Ordo Machinum Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 Let's continue the "Watching Out" discussions with a focus on the seasoned Alien Hunters of the Watch: Deathwatch Veterans I want to survey the boards opinions on their relevancy and useful weapon load-outs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324803-watching-out-2-veterans/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverson Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 i'm assuming kill teams and veterans are both included in this section tho the way they operate seems vastly different to me kill teams are the new hotness of the codex that give us a unique way to combine veterans/terminators/vanguard vets and bikes, they start with 5 veterans that can be geared for the majority of situations and be really strong but trying to keep the points down with these units does become a challenge. shotguns combine well with frag cannons for some deadly close range fire power and the ability to assault afterwords if needs but even receiving a charge with this unit is not that bad as it provides a very good wall of death, stalker bolters seem to mix better with inferno heavy bolters as there longer range allows you some degree of long ranged firepower ( but this can be done a lot better by other armies), then we have the boltgun that can work with both heavy weapon types and fill the middle ground. the ability to add split fire, skilled rider,a 2+ tank and heroic intervention are all really good but this all forces to push your unit down a specific role of anti XXX. the big down fall is finding a way to utilise them as at first glance they seem perfect in the black spear strike force but when you look a little deeper problems stick out, most notably is getting to deep strike but starting from turn two means you could potentially get tabled before you get your cool units on the board, you also have no in codex access to anyway of reserve manipulation.This formation doesn't allow you to take units of terminators/vanguard veterans or bikes. and if you are not going to deep strike the kill teams then there is no point in taking the black spear strike force because objective secured is just plain better. allies can mitigate this somewhat but as a solo army this formation just doesn't do enough to make it usable on its own. Then we have the cad, with the cad things look a bit better we can take a hq and two uints of veterans that we would wanna use anyway and then can get some substance on the table in our terminator/vanguard vets, bike units with the added effect of being able to throw in forgeworld goodies to really shore up so weaknesses,all the while our cool kill teams formations/dataslates get to have a much better chance of coming down to a field that they can have a chance of doing something worth it, but then we loose deepstrike :( so we need to look at other options and our two options are drop pods and corvus black star, which both can work. this all adds up to a lot of points spent on other things other than the coolest part of the army(kill teams) as we need 2 units of veterans and an hq minimum just to give us the option of bringing the units that would of given us table presence for the black spear strikeforce to be usable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324803-watching-out-2-veterans/#findComment-4469576 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrainFireBob Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 Problem's that their cost adds up so quickly. None of their options are cheap, and their base cost is 2.20 meltabombs/model. The black shield is an interesting addition- he's not a character model, yes? Means he can't be picked out or challenged if so. Good place for your pfist/t.hammer, etc. The Infernus heavy bolter is inexplicably just better than a heavy bolter, being an assault weapon base. The shotguns/bolter thing is actually only an issue for veterans, but is huge. It makes them an excellent combat unit potentially without sacrificing their strongest asset: special issue ammo. Personally, I'll be sticking to Aquila teams of Vets+Libbies, maybe with termies added for heavy weapon options. I'm dithering on a quasi-deathstar Malleus CC team. Just so expensive! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324803-watching-out-2-veterans/#findComment-4469711 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinsanity Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 The black shield is an interesting addition- he's not a character model, yes? Means he can't be picked out or challenged if so. Good place for your pfist/t.hammer, etc.He actually is, as far as I can remember... The Infernus heavy bolter is inexplicably just better than a heavy bolter, being an assault weapon base.This one I can't quite understand. It's just better in every single possible way. You not only get an extra HF, you get the suspensor web that'd now missing from the HB... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324803-watching-out-2-veterans/#findComment-4469717 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddarz Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 I wonder if this might be foreshadowing a general change of the Heavy Bolter to Assault 3 in the future.To be honest I would be all for that.Or at least salvo. Would make them very neat and thematic Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324803-watching-out-2-veterans/#findComment-4469740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysere Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 I wonder if this might be foreshadowing a general change of the Heavy Bolter to Assault 3 in the future. To be honest I would be all for that. Or at least salvo. Would make them very neat and thematic Suspensors are a staple of Death watch with heavy weapons. You won't see regular heavy boaters get them. I'm more confused why they didn't just put in the suspensor and have the heavy bolter and missile launcher have it as well. I'm still not sure how I'd run them but I feel like they really do need to be tailored for very specific roles. Also black shields are characters but they get bonus attacks against ICs, monsters, and vehicles, also if out numbered. My only complaint is with how the entry is worded I don't think he could take a heavy thunder hammer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324803-watching-out-2-veterans/#findComment-4469793 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 How expensive will they get armed with Power Sword and Storm Bolter. That makes for 2 Shots and 4 attacks on the Charge. I like these odds. