Burning Retros Answer

[SkimaskMohawk]

"hi,

Thank you for your email. AS per the first point in Burning Retros, the following applies -

 

1. The Dreadnought doesn't have to leave the Drop pod when it lands.

 

2. The Dreadnought may be targeted by shooting attacks if it stays inside the Drop Pod.

 

3. Whilst inside the Drop Pod the Dreadnought may not be charged."

[Theredknight]

Pretty much how we thought it'd end.

 

Please post this up in the rules thread so that horsey can finally be put to rest

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I know the book is new but we really need an FAQ so we have sometime actually official.

[AlphariusOmegon108]

So very shooty dreads inside drop pods anyone, cant be targeted, and loosing a drop pod isnt too bad

[Theredknight]

So very shooty dreads inside drop pods anyone, cant be targeted, and loosing a drop pod isnt too bad

Anything it shoots at has 'shrouded' so the only shoot dread really is 2x grav flux bombards to ignore those cover saves!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The phosphex is barrage so it can ignore cover too.

[Brofist]

Quick- somebody send another email and get a contradictory response

[SkimaskMohawk]

My question was super neutral so there'd be no bias.

 

For phosphex it would only ignore the cover if it was a barricade or something like that; they'd still get shroud and area terrain saves

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Barrage is cover determined from the center of the blast. Sorry about your FW reply but I don't think it'd fly showing people a post on the Internet. ;)

[SkimaskMohawk]

I don't really understand what you're trying to say. The rule is ambiguous and can be interpreted either way. My gaming group wanted clarification one way or another. I emailed them and got answer. Are you saying that now we've got our answer that my friends I see on a regular basis and were just as interested in knowing the answer won't want to play with said answer?

 

And for the phosphex, thats what I said? Shroud is applied to all units that shoot through or over the pod and the target of the dread; phosphex doesn't ignore cover so they'd get a 5+ at worse. Area terrain (outdated term, its really any GW terrain piece) is when you get cover for being in any part of the terrain piece and not dependent on 25% obscurement. A plasma gun from 1" away has the same effect as barrage in that case.

[Spinsanity]

I don't really understand what you're trying to say. The rule is ambiguous and can be interpreted either way. My gaming group wanted clarification one way or another. I emailed them and got answer. Are you saying that now we've got our answer that my friends I see on a regular basis and were just as interested in knowing the answer won't want to play with said answer?

 

And for the phosphex, thats what I said? Shroud is applied to all units that shoot through or over the pod and the target of the dread; phosphex doesn't ignore cover so they'd get a 5+ at worse. Area terrain (outdated term, its really any GW terrain piece) is when you get cover for being in any part of the terrain piece and not dependent on 25% obscurement. A plasma gun from 1" away has the same effect as barrage in that case.

In regards to the Phosphex, the target would get shrouded/cover only if the middle of the blast goes through the Burning Retros cloud since Barrage specifically says that "To determine whether a unit wounded by a Barrage weapon is allowed a cover save [...] always assume the shot is coming from the center of the blast marker"

 

Hence, the Phosphex barrage does not grant shrouded to the targeted unit unless the blast scatters onto one of the Pod's petals AND the middle of the blast is on he petal, or the petal is between the middle of the blast and the target model

 

+ Edit : Added exception...

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

I don't really understand what you're trying to say. The rule is ambiguous and can be interpreted either way. My gaming group wanted clarification one way or another. I emailed them and got answer. Are you saying that now we've got our answer that my friends I see on a regular basis and were just as interested in knowing the answer won't want to play with said answer?

 

And for the phosphex, thats what I said? Shroud is applied to all units that shoot through or over the pod and the target of the dread; phosphex doesn't ignore cover so they'd get a 5+ at worse. Area terrain (outdated term, its really any GW terrain piece) is when you get cover for being in any part of the terrain piece and not dependent on 25% obscurement. A plasma gun from 1" away has the same effect as barrage in that case.

In regards to the Phosphex, the target would get shrouded/cover only if the middle of the blast goes through the Burning Retros cloud since Barrage specifically says that "To determine whether a unit wounded by a Barrage weapon is allowed a cover save [...] always assume the shot is coming from the center of the blast marker"

 

Hence, the Phosphex barrage does not grant shrouded to the targeted unit unless the blast scatters onto one of the Pod's petals AND the middle of the blast is on he petal, or the petal is between the middle of the blast and the target model

 

+ Edit : Added exception...

