Burning Retros Answer

[Theredknight]

Glad we have the worst bols contributor's official say so. We can all go home now folks

Haha skim we may have argued, but I like the cut of your jib

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

SkimaskMohawk:

Glad we have the worst bols contributor's official say so. We can all go home now folks

And one of the creators of THE worst 30k video batreps.

Again, see multiple examples of this board on FW emails being flat out wrong, misconstrued, or stupid. We've had a guy answer the question one way, then get overruled by someone else (rapier range). We had a guy misunderstand the question entirely yet somehow give the right answer (snipers and vehicles). And we had a guy put forth a rules interpretation that only works if you invent half a dozen house rules (burning retros).

[The laughing raven]

so surely it should be: 

 

opt to stay inside and get a cover of 5++ with an add -2 for shrouding, but have anyone you fire on receive shrouding until 2nd turn when you can assault etc as usual, hence the drop pod being an assault vehicle...

if stay inside for the 2ndturn  only get the 5++ for cover and can be targetted as usual by shooting or assaults.

 

bear in mind this thing is basically three massive doorways that can let a 20ft tall machine walk out without probs so is about as open topped as you can get so you could shoot an elephant through once the smoke clears from the landing, so shooting or charging should be allowed for anything short of a knight, once the initial smoke has cleared....

 

or 

 

Disembark keep shrouded and lose the cover save, but can't be assaulted till the smoke clears, but moves normally from there.

 

To me this is a halfway point from where if you stayed inside you got 3 av12 hp as ablative shield in old form which is frankly way to good for the dread player, but still gives a degree of protection rather than a mountain...

 

so to me it says be sensible stay in the pod for a turn and get the benefits of shroud before charging out and being a monster turn two :)

[Slips]

These are the interpretations as they stand:

 

#1:

• Land -> Burning Retros in effect

IF the dread remains inside:

• can be shot at, cannot be charged.
• If the Dread shoots or is shot at: Target/Dread gains Shrouded.

If the dread disembarks:

• Can be shot at only gains shrouded if LoS passes over Drop Pod and vice versa if it shoots at a target
• Can be Charged

Next Turn: If the dread remains inside:

• Can no longer be shot at per the normal rules for a unit being embarked in a vehicle
• Cannot be assaulted per the normal rules for a unit being embarked in a vehicle
• No Shrouded
• Can Disembark and Assault in the same turn.

 

#2:

• Land -> Burning Retros in effect

Dread Hops Out:

• Gains Shrouded if shot at
• Cannot Be Charged
• Target its shooting at does not get shrouded unless LoS passes over the Drop Pod

Remains inside:

• Cannot be shot at as per the normal rules for a unit being embarked in a vehicle
• Cannot be charged as per the normal rules for a unit being embarked in a vehicle
• Target its shooting at gains shrouded

Next turn, if remained inside:

• Cannot be shot at per the normal rules for a unit being embarked in a vehicle
• Cannot be charged as per the normal rules for a unit being embarked in a vehicle
• Target its shooting at does not gain shrouded due to Burning Retros no longer being in effect

As far as I know, these are the two ways we've been seeing this.

 

And to me, since #2 modifies/breaks the least amount of BRB rules, its the one I'd run. It also makes the most sense when you couple it with the "Next Turn" bit.

Because, as I've posted about before, #1 Causes:

• Turn 1 Smoke Obscured Drop Pod Comes Crashing Down: SHOOT THE DREADNOUGHT IN ITS POD!
• Turn 2 Smoke Dissipates (Burning Retros is not longer in effect), Dread is plainly visible: WELL WE CANT SHOOT HIM NOW! THE RULES SAY SO!

[Theredknight]

Very well put together slips

[The laughing raven]

Sorry to be a pedant slips but you just repeated the two results for staying in 2nd turn but missed the assault option on second....

 

My question would be, if you can shoot something on the first turn why would you not be able to shoot it the next, i'm sorry but if you can do it once why not again or does it need to be written in blood to play a dice game with toy soldiers?

Like i said in my last comment this isn't just a rhino with the top open but a giant metal flower pod that opens petals tall and wide enough for a leviathan which must be a good ten metres tall & 3-4 metres wide charge out how can you say it can't then be shot into, Unless the doors have reclosed?

 

The simplest and fairest interpretation is the one i put above, that way it makes up for the moan people had that they were losing the drop pods void shield effect by giving a 3++ cover, but then on the next allowing you to be shot, so nobody pulls a douche move of leaving a double cannon, double assault cannon levi that cant be assaulted or shot.....

[Terminus]

He just left off where it can disembark and assault portion.

 

Your suggestion is a house rule, and if you have to invent several house rules in order to make a rule function, it's a bad rule.  Slips point is that the second interpretation breaks fewer core rules.

