Deathwatch: black shields

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

An original Blackshield from the heresy era would never live long enough to see the 41st millennium.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

 

One small note, the Fallen are the loyalists and the Unforgiven are the traitors. DA and their successors hunt the only ones that know the truth, that the Lion turned from the Emperor. A Fallen hidding as a Black Shield is not looking for redemption, they are looking for companionship and a place to be an Astartes with fellow brothers in arms.

SJ

Wait, what? Since when are the Unforgiven the traitors?

Since the Heresy.

SJ

There's nothing to support your claim.

[Commander Dawnstar]

Oh cool, didn't know that. Which volume is that in and is it accompanied by much fluff? I have a bit of a soft spot for the KoB.

 

Successors and the like were covered in Rites of Battle, but I'm afraid there isn't really anything new there for you if you already know your stuff. It's basically just a summary of the chapter's history and motivations, one almost identical to that on the 40k wiki, followed by a couple of paragraphs that are an extended (but still deliberately vague) version of what the wiki has on their involvement in the Achilus Crusade. It's a nice enough introduction to the chapter, but there isn't anything in the book that you can't find elsewhere.

 

Rites of Battle actually features among its pre-made characters a Black Shield who rose to the rank of Chaplain while serving the Deathwatch.

[jeffersonian000]

 

 

 

One small note, the Fallen are the loyalists and the Unforgiven are the traitors. DA and their successors hunt the only ones that know the truth, that the Lion turned from the Emperor. A Fallen hidding as a Black Shield is not looking for redemption, they are looking for companionship and a place to be an Astartes with fellow brothers in arms.

SJ

Wait, what? Since when are the Unforgiven the traitors?

Since the Heresy.

SJ

There's nothing to support your claim.

Except there is. Interviews with Gav Thorpe and Dan Abnett have covered that the Dark Angels are in fact a traitor legion hiding as loyalists. The HH DA books have been moving forward with that storyline, with numerous hints from the authors that it is true. But it's okay to doubt, just don't get upset over it being true.

 

SJ

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

 

 

One small note, the Fallen are the loyalists and the Unforgiven are the traitors. DA and their successors hunt the only ones that know the truth, that the Lion turned from the Emperor. A Fallen hidding as a Black Shield is not looking for redemption, they are looking for companionship and a place to be an Astartes with fellow brothers in arms.

SJ

Wait, what? Since when are the Unforgiven the traitors?

Since the Heresy.

SJ

There's nothing to support your claim.

Except there is. Interviews with Gav Thorpe and Dan Abnett have covered that the Dark Angels are in fact a traitor legion hiding as loyalists. The HH DA books have been moving forward with that storyline, with numerous hints from the authors that it is true. But it's okay to doubt, just don't get upset over it being true.

 

SJ

 

Care to site it then, beyond ephemeral 'interviews'? I was under the impression that the HH series had done a reasonable job presenting the Lion as emphatically loyal. Naive and idiotic, maybe, but loyal nevertheless.

 

Besides, the conspiracy theory always used to be 'the Lion was sitting it out, waiting to see who would win' rather than 'the Lion is a Traitor'. And that seemed to be spawned on the word of a Fallen being taken as gospel to begin with. Or are you using traitor here in the more general use, rather than 'sided with the Warmaster against the Emperor'?

[Canadian_F_H]

It is possible the lion was loyal while his legion was not, since he hasn't been able to give his side of things for 10k years...

 

 

As for the remark that no marines from the horus heresy could still be alive, that's exactly what the fallen are.

 

There is an official precedent for a horus heresy marine being tossed forwards in time for millenia via warp shenanigans. If it happened to thousands of dark angels it can happen to a handful from any legion...

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

 

 

 

One small note, the Fallen are the loyalists and the Unforgiven are the traitors. DA and their successors hunt the only ones that know the truth, that the Lion turned from the Emperor. A Fallen hidding as a Black Shield is not looking for redemption, they are looking for companionship and a place to be an Astartes with fellow brothers in arms.

SJ

Wait, what? Since when are the Unforgiven the traitors?

Since the Heresy.

SJ

There's nothing to support your claim.