 

 

The rule in it's entirety says:

 

"The dissipating fireball clouds the Drop Pod so that should the Dreadnought carried by the Drop Pod remain on any part of its structure (including its doors) while this rule is in effect, the Dreadnought and the Drop Pod benefits from the Shrouded special rule. The Shrouded rule also applies to any unit targeted by any shooting attack whose line of sight passes through or over the Drop Pod on the game turn of its arrival. Note that this will also affect the Dreadnought firing out through the cloud."

 

The last sentence is what gives them shrouded since its a debuff placed on the dreadnought's attacks that apply shroud, and not a directional thing 

[Terminus]

The barrage thing is interesting.

 

The last sentence only clarifies that the dreadnought is also subject to the shrouding being applied to their attacks, since technically they aren't drawing LOS completely through or over the pod, but from within it. The key word is that it applies to "any unit targeted by a shooting attack whose line of sight passes through or over the Drop Pod".

 

LOS for vehicles states "Note that, even when firing Barrage weapons, the target unit must be in the weapon’s arc of sight." So here you draw line of sight from the model even with with a barrage weapon, although you could also take it to mean that the gun in question must be "physically" able to fire in that direction (this rule appears in the section explaining LOS of turrets and sponsons etc.).

 

On the other hand, "To determine whether a unit wounded by a Barrage weapon is allowed a cover save, and when determining Wound allocation, always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model." - This suggests you treat the shot as coming from the center of the template, which before now has been good enough, but in this case the applied Shrouded rule specifically references the drawn line of sight.

 

As a compromise, I would play it that if you are subtracting ballistic skill from the scatter (i.e. firing directly with LOS), they get shrouded since you drew LOS through or over the cloud.  If you choose to fire indirectly without LOS with full scatter, then they wouldn't get shrouded.  Who knows what is intended.

 

 

As far as firing at a vehicle contained within another vehicle, how do you determine facing and percentage concealed? All FW emails are worth less than nothing in the grand scheme of things. Whichever side you adopt, you're effectively playing with a house rule until it is clarified by someone who is not a customer service monkey.

[Brother Aiwass]

By logic you aren't getting any save from smoke. It can be understandable if applied to a bolter or storm cannon because smoke disrupt the LOS so the unit firing cannot see properly the enemy, but against blast barrage weapons?

[Charlo]

I'd agree with Terminus here. Direct fire... Coversave. Indirect... No shrouded.

 

Either way, the Grav bombard is suuuper mandatory now perhaps, don't personally like the Melta option if the enemy can get a 5+ against it (though I suppose if there were no combat threats around you could still disembark?)

[SkimaskMohawk]

@terminus I just got the answer, which coincidentally is exactly how my group had played it: "Thank you for your email. When the guys here in the office play, we place the Dreadnought in the drop Pod to show the facing and this then also determines its line of sight for shooting. This way it is obvious to everyone which way it is facing and what it can target." obviously the leviathan is a bit big so you just mark the direction

[Terminus]

That still doesn't answer concealment. I guess if you can't place the model in the pod it's just destroyed per the "if you can't place it you lose it" rule? Or just assume it's concealed "just because"?

 

I read the rule per it's grammar structure and how it's now being "clarified" by the day's intern, but when we tried it there were just too many stupid rule interactions. We will continue flipping for it, I guess.

 

The LOS debate actually gives insight to how to get around the shrouding. If you step to the very edge of one of the doors, your LOS wouldn't be drawn over any part of the pod and thus not grant shrouded. Likewise you wouldn't get shrouding from the front either (but have a 4++ or 5++ anyway), while any flank shots against you would still give you shrouding (important for Cortus with AV11 sides with no save). So even with the interpretation posited here, you would be able to at least have charge immunity and be able to fire your guns unimpeded, you're just getting shot right back.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Sorry I was at work so I didn't really reply that well. The answer was purely for determining facings for shooting at and with the Dreadnought. Pretty much just in the vein of pick a mark the direction for reference. Doesn't have anything to do with the cover save via BR