Allied "Scions": MT IG Codex?

[Indefragable]

If one were to want counts-as-Scions as an allied force (most likely in a CAD), which is the better option in terms of the Codex to use? Militarum Tempestus or Astra Militarum?

 

 

Militarum Tempestus

(if I am doing this right...)

In a CAD, they are fairly low-points giving you a MTCS as HQ and 2x MT Platoons as (OBSEC) Troops for 225 + upgrades. This gives you the MT Orders as well.

 

Astra Militarum:

In a CAD, you have a much higher sunk cost since you need a CCS (60) + 2x Veteran Squads (60/ea) before you can start unlocking Scions as MTP's as Elites. However, what draws my eye to this is the Orders that the CCS can give the MTPs: Ignores Cover, Monster Hunter/Tank Hunter, etc... Also, the CCS can bring a cheap Officer of the Fleet for that +1 to Reserves goodness. Additionally, with a Fortification slot, you can pull in a Comms Array for even more reliability. 

 

From a Fluff perspective I like the idea of the commando thing with all MT, but from a Crunch perspective the AM Orders seem a step up. Then again, CCS's can't Deep Strike...

[WarriorFish]

If you're just looking for the Stormies then go straight for their codex to keep it simple. Otherwise you're basically taking a Guard army with some Scions in which would only make sense if you wanted to draw some Guard elements into the list. You can mix things up and take a Guard CAD and an allied MT choice if you wanted, so there are plenty of options available depending on what you'd like :) In my opinion the only significant difference is the orders if you're looking between Guard/Scion builds.

[CoffeeGrunt]

All the Guard stuff you're listing there is a real advantage, but then you're doubling the price of it and taking a fairly large army. You're looking at a 180pt tax minimum to give you some fairly useless units in the grand scheme of things. To make them useful requires more points, which ends up being a bit of a sunk cost deal. 

 

I mean, I'd personally say you want the CCS advancing with the men to hand out Orders, so that's a Chimera needed for an additional 65pts+. You want Special Weapons on the Vets and either a Chimera to close, or Camo Cloaks to hide with, more points. Could be as high as...oh, 400pts+ before you start adding the Scions in.

 

By which point, other than Deep Strike and the slight advantage of HS Lasguns, you realise that Veterans are better anyway. :/

[Indefragable]

Good points. I'm not familiar with the MT Orders at all, so maybe that's a mental block. 

 

Do they add to the AT effectivness at all, the way Ignores Cover or Tank Hunters do? 

 

My force is going to be exceptionally light on the AT so the idea of BS4 Meltas is appealing. 

[CoffeeGrunt]

IIRC, the MT Orders are Preferred Enemy, Twin-Linked, turning their HS Lasguns into Sniper weapons, Fleet, and one or two more. Overall the Twin-Linked one and Preferred Enemy one are the only ones that would help with AT that I can remember.

[Indefragable]

IIRC, the MT Orders are Preferred Enemy, Twin-Linked, turning their HS Lasguns into Sniper weapons, Fleet, and one or two more. Overall the Twin-Linked one and Preferred Enemy one are the only ones that would help with AT that I can remember.

 

Apparently there's one that gives Rending vs MC's/Vehicles. THAT sounds nice!

[CoffeeGrunt]

Yeah, though remember you can only Glance up to Armour 12 with your HS Lasguns. Against MCs the Sniper Order is better because you Wound on a 4+ as well.

[Indefragable]

Yeah, though remember you can only Glance up to Armour 12 with your HS Lasguns. Against MCs the Sniper Order is better because you Wound on a 4+ as well.

 

Ah good point. 

 

Next question:

 

Equipment loadout:

 

I am torn between how to equip these guys. My eye keeps getting drawn to the hot-shot volley gun: 4x 24" S4 AP3 shots each for a Command Squad seem not bad. Idea would be to DS them (some tricks up my sleeve to help with that), Run (using Fleet/Crusader Orders) into cover, then stay parked spitting out the above with further TL/Preferred Enemy orders. 

 

On the flipside, I need AT so melta. Melta everywhere.

 

Thirdly, go big or go home, so DS'ing plasma with re-rolls seems mighty useful. 

 

Lastly....keep 'em cheap with Rending/Sniper Orders for HS Lasguns? 

[CoffeeGrunt]

It's Salvo 4/2, so move and it's 12" 2 shots. Not too great for a mobile squad.

 

I'd say to have dedicated Plasma or Melta squads. The Command Squad works well running 4x a Meltagun, and dropping in to slap a tank. They also work nice with 4x Plasma plus that Preferred Enemy Order, though if you're playing with the new FAQ re-rolling the 1 doesn't negate the Wound IIRC.

[Indefragable]

It's Salvo 4/2, so move and it's 12" 2 shots. Not too great for a mobile squad.