Except there is. Interviews with Gav Thorpe and Dan Abnett have covered that the Dark Angels are in fact a traitor legion hiding as loyalists. The HH DA books have been moving forward with that storyline, with numerous hints from the authors that it is true. But it's okay to doubt, just don't get upset over it being true.

 

SJ

I see you like to make things up. Okay I'll stop feeding this troll . You have no real proof to give but I guess that's okay here .

 

The few fallen still left are chaos tainted and I don't think Deathwatch would be recruiting them.

[Commander Dawnstar]

As much as I loathe to get involved in this extended discussion (and I deliberately omitted this point before precisely for that reason) it's heavily implied that the aforementioned Black Shield turned Chaplain from FFG's Deathwatch RPG was actually one of the Fallen.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Okay we can imply many many things. And that won't even get you a small cup of Jove.

[Commander Dawnstar]

Oh certainly, but the evidence was convincing enough for a Dark Angel to have submitted himself to serve at Watch Station Erioch purely because all signs pointed towards his quarry having sought sanctuary in the company of the Deathwatch. That hardly makes it a certain thing, but it was presented as a very real possibility.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That Dark Angels would doubt their chapter is a stain against them not the legion.

[jeffersonian000]

Well, Dan Abnett mentioned it on the After Ullanor podcast titled "Dan Abnett interview", and Gav Thorpe mentioned in the Mob Rules Mobcast podcast titled "Episode 10: Gav Thorpe spills the beans ..."

 

In the Dan Abnett interview, he discusses the Alpha Legion's place in the Heresy, and how they came to the choice they made. In an off-hand statement he confirmed that the Dark Angel were indeed a traitor legion hidding on the loyalist side much the same way the Alpha Legion was a loyalist legion posing as traitors. Dan pointed out were the hints at the Lion's betrayal have been dropped into the storyline.

 

In the Gav Thorpe interview, when asked if he played Dark Angels since he writes novals covering them, Gav stated that he did not, saying "I don't play traitors". This sparked off a discussion over the hints that already exist, although Gav was being evasive when asked on specifics.

 

So no, I have not made anything up.

 

A Fallen as a Black Shield in a Kill Team with an Unforgiven is the height of 40k teaser fluff.

 

SJ

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The latest Ravenwing novel ends with the RW capturing a fallen nurgle sorcerer after a long dragnet. I guess according to you someone in the chapter must has missed the memo right Jeffyson ?

[jeffersonian000]

The latest Ravenwing novel ends with the RW capturing a fallen nurgle sorcerer after a long dragnet. I guess according to you someone in the chapter must has missed the memo right Jeffyson ?

Not sure why you are being caty. To my knowledge, the only chapter with members that have never fallen to chaos are Grey Knights. Per the fluff on the Fallen, quite a few have become tainted by the Warp. Also per the fluff, only the inner circle of the Unforgiven and the Fallen know the truth, which means the vast majority of the Unforgiven are loyal.

 

SJ

[Prot]

Okay that's enough on the Dark Angel conversation. Please take it outside of the Deathwatch forum, and let's steer this one back on topic.

 

Thank you.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Well said brother.

[Cleon]

 

Have to say, I don't get the enthusiasm for Astral Knights as Blackshields. Where's the humiliation and shame in being left on Obsidia, when it was a legitimate order from Chapter command? Especially given the attitude of the Chapter in the World Engine novel, the few survivors would wear the colours proudly, not shy away from the glorious legacy of their Chapter. Hell, I agree the Astral Knights in the DW is an ace idea, just not as Blackshields. I want to make my Watch Commander an Astral Knight for precisely this reason.

 

I don't think the 30 survivors would become blackshields, but for a member of the chapter who had not been present at all (maybe in the deathwatch, maybe in a fleet escort separated in the warp and not made it back in time), then the wiki quote from the Chapter Master sums it up:

 

"Victory often rests on the correct weaponry being in the right place and at the right time. Even the most destructive weapons of war are worthless if absent from the battle."

— Artor Amhrad (deceased) Chapter Master of the Astral Knights  

 

Being called worthless by your heroic Chapter Master while losing your whole chapter, would be enough to make the Blackshield oath look an option.

