Deathwatch model size discussion

[LutherMax]

Just to clear up the issue of scale (as it was discussed at length in the Rumours thread), I can confirm that the new DW marines are the same scale as the other marine kits, and that the extra height is due to their posing.

The following pictures show DW marines next to marines from older kits that have been re-posed by fellow frater, Blindhamster. No length was added to the legs etc, they have simply been cut and reposed.

[Dosjetka]

Good to know, thanks!

 

Also good to see that filling in the chest slots for the ammo/pouches can be done quite easily. :tu:

[Irbis]

My reply from news thread:

They stand on pretty thick basing, legs straight, plus lengthened by glue layer, and new marine is still taller. And that despite squatting. Just look at legs in first and last photo, his bent knee is higher than completely straight one. Put unmodified Dark Vengeance or Calth marine without 4 mm basing next to him and he will be over half of head taller. Put Chaos SM next to him and most of them will barely reach his chin.

And that without considering your new BA marine is still far taller than old SM. He is almost as big as old terminators:

http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2015/6/13/721464_sm-.jpg

[photo by Talys on Dakka]

[Robbienw]

As I said earlier in the rumours thread, they are the same scale as all the other marine kits, BUT they are taller.

 

They are taller because the waist joints (the raised bump) on the legs is noticeably taller, and the belt area on the torso is twice the height of nomral marine belts.  This is what makes them taller, not bigger.  Obviously the more upright posing of their legs adds to the effect. 

 

Other parts of the kit like weapons, heads, helmets, arms, etc all broadly match up to the main kits and are the same scale as the rest of the marine range.

 

Rob

[Halandaar]

My reply from news thread:

 

They stand on pretty thick basing, legs straight, plus lengthened by glue layer, and new marine is still taller. And that despite squatting. Just look at legs in first and last photo, his bent knee is higher than completely straight one. Put unmodified Dark Vengeance or Calth marine without 4 mm basing next to him and he will be over half of head taller. Put Chaos SM next to him and most of them will barely reach his chin.

 

And that without considering your new BA marine is still far taller than old SM. He is almost as big as old terminators:

 

http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2015/6/13/721464_sm-.jpg

 

[photo by Talys on Dakka]

 

Bit disingenuous that photo, given that none of the bases are actually level with each other:

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q797/halandaar/Warhammer/Forum%20Images/721464_sm-_zpse30otwiv.jpg

 

Also, 32mm bases are taller than 25mm, so if you edit them so all the feet touch the same line, the scale creep is much less severe.

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q797/halandaar/Warhammer/Forum%20Images/721464_sm-edit_zpszb68pl0r.jpg

[Blindhamster]

So... those models in the first pose are mine. If you like I can take more comparison shots vs other stock models

[LutherMax]

So... those models in the first pose are mine. If you like I can take more comparison shots vs other stock models

Blindhamster, thought I'd copy your reply from the other thread as it's relevant here too:

 

The model on the right in every one of my pictures is a stock deathwatch veteran from death masque. The models on the left are marines that had their squatting poses changed to be upright but didn't have height added.

The deathwatch miniatures are not a larger scale. They're exactly the same (seriously look at the pictures I shared... do I need to take more?) I can get one of artemis next to other running marines if you like too. His pose is more upright than most running marines but he still isn't a larger scale.

An example of models with oddly scaled parts are the new assault squad - which have midget legs. I use vanguard legal instead as they're properly scaled.

[LutherMax]

They stand on pretty thick basing, legs straight, plus lengthened by glue layer, and new marine is still taller.

I'm not sure where you're getting that from... in all those pics the re-posed marines from the older kits are roughly the same height as the new DW one, without the base:

 

http://www.themightybrush.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/deathwatch-marine-size-comparison-01.jpg

 

http://www.themightybrush.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/deathwatch-marine-size-comparison-02.jpg

 

http://www.themightybrush.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/deathwatch-marine-size-comparison-03.jpg

 

http://www.themightybrush.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/deathwatch-marine-size-comparison-04.jpg

[Spinsanity]

We all knew something like this would come up; this is a GW kit, to some people, nothing they ever do is right.

And yet they remain...

[LutherMax]

We all knew something like this would come up; this is a GW kit, to some people, nothing they ever do is right.

And yet they remain...

See I think it is right! I think the standing / walking marines look sooo much cooler than the squatty ones. Blindhamster obviously agrees seeing as he went to the effort to create such poses for his marines long before the Deathwatch stuff came out.

 

I also wondered if it was a deliberate design decision to make these – the elitist of the elite space marines – stand taller than your average tactical or assault grunt (but, importantly they are the same scale so as to be compatible with the other kits). The fairly recent Vanguard Veterans seem to be similar, which supports this theory as they are also elite, but then I think the Sternguard that came out at the same time are squatty like the latest tactical squad kit so maybe not...