 

I'd say to have dedicated Plasma or Melta squads. The Command Squad works well running 4x a Meltagun, and dropping in to slap a tank. They also work nice with 4x Plasma plus that Preferred Enemy Order, though if you're playing with the new FAQ re-rolling the 1 doesn't negate the Wound IIRC.

 

Ah yea. Forgot about the half range thing for Salvo. That sucks. 

 

And I believe the FAQ is for blast weapons. 

[duz_]

I personally prefer scions as a MT CAD if I have the numbers to warrant their own detachment.

 

Given they are considered as IG faction-wise unless your opponent okays it you wont be able to take them as an Allied Detachment per the BRB.

[Father Mehman]

I personally prefer scions as a MT CAD if I have the numbers to warrant their own detachment.

 

Given they are considered as IG faction-wise unless your opponent okays it you wont be able to take them as an Allied Detachment per the BRB.

I was always under the assumption that if something has its own book then it's fair game for Allied Detachment. That's like saying two different Space Marine Chapters can't be allied together as they're both Adeptus Astartes.

[duz_]

BRB says same faction can't ally together. Codex SM specifically says you CAN ally different chapters together in exception to the rule.

No such rule for MT though. The beginning of the MT book says it is faction IG/AM.

[Father Mehman]

Can you show me where it says Militarum Tempestus and Imperial Guard can't ally? This intrigues me.

 

++EDIT++

It says speciffically in the Militarum Tempestus Codex (pg 78, iPad Enhanced Version): "All of the Formations and Army List Entries in this book are part of the Militarum Tempestus Faction." It goes on to further state, on the same page, that Astra Militarum are Battle Brothers in terms of Allies.

[duz_]

Yes I just saw that... So I stand corrected. Which is annoying I changed a whole tournament list because of that. My fault for reading late a night I guess. Why isn't guard just guard so it can be IG and MT instead of AM and MT ...

Any how as for the rest of the rules

[Indefragable]

Good points, all. And thank you for the actual Rules to back things up.

 

My plan ( http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324880-iquisitorial-visit-2000pts/ ) is actually to use Scions as counts-as InQuisitorial StormTroopers (IQST). I am now torn between having 2x Hellrain Brigades and a MT CAD with 4+ Scion Squads and 1-2 MTCS's. 

 

Hellrain:

Pros:

-"infinite" Scion squads Deep Striking all over the place

-add some mobile Fire-ports to race around the board (Taurox Primes)

-Commissars can be given Power Fists and thrown into an IQ melee unit

 

Cons:

-with even 2x Hellrains, that's still only TWO units that are coming back over the course of a 5-6 Turn game. And knowing my Meta, many players will understand this and deliberately tarpit or avoid killing them in order to neutralize that mechanic

-"tax" of Commissars and Taurox Primes

 

MT CAD:

Pros:

-no Tax units

-OBSEC on Scions in Troops slots

-get more "line" units for your buck

 

Cons:

-"only" the # of units you first bring with you...no infinite reinforcements

 

 

The more I think about it, the more the CAD works for my purposes. If I bring 4x Scion squads as Troops, that's almost as good as 2x re-deployable Scion squads. I mean, realistically, how many times are you going to be able to bring them back in with a Hellrain? They both come in Turn 2, hopefully die that Turn (weird to say that), come in Turn 3, hopefully die again, hopefully come back Turn 4, etc.... It's a neat trick but the more I think about it, the less appealing it is especially based on the minimum Tax of 210pts (2x Commissars + 2x Taurox Primes)

 

 

Hellrain = 355pts/ea (710pts total)

Commissar

--Power Fist

MTCS

--Plasma x 3

--Medi-Pack

Taurox Prime

--Dozer Blade

Scions x 5

--Melta gun x 2

 

vs

 

MT CAD: 505pts

MTCS

--Plasma x 3

--Medi-Pack

Scions x 5

--Melta gun x 2

Scions x 5

--Melta gun x 2

Scions x 5

--Melta gun x 2

Scions x 5

--Melta gun x 2

[duz_]

I generally use a CAD similar to your proposed one. 

Although I just go for all 4 Plasma (same price) and keep issuing the PE/TL order (PE is generally the better of 2 unless your shooting a vehicle, flyer or something that won't wound on a 2+).

 

Only issue with the CAD  as you have it lacks mobility and durability. 

Where possible I like to include a taroux or 2. That way I can use them to hold objectives while the Scions deep strike and neutralise threats.

 

I haven't played the hellrain formation yet, but I see that as more of a support formation than something to base a list off. 

[Father Mehman]

I would say go with the Hellrain just for the mobility, like Duz says. Taurox Primes are your friends !

[Indefragable]

My concern with the Hellrain is the drip-feed to the enemy. You are getting 1x Scion squad to DS per Turn per Hellrain. So essentially you are paying for a Commissar + MTCS + Taurox Prime + Upgrades for the chance to bring back a 70-100pt unit. The more I consider it, the less I like it. Neat idea but you would need 3-4 of them to work properly, and that many points takes up most of the army.