[Jacques Corbin]

Ok, so a Blackshield either has subtle hints to his former chapter (hooded or SW head for example), or is otherwise plain?

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Am I the only one who likes the idea of Blackshields from loyal chapters?

[sockwithaticket]

Am I the only one who likes the idea of Blackshields from loyal chapters?

I think it's that there just aren't many credible circumstances for loyalists to renounce their Chapter's colours.

[Spinsanity]

 

Am I the only one who likes the idea of Blackshields from loyal chapters?

 

I think it's that there just aren't many credible circumstances for loyalists to renounce their Chapter's colours.

Considering how members who get xpelled/sent away on penance apparently get to keep their chapter colors (read Leonatos, Ventris(0), I too don't see why they would...

[Commander Dawnstar]

Ok, so a Blackshield either has subtle hints to his former chapter (hooded or SW head for example), or is otherwise plain?

 

I think that to a degree it's a matter of personal preference, but I would look to avoid putting any obvious cultural trappings on a Black Shield that might be a bit of a giveaway as to their Chapter. Obscuring their heraldry marks a "ritual obliterat[ion]" of their origins, past and oaths to their Chapter, so it seems a bit unfitting to have a former Space Wolf going around with the distinctive Fenrisian look after severing all ties to that part of his life. That isn't to say that it couldn't happen, and Dark Angels and the like could surely get away with wearing hoods without compromising themselves, but I would expect that most Black Shields either have a reason to hide their heritage or think themselves unworthy of representing their Chapter.

 

Am I the only one who likes the idea of Blackshields from loyal chapters?

 

Not at all, I just think that for many people the immediate response is to jump at a chance to feature more obscure choices or outcasts/renegades/traitors seeking penance rather than to look for new angles on Chapters that already have representation in the Deathwatch. You can definitely do things every bit as interesting with a Black Shield from a high-profile loyal Chapter.

 

I think it's that there just aren't many credible circumstances for loyalists to renounce their Chapter's colours.

 

Some examples from the RPG are a failure so great that the Marine seeks to bury their shame forever, refusing to follow an order in the heat of battle (potentially a suicidal or pointless one) for reasons they believed were just and subsequently no longer feeling they have a place among their Battle Brothers, exile as an extreme form of punishment (one crueler than death) or the last resort of those who have damned themselves in words or deed (giving themselves over to pride, anger or the honeyed words of the enemy) to seek some sort of absolution while absolving the Chapter of the stain upon their soul and honour.

[helterskelter]

An original Blackshield from the heresy era would never live long enough to see the 41st millennium.

There's a salamander fused to a chair in a nick Kyme novel (straight up marine, no timey wimey shenanigans), fallen (timey wimey shenanigans), dreadnoughts.

There are numerous ways for blackshields to see the 41st millennium. How much of it they see and how healthy they are, are a different story altogether

[Nomus Sardauk]

 

 

Am I the only one who likes the idea of Blackshields from loyal chapters?

 

I think it's that there just aren't many credible circumstances for loyalists to renounce their Chapter's colours.

Considering how members who get xpelled/sent away on penance apparently get to keep their chapter colors (read Leonatos, Ventris(0), I too don't see why they would...

Well maybe they don't feel worthy of bearing their Chapter's colours any longer, perhaps they were shamed in a manner so unbearable that they are cannot stand to stay & endure their brothers' scathing glares, so they voluntarily leave.

Perhaps they failed in some vital duty and were cast out by their superiors, stripped of their colours and rank as well as being wiped from the Chapter records.

Maybe their Chapter underwent a cultural transformation that the Marine in question disagreed with strongly enough that they refused to accept the new regime, and promptly left to find worthier comrades while casting aside the colours of a Chapter he no longer cared for.

[sockwithaticket]

I did say aren't many credible reasons rather than none...

Though I would question how lone marines from loyal Chapters go about leaving their company/Chapter and arriving at a Watch Fortress without the consent of Chapter command. If their crime was so egregious as to warrant banishment/self-imposed exile and not being able to show colours, how would they secure that consent? Summary execution would seem more likely as an outcome.