Edited August 22, 2016 by LutherMax

[Blindhamster]

I think the space marine height is about right across the range vs a guardian - put these new ones or reposted standard kits next to guardsmen and they look like giants :)

[Spinsanity]

See I think it is right! I think the standing / walking marines look sooo much cooler than the squatty ones. Blindhamster obviously agrees seeing as he went to the effort to create such poses for his marines long before the Deathwatch stuff came out.

Don't get me wrong, I love the models' pose and agree they fit well with the rest of the line; I was just reminding everyone that whatever GW does, there are people who are always more than happy to find any possible reason to complain.

[Icechiang]

I am making some right now and when I used the body and legs from the stern guard kit I noticed that the stern guard based model did seem smaller and shorter than the new deathwatch marines. When you compare them to the other marks of armor it isn't that different but the squat does make them seem shorter.

 

At first I didn't like it but now I'll just say that marine is on the shorter side. Kind of like the imperial fist from the deathwatch book is shorter but wider than most other marines. I'll take a pic when I get home from work if anyone wants to see.

[LutherMax]

I am making some right now and when I used the body and legs from the stern guard kit I noticed that the stern guard based model did seem smaller and shorter than the new deathwatch marines. When you compare them to the other marks of armor it isn't that different but the squat does make them seem shorter.

 

At first I didn't like it but now I'll just say that marine is on the shorter side. Kind of like the imperial fist from the deathwatch book is shorter but wider than most other marines. I'll take a pic when I get home from work if anyone wants to see.

Yes, please take a pic!

 

Also...

 

As I said earlier in the rumours thread, they are the same scale as all the other marine kits, BUT they are taller.

 

They are taller because the waist joints (the raised bump) on the legs is noticeably taller, and the belt area on the torso is twice the height of nomral marine belts. This is what makes them taller, not bigger. Obviously the more upright posing of their legs adds to the effect.

 

Other parts of the kit like weapons, heads, helmets, arms, etc all broadly match up to the main kits and are the same scale as the rest of the marine range.

 

Rob

Can anyone show a pic of this (two pairs of legs side by side without torso attached, and two torsos)?

 

I didn;t buy the Death Masque box so have to wait for my Veteran kit to arrive...

[Blindhamster]

Okay, here is the supposedly huge Artemis model next to a stock vanguard model (no conversion except bitz swaps)

and here are legs vs the mk8 legs, the closest set of stock legs i have to the pose the mk8s have is one of the new forgeworld mk6 sets, but that still has a wider stance (and for some reason far less ribbing between leg and pelvis)

I'd agree that the overall size of the groin has been increased a bit with these new kits, but it does vary (vanguard have a similar sized groin plate for example).

Regular Assault Marine legs are truly tiny however, which makes them hard to use.

[Arkangilos]

 

We all knew something like this would come up; this is a GW kit, to some people, nothing they ever do is right.

And yet they remain...

See I think it is right! I think the standing / walking marines look sooo much cooler than the squatty ones. Blindhamster obviously agrees seeing as he went to the effort to create such poses for his marines long before the Deathwatch stuff came out.

 

I also wondered if it was a deliberate design decision to make these – the elitist of the elite space marines – stand taller than your average tactical or assault grunt (but, importantly they are the same scale so as to be compatible with the other kits). The fairly recent Vanguard Veterans seem to be similar, which supports this theory as they are also elite, but then I think the Sternguard that came out at the same time are squatty like the latest tactical squad kit so maybe not...

So I mean, it doesn't look bad, but the squatting stance is more realistic. The walking stance just doesn't look as cool to me, it looks strange and wrong (to a degree). When doing combat movements, we tend to be squatted over. We even walk squated, not standing straight up. It's more stable.

 

I want to say I don't exactly dislike it. Though I agree with the scale thing.

Edited August 22, 2016 by Arkangilos

[Doghouse]

Guess I could say I am a bit of an expert in scaling up models and have to say they are a tiny bit taller.

 

Same as the newer paint set snap fix marines.

 

You can argue the spread of the legs on the regular marines makes them appear smaller but at the end of the day these new guys tower over the regular marines and it makes them that much more imposing. The lower leg looks slightly longer due to higher placing of the knee pads from what I can see having these guys in the flesh so to speak.

 

I've pretty much compared these to every marine that gw has made and they just look way bigger even if it is a trick of perception.

 

They are far from truescale but really nice models and much more naturally posed, try standing in the original squatting pose and you will know what I mean. The only downside I find is that the equipment is already molded onto the belts, makes it a bit of a chore if you want to add additional gear.

