge because it sounds like so much fun, but that means he can't use his close-combat weapon for his first turn of combat. I'm wondering if it's even worth spending points on a Power Weapon, Fist or Thunder Hammer. Does anyone who uses Breacher Charges think it's worth the additional 10-20 points for one of these? If that's true, then it's either a Combi-weapon or nothing. For a Combi-weapon, I either need to match the special weapon of the squad (Combi-flamer or Combi-melta and I still need to decide what that special weapon is) or go Combi-plasma just because plasma is always good in a Zone Mortalis game.

[Caillum]

Meltaguns are still a great weapon in 30k. They can double out (nearly) all Marines, and they'll help with bulkheads and Dreadnoughts/Contemptors.

[01RTB01]

I run mine with dual meltas and despite the amount of ceramite about they're still very good. Still get +2 on the damage table. I'm all for them :)

[Dr. Clock]

Loadout depends on other things in the list mostly... but looking at them on their own, melta seems to make most sense as their bolters are already decent for crowd clearance. Breachers are in a bit of a weird spot where they've got extra defense, but only vs. higher tier enemies (AP3/2), and they're not any more effective on the offense than a tactical squad. This is why they're not super efficient IMO - 4/5 times, their benefits over a tactical marine are not actually helpful on the open field.

 

Still - as a troops choice with access to special weapons, Breachers do fine for a bit of variety, and they are quite good in Z:M. I tend toward Pride of the Legion and just tonnes of Veterans for Z:M, but as part of your Spearhead with an embedded character, Breachers do well as an anchor unit.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Aquila]

wow, thank god most of our players like pretending things when they play Heresy.

Hey don't get me wrong - I love the look of breachers too. It's not like I'm going to judge anyone for playing them. I love the fact that 30k is not seen as much of a 'competitive' game, and that you can for the most part play what looks fun or cool for narrative reasons. I'm all for that. But it's a tactics thread, and when someone is asking if something is good or not, I think they should be able to expect an honest answer. And the sad fact is that, the rules for breachers are not good and they are overcosted heavily for what they can actually do. If they didn't look as cool as they do, no one would run them.

There's just something about breachers that makes people constantly advocate for them in tactics discussions and disregard their huge downsides. In that regard I believe they are the most polarizing unit in the game (with the possible exception of Destroyers )

I'll have to go ahead and challenge your sweeping statement and ask you to provide some proof/facts, Aquila, because that is very much not the case.

Wasn't exactly a sweeping statement, I was certainly direct but my point is pretty straight forward. Specifically, any loadout other than grav can be done cheaper and better by other similar units. If you bring a ten man Breacher unit with meltas or flamers, you can do it cheaper with Veterans, and the Veterans bring some pretty outstanding special rules to the table too. Or go the other direction, bring a support squad with 10 special weapons instead. You can probably afford a rhino or drop pod too depending on the specifics.

If you'd like, suggest a loadout that you think is effective, and we can stack it up against the equivalent points value of Veterans/Support Squad/Terminators and see how they compare. I'm open to new ideas.

[Terminus]

Even with the grav option which I have used, a grav rapier is usually a better bet while being a good bit cheaper, more resilient to shooting, mobile, and not as dependent on infiltrate and scout.

[ChainMachete]

Thanks for the advice guys, I've put together a couple of alternate lists and posted them in the Army List forum. Should give the flamer vs. melta question more context. Both lists use Zardu rather than Hol Beloth, but I'm hoping that bit of the list will be fairly interchangeable if I can just get the Breacher loadout decided.

[Aquila]

Hmm... here's a question for you.  In Zone Mortalis, blast weapons get Shred.  The Grav blast triggers a strength test on hit.  Does the weapon benefit from Shred in any way?  I'm thinking no, but I've never considered it before.

[IronDrake28]

Hmm... here's a question for you. In Zone Mortalis, blast weapons get Shred. The Grav blast triggers a strength test on hit. Does the weapon benefit from Shred in any way? I'm thinking no, but I've never considered it before.

Nope, a Strength test isn't a To Wound roll.