Ordo Machinum Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 Let's continue the "Watching Out" discussions with a focus on the 'Melee Experts' of the Watch: Vanguard Veterans I want to survey the boards opinions on their relevancy and useful weapon load-outs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 Well I wont use them as it is. Cant drop the jump pack, no use for me. Hate jump packs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 As their own unit, VVs are pretty forgettable. Restriction to 5 models is a huge issue, and as Sete said, you can't opt to toss the Jump Packs. They also don't benefit from the DW teleport homer (and you can't take VVs as a unit in a BSSF) and so are difficult to use as a DS unit. When attached to a KT, however, they add re-rolled charge distances for their unit (which they would do anyway with the JP, I suppose) and the ability to ignore disordered charges, which is particularly helpful when setting up multiple charges to get the most from your expensive units. They also throw in a HoW attack each and have heavily discounted melee weapons, making VVs a great choice to augment melee capability in a KT. In particular, the LC/PF combo is pretty neat if you don't mind spending the points, though TH/SS is better done via Terminators. One problem for fitting them in a KT, though, is the transport restriction this imposes. Since you can't toss the JP, they won't fit in a Rhino, Razorback, Land Raider or Drop Pod. This limits your transport option to the dubious (but cool looking) Corvus Blackstar, an expensive proposition to say the least. You still have the option to DS the squad without a transport (assuming you're running a BSSF), but that opens up a host of other issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_F_H Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 I was just curious about them as an allied VV alternative to other forces since they are a tad more potent thanks to special ammo pistols. Wherever you would have run a cheap jump vv squad, these guys could be a tad more useful. So an allied detatchment with DWSGV + HQ in dedicated Corvus, and a cheap unit of DWVV in the FA slot. Could be useful to some forces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 Eh, Overwatch really screws over Jump Infantry as a rule. I can't think of a situation in which I'd want to run a small VV squad other than possibly a Shadowstrike Kill Team, which can't take DW VVs. If you just want the spiffy ammo, why not pay for 5 Vets in a DP? You get ObjSec and more shots for 20 points more, not to mention the option to swap for shotties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_F_H Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 It's not taken for the special ammo, it's for when I want VV and the spec ammo would help out a little bit. A few extra kills would reduce enemy overwatch that turn when we charge... May not be ideal, I'll concede that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fedratsailor Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 I plan on building at least 1 unit of 5 with 2 HTH, and 3 with P Maul/SS, hide them in terrain to survive and wait for that sweet turn to jump out and smash the living crap out of something. and yes I'm building my army using CAD, I do not like the BSSF or the kill teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irbis Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 When attached to a KT, however, they add re-rolled charge distances for their unit (which they would do anyway with the JP, I suppose) and the ability to ignore disordered charges, which is particularly helpful when setting up multiple charges to get the most from your expensive units. They also throw in a HoW attack each and have heavily discounted melee weapons, making VVs a great choice to augment melee capability in a KT. In particular, the LC/PF combo is pretty neat if you don't mind spending the points, though TH/SS is better done via Terminators. But does DW want to charge anyway? When you fire bolters or combi-plasma, you can't charge, doubly so after deep strike. In second turn where charge would be possible, enemy will charge you first anyway. Disordered charge? Most efficient way is to run DW as shooty alpha strike, you don't want to charge your expensive guns (as you didn't buy melee weapons save for that one Terminator, right?) at a single enemy, much less multiple. Yes, I suppose against Tau it might make sense but then again, they have full BS overwatch so not really. What really kills VV for me is the fact you can't use one for challenges, drop pack, and are really just 30 pts MEQ, you might as well shell 10 points for 2+ save and Aquila KT bonuses instead. Also consider the fact that DW would often want to be charged. If your squad has shotguns, that's 5d3 wall of death hits minimum right there. Frag cannons? Heh. So, yeah, VV are really very situational and I don't think I'll build one. The only DW melee squad I can see making would be in LR, so that's no for JP models. By the way, claw is made obsolete by KT rerolls, I'd take just power weapon instead, with maybe 1 model in 5 with TH/SS or HTH. Looks more point efficient to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 But does DW want to charge anyway? When you fire bolters or combi-plasma, you can't charge, doubly so after deep strike. In second turn where charge would be possible, enemy will charge you first anyway. Disordered charge? Most efficient way is to run DW as shooty alpha strike, you don't want to charge your expensive guns (as you didn't buy melee weapons save for that one Terminator, right?) at a single enemy, much less multiple. Yes, I suppose against Tau it might make sense but then again, they have full BS overwatch so not really. What really kills VV for me is the fact you can't use one for challenges, drop pack, and are really just 30 pts MEQ, you might as well shell 10 points for 2+ save and Aquila KT bonuses instead. Also consider the fact that DW would often want to be charged. If your squad has shotguns, that's 5d3 wall of death hits minimum right there. Frag cannons? Heh. So, yeah, VV are really very situational and I don't think I'll build one. The only DW melee squad I can see making would be in LR, so that's no for JP models. By the way, claw is made obsolete by KT rerolls, I'd take just power weapon instead, with maybe 1 model in 5 with TH/SS or HTH. Looks more point efficient to me. Absolutely agreed on all points. I guess I was trying to make the "optimist" argument for them, as it seems like we're really looking at "Codex: Veterans" at this point. If only the Corvus was better . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysere Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 Vanguard vets in kill teams are basically a most if you really want the team to Assault things and the jump pack won't prevent you from using them. Cheaper melee weapons coupled with two fantastic bonuses for assault units are worth it. I'd say the corvus is plenty good, base cost is just under the storm raven and it's pretty much better in every way with or without death from the skies. Personally I'd use them with shields or heavy thunder hammers in a shield equipped vehicle hunting team. Deepstrike them in mid field where you should already have other scary teams to take the heat off them a bit. You could even add a bike in that set up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Cohort Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 Can you gunslinger the vanguard vets and have a mobile SIA squad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinsanity Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 Yes, but their second pistol has to be a Plaspa/Grav/Inferno pistol or Hand Flamer (or replace both their CCW and BP with two of these). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 That sounds both ridiculously expensive and counter-intuitive, IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinsanity Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 If only we could take BPs, even at 5pts each, I'd have Twin-BP gunslinger destroyer squads for sure! :drool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Cohort Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 If only we could take BPs, even at 5pts each, I'd have Twin-BP gunslinger destroyer squads for sure! :drool: That was what I was thinking, doesn't make sense that they can dual wield special pistols but not bolt pistols Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shandwen Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 To me it seems bad that can vets can't: take sergeants, take blackshields, and can't drop their packs. That being said they are a great option for kill teams. They do get cheap power weapons, and give great assault bonuses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinsanity Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 I can easily see why vanguards/bikers/terms can't have sergeants, since that way there's no way to have more than one sgt by KT. Could have been done differently, I admit, but the purpose of the codex seemed to be to field KTs, not a CAD... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 I can easily see why vanguards/bikers/terms can't have sergeants, since that way there's no way to have more than one sgt by KT. Could have been done differently, I admit, but the purpose of the codex seemed to be to field KTs, not a CAD... Funny given the CAD is pretty much the only way to make C:DW viable . . . (though an allied KT or even a small BSSF is good past 1500) In either case, I feel that Vanguard Veterans are still a subpar choice unless you plan on putting them in a Corvus Blackstar. Which is itself a subpar choice as a transport. Jump Infantry and Bikes are something C:SM just does better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volth Posted August 21, 2016 Share Posted August 21, 2016 Edit: Wrong Thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irbis Posted August 21, 2016 Share Posted August 21, 2016 I can easily see why vanguards/bikers/terms can't have sergeants, since that way there's no way to have more than one sgt by KT. But that could have been handled differently, just say in the 'restriction' box every kill team has 'can only have 1 sergeant'. Done. And it's not like having 2 sergeants would be a problem, either, seeing even 5 man kill team can have 2 characters (blackshield and sarge) already. This is even sadder because if we could make Vanguard a sergeant people would be actually likely to take them, someone with cheap power weapon/pistol for challenges would have been great... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinsanity Posted August 21, 2016 Share Posted August 21, 2016 This codex has me thinking we're more than likely to see the CAD disapear when next edition comes up, leaving us with no choice but to field KTs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vel'Cona Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 This codex has me thinking we're more than likely to see the CAD disapear when next edition comes up, leaving us with no choice but to field KTs... http://i.imgur.com/ECBQQ26.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ServoBadger Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 Although the general consensus seems to be that they're not up to much... I do still have five from Death Masque to build! Would 3 x LC and 2 x TH/SS be a good loadout, if I'm running a unit of 5 in a CAD? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverson Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 My current thought is to remove the backpacks and use them as veterans, Not sure about the load outs sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apostle of the 30th Host Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 Although the general consensus seems to be that they're not up to much... I do still have five from Death Masque to build! Would 3 x LC and 2 x TH/SS be a good loadout, if I'm running a unit of 5 in a CAD? If I were running a squad of 5 I would go 2 with Heavy Thunder Hammers and 3 with a single Lightning Claw (or a power weapon of choice), Storm Shield and Melta Bombs (HTH's don't need Melta Bombs as their hammers can do the same, but can make more than one attack). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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