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324803-watching-out-2-veterans/#findComment-4470277 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reyner Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 How expensive will they get armed with Power Sword and Storm Bolter. That makes for 2 Shots and 4 attacks on the Charge. I like these odds. No special ammo though :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324803-watching-out-2-veterans/#findComment-4470352 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 How expensive will they get armed with Power Sword and Storm Bolter. That makes for 2 Shots and 4 attacks on the Charge. I like these odds. No special ammo though :( But close combat goodness.Also saw 20 Imperial Fists shoulder pads selling on ebay... That combined with the Yellow and sepia wash... I think they are slowly creeping into my life. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324803-watching-out-2-veterans/#findComment-4470394 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 Veterans are easily the best unit in this codex for a multitude of reasons. Let's count the ways: 1. Most cost-effective unit 2. Can take more than 5 models 3. Combat Squads 4. Have all transport options 5. ObjSec in CAD (and their Transport, too!) 6. Core of every Kill Team 7. Incredibly flexible basic firepower (special issue ammo, DW shotties) 8. No wargear limits other than 4 heavy weapons 9. Only unit with access to Frag Cannon (it's not a Grav Cannon but it's still amazing) 10. Built-in "tank" models (Storm Shields) 11. Mobile (mostly Assault/Rapid Fire ranged weapons) 12. Can Deep Strike in BSSF 13. Surprisingly accurate with smart Mission Tactic selection 14. Can be built for assault, too (not optimal but decent) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324803-watching-out-2-veterans/#findComment-4470592 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysere Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 Veterans are easily the best unit in this codex for a multitude of reasons. Let's count the ways: 1. Most cost-effective unit 2. Can take more than 5 models 3. Combat Squads 4. Have all transport options 5. ObjSec in CAD (and their Transport, too!) 6. Core of every Kill Team 7. Incredibly flexible basic firepower (special issue ammo, DW shotties) 8. No wargear limits other than 4 heavy weapons 9. Only unit with access to Frag Cannon (it's not a Grav Cannon but it's still amazing) 10. Built-in "tank" models (Storm Shields) 11. Mobile (mostly Assault/Rapid Fire ranged weapons) 12. Can Deep Strike in BSSF 13. Surprisingly accurate with smart Mission Tactic selection 14. Can be built for assault, too (not optimal but decent) The veterans are the only unit in the codex that actually feels like it's part of the death watch. Most of the others feel like they need some more character added to them, as well as options. Terminators are alright but I'd rather have them in a killteam with veterans than in their own unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324803-watching-out-2-veterans/#findComment-4470617 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverson Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 15. allow access to units of vanguard veterans, bikes and terminators in a cad 16. look bad ass in the new mk armour 17. can take a black shield Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324803-watching-out-2-veterans/#findComment-4470624 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irbis Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 Several ideas of loadouts for them I still need to try out before deciding on one: Vanilla: 5x Bolter, 5x Shotgun Can shoot then assault, can overwatch with wall of fire, access to AP3 and no cover shooting. Also cheap, but vulnerable to MCs. Spicy: 5x Bolter, 5x Meltagun For the price of combi-melta you can get whole meltagun and keep bolter, what's not to like? Probably only loadout where I'd give accompanying terminator melta instead of AC, too. Can shoot then assault, deal with big toys, but short ranged and struggles against some enemies. Big guns: 5x Bolter, 4x Frag Cannon, Auspex Self explanatory. But, pricey so I'd take one at best. DW equivalent of grav-devs without being cheesy as hell. Hot: 5x Shotgun, 5x Combi-plasma I am not sure about it, but I'd still take it over combi-grav (better range after move or deep strike, similar amount of shots, can hurt more targets). With mission tactics gets hot is not that big of an issue, still, they are very alpha strike squad that pays 50 pts for a single salvo. Maybe 2 Frag Cannons instead would be a better use of points? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324803-watching-out-2-veterans/#findComment-4471467 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Clausel Posted August 20, 2016 Share Posted August 20, 2016 Sooo.. I have been wondering. 10 man vet squad with a buttload of meltas. Drop pod in and combat squad them and take out 2 tanks in 1 turn. It seems pretty legit! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324803-watching-out-2-veterans/#findComment-4473734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volth Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 Technically Special/Heavy Weapon + Storm Shield is an option. What do you think? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324803-watching-out-2-veterans/#findComment-4474978 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 Technically Special/Heavy Weapon + Storm Shield is an option. What do you think? Depends on what you want to do with the squad really and how its made up. If its there to protect the special weapon/heavy weapon, sure its okey. But it adds up on the already costly space marine. But if its intended to "soak" low AP weapons, I would stick it to another member who doesn't have expensive equipment already. I could see use of it in a close combat oriented unit. Where the close combat members has focused on getting and extra attack. Letting the special/heavy weapon member be the shields in close combat if the enemy unit survives the shear amount of blows coming their way from the close combat specialists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324803-watching-out-2-veterans/#findComment-4474997 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goonbandito Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 Technically Special/Heavy Weapon + Storm Shield is an option. What do you think?Way too many points on a single 1W model. Storm Shields don't give any extra protection against Boltguns, Lasguns, Pulse Rifles, Gauss Guns, Shootas etc. I think its a trap thats all too easy to fall into - expensive upgrades that don't effectively increase the survivability of the model or increase its Alpha Strike firepower. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324803-watching-out-2-veterans/#findComment-4474999 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysere Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 Technically Special/Heavy Weapon + Storm Shield is an option. What do you think?Way too many points on a single 1W model. Storm Shields don't give any extra protection against Boltguns, Lasguns, Pulse Rifles, Gauss Guns, Shootas etc. I think its a trap thats all too easy to fall into - expensive upgrades that don't effectively increase the survivability of the model or increase its Alpha Strike firepower. Considering the amount of ap 3+ firepower you usually see it has its uses. I'd say for certain specials it could be useful but not for heavies. I mean I put storm shields on most thunder hammer equipped models and that shield often saves their lives, but I prefer to use that on vanguard veterans who cost a touch less with hammers than most marines. The one special I think it can always be useful for is shotguns because those don't cost anything and are designed to be up close and personal. Melta would be a good choice as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324803-watching-out-2-veterans/#findComment-4475269 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Technically Special/Heavy Weapon + Storm Shield is an option. What do you think?Way too many points on a single 1W model. Storm Shields don't give any extra protection against Boltguns, Lasguns, Pulse Rifles, Gauss Guns, Shootas etc. I think its a trap thats all too easy to fall into - expensive upgrades that don't effectively increase the survivability of the model or increase its Alpha Strike firepower. Considering the amount of ap 3+ firepower you usually see it has its uses. I'd say for certain specials it could be useful but not for heavies. I mean I put storm shields on most thunder hammer equipped models and that shield often saves their lives, but I prefer to use that on vanguard veterans who cost a touch less with hammers than most marines. The one special I think it can always be useful for is shotguns because those don't cost anything and are designed to be up close and personal. Melta would be a good choice as well. The argument still rages on whether DW shotguns can be taken alongside bolters with SIA. Since I err on the side of RAI, I'm not modelling mine to carry both but I will say that the shotguns are a solid option if you intend to keep your Veterans mobile with the potential to assault. That being said, they are strictly inferior to boltguns with SIA in terms of pure killing potential at range, so if you intend to receive a charge (Overwatch) and aren't doing the shotty/boltgun dance, the bolter is a better option. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324803-watching-out-2-veterans/#findComment-4476490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysere Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 The argument may rage but for now it is very much RAW, just don't model it in a way that's hard to undo until GW answers. Thankfully I've got some metal deathwatch bolters from the old kit lying around so I can just glue it on the lower back and call it a day. One thing I want to do is shotgun shield but both shotguns are two handed so I need to do some trimming. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324803-watching-out-2-veterans/#findComment-4476550 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irbis Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 The argument still rages on whether DW shotguns can be taken alongside bolters with SIA. Since I err on the side of RAI, I'm not modelling mine to carry both but I will say that the shotguns are a solid option if you intend to keep your Veterans mobile with the potential to assault. That being said, they are strictly inferior to boltguns with SIA in terms of pure killing potential at range, so if you intend to receive a charge (Overwatch) and aren't doing the shotty/boltgun dance, the bolter is a better option. I wouldn't say they are strictly inferior. They keep 2 shots to 16 inches, longer than rapid fire on most special ammo. As for overwatch, they are strictly superior due to wall of fire rule, yes, it's S3 but it's still multiple automatic hits. I'd take it instead of praying for 6s. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324803-watching-out-2-veterans/#findComment-4476595 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 Hmm you know I forgot about the templates! Good point, there. I suppose the struggle for me is the loss of range and MEQ killing potential, but I'd have to agree there's an argument to be made beyond the ability to assault after firing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324803-watching-out-2-veterans/#findComment-4476866 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masked Thespian Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 How does this sound for a general load out for Veterans? 10 Veterans with 2 Frag Cannons, and 1 Heavy Thunder Hammer (300 points) I'm hoping to have two of these as the backbone of an army, working their way up the field whilst shooting at targets of opportunity and able to take on any threat thanks to both the Frag Cannons and the Heavy Thunder Hammer. Speaking of which, I'm not sure whether to take the Heavy Thunder Hammer or the regular version (both being the same cost); the regular version lets me keep my Boltgun, which gives me an extra 1-2 shots every turn, but the Heavy Thunder Hammer gives me more powerful melee attacks should I need them. Also, is it worth taking a Watch Sergeant (with no other upgrades)? I'm not terribly up to date with 7th Edition rules so I don't know if having him is more of a drawback than an advantage. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324803-watching-out-2-veterans/#findComment-4485266 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mika_angelus Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 Sergeant is good if you have another character in the squad that you don't want to get challenged. Or you can give him a storm shield and use him to tank character attacks through challenge. He can also take an auspex which is very good in close ranged squads. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324803-watching-out-2-veterans/#findComment-4485405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 How does this sound for a general load out for Veterans? 10 Veterans with 2 Frag Cannons, and 1 Heavy Thunder Hammer (300 points) Why not 4 Frag Cannons? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324803-watching-out-2-veterans/#findComment-4485454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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