[Blindhamster]

Doghouse is indeed an expert on the subject, I've done my share of true scaling in the past too (as he knows!). They may be a mm or two taller total due to waist position but I do find it fascinating that I don't need to add height to regular stuff to make it the same height with a different pose.

[Arkangilos]

They are far from truescale but really nice models and much more naturally posed, try standing in the original squatting pose and you will know what I mean. The only downside I find is that the equipment is already molded onto the belts, makes it a bit of a chore if you want to add additional gear.

As an infantryman I have squatted like that, and moved around in full battle rattle (IBA/IOTV, FLC, combat load worth of ammo, m4/m249 depending on which year, ACH, etc). It's an actual combat stance...

 

And it's not just one unit I've learned it from. We've had former rangers (experts in all things infantry) teach us to do it that way, sergeants from several units train us to do it that way, drill sergeants, etc.

 

It stabilizes your shots, stabilizes you, gives you an agressive posture that can actually add power to your moves, gives you better balance, and lowers your silhouette.

Edited August 22, 2016 by Arkangilos

[LutherMax]

That's why I think it makes sense for tactical marines - it's exactly how I imagine them in the field.

 

But these guys are superhuman amongst superhumans, striding foolhardy into battle without a second thought for the bullets whizzing past their ears! Perhaps that is the inspiration for their more upright stature?!

[Arkangilos]

That's why I think it makes sense for tactical marines - it's exactly how I imagine them in the field.

 

But these guys are superhuman amongst superhumans, striding foolhardy into battle without a second thought for the bullets whizzing past their ears! Perhaps that is the inspiration for their more upright stature?!

... Alright, that's true.

 

Like I said, I don't dislike it. I'm just defending the other one, it makes sense to me.

Edited August 22, 2016 by Arkangilos

[LutherMax]

Fair enough :)

 

I am quite fond of my little tactical marines too - each one spends so long with me at the painting desk! :D

[Doghouse]

 

They are far from truescale but really nice models and much more naturally posed, try standing in the original squatting pose and you will know what I mean. The only downside I find is that the equipment is already molded onto the belts, makes it a bit of a chore if you want to add additional gear.

As an infantryman I have squatted like that, and moved around in full battle rattle (IBA/IOTV, FLC, combat load worth of ammo, m4/m249 depending on which year, ACH, etc). It's an actual combat stance...

 

And it's not just one unit I've learned it from. We've had former rangers (experts in all things infantry) teach us to do it that way, sergeants from several units train us to do it that way, drill sergeants, etc.

 

It stabilizes your shots, stabilizes you, gives you an agressive posture that can actually add power to your moves, gives you better balance, and lowers your silhouette.

 

 

 

I totally agree with you there but the actual positioning of the models due to the early limitations of the casting processes being like a flat press means that the legs are spread out to the sides rather than fore and back which is a more natural stance. The original marines are more straddling than crouching with the feet facing too far forwards rather than to the sides more which would cause undercuts in the molding.

I think with a little work you could probably achieve the stance you are talking about with the new DW models but would look a little more natural.

 

I think the main problem is the stance coming from the original beakie marines which were spaced unnaturally to allow them to fit onto bikes or riding lizards. This stance seems to have carried over through the years to all the plastic marines which like I say is most likely due to early casting limitations.

 

 

Doghouse is indeed an expert on the subject, I've done my share of true scaling in the past too (as he knows!). They may be a mm or two taller total due to waist position but I do find it fascinating that I don't need to add height to regular stuff to make it the same height with a different pose.

 

From the rough and early tests it does look like there is about 1mil difference in the leg length but not sure about the waist as I've built mine. The tallest marine models I've found so far are the newest paint set snap fix marines, they are the same height as the DW guys but with a wider gait to the legs.

 

Edit: Because I suck at multi-quotes...

 

Second edit: One thing I forgot to add was the size of a lot of the bare heads is smaller too which also adds to the illusion of size too but are ever so slightly more proportionate. 

Edited August 22, 2016 by Doghouse

[Vel'Cona]

TBH I can't imagine why this is an issue. I suppose if everyone wants their guys to be 100% uniform then they'll be a bit sad, but honestly not all Space Marines are the same height!!! I mean, I don't know why this needs to be said, but apparently it does; just look at the background material for dozens of references for notably taller or shorter Astartes. In the case of the DW, they take from all stripes and chapters, which means you could have some more subtle marines (perhaps snipers? bikers?), alongside bigger and bolder marines. No matter how you slice it, just because the models appear a bit taller doesn't mean your whole army is going to look ridiculous; if anything, having some disparity only enhances the appeal of the diverse and individualistic Deathwatch!

If a model really does struggle height-wise and it's an issue, re-posing is always a ready option. Failing that (as I lack the skill to do so myself), a nice scenic or corked base is a perfect way to add some "elevation" to a vertically-challenged Astartes!