 

So now we have a house rule for facing, house rule for concealment, house rule for the pod in general on the second turn, and now another house rule for assaulting a model inside a vehicle.

[The laughing raven]

Okay the simple sentence at the very end; after this point Both the dreadnought and the drop pod may be assaulted and shot at normally.

Simply put after the burning retros has passed you can target either.

[Spinsanity]

Okay the simple sentence at the very end; after this point Both the dreadnought and the drop pod may be assaulted and shot at normally.

Simply put after the burning retros has passed you can target either.

Your reading of the rule is wrong, however.

 

In regards to ant embarked model, being charged and shot at normally means not being an eligible target, hence the issues Slips pointed out earlier :

Next Turn: If the dread remains inside:

• Can no longer be shot at per the normal rules for a unit being embarked in a vehicle
• Cannot be assaulted per the normal rules for a unit being embarked in a vehicle

[Slips]

Also the reason why the dread can no longer be shot at on the following turn if you go with #1 is because the Rule, Burning Retros, is what lets you do that when it Deepstrikes and specifically states that it lasts for 1 Game Turn.

 

Once that game turn is over, Burning Retros and thus the exception to the standard operating procedures, goes away and you can no longer shoot the dread in his pod.

[Brofist]

Exactly. That was what originally made me question our original interpretation (case #1). Not only does it make an exception to the basic rules, but the effects are entirely irrelevant after one turn.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Slips you are on top of these situations... Respect for you !

[The laughing raven]

No if it states BOTH can then be shot at normally it would be a change to the basic rule or it would say the dread can no longer be shot at after this point or that only the drop pod is then targettable, its a simple sentence as if you could no longer be targetted people would never leave the pod once its dropped as why give up three hull points added to a leviathan with dual bombard or storm cannons that cant be shot at but can still fire out unimpugned?

[Spinsanity]

TLR, you're still missing the point, though.

 

The rule does not say it can be shot at and charged. It says it can be shot at and charged normally.

 

In regards to a transported model, that means NOT being an eligible target.

 

Turn 1 : The rule lets you shoot the dread, but it is shrouded (according to your interpretation)

Turn 2 : The normal shooting rules now apply, which means it can no longer be shot at.

[The laughing raven]

I'm guessing most of you are american from these responses and your understanding of how the sentence works?

As if it meant only drop pod it would not say BOTH the dreadnought AND the drop pod, it would say after the retros effect comes to an end, normal targetting restrictions come back into play (which would be you cant shoot an embarked sqaud).

GW/citadel have been like this for twenty five years, if a rule is changed then that then breaks the usual BRB book hence it being a special rule, common sense says if i could shoot in at -2 on first turn then shoot it normally the only difference is you do not get shroud.

 

Or put it more simply if i said you can take an upgrade which means you can place your dread anywhere on the table you like it can shoot without any himdrances after its first turn and you get 3 extra hull points for it and you cant be damaged until theses 3 points have all been stripped off first, I'm sure you would complain, that 100pts is to cheap....

Also I hope if that is your interpretation, that you get two dakka ass can levis dropped in your deployment zone, which by your own interpretation of the rules you cant attack.....

[Charlo]

You are taking the rules as assumptions and real world common sense (RAI) as to what is actually written on the pages (RAW) my friend. Slips has it with #2 I feel due to the interactions with the main rules.

 

The way you are complaining about in your second paragraph is exactly how they have been played up until now, the only difference being some rules have been clarified and it actually got nerfed. Before the enemy didn't get shrouded and the pod was much cheaper.

[The laughing raven]

I am reading them as written;

 

The burning retros effect lasts from the player turn in which the drop pod landed until the controlling player's next turn. After this point, BOTH the Drop pod AND the Dreadnaught may be ASSAULTED and SHOT at normally.

 

So as written you may assault or shoot the dreadnought from here on.

When you reread the earlier rule;

 

Dreadnought inside does not have to deployout unless the controlling player wishes, and if this is the case, though it may still be targeted by shooting attacks, it may not be charged while this rule is still in effect.

 

These written as they are say that you can stay inside for one turn and not be assaulted, then once the retros effect has ended may be assaulted or shot as usual ie i have los to to the dread, i can shoot it or assault it or i can shoot/assault the drop pod

 

This a change to the standard rules for an open topped vehicle and would superesede the BrB and takes into account that this isnt a small access point, but a cathedral doorway and stops cheesemongers while molifying the nerf by giving you the option to gain a 3++ from the cover or get a sneaky deployment move,so ypur prize models not just tarpitted or fried, but means you then no longer get to hide afterwards like the standard drop pod doesn't when it first open.

 

Also i would like to point to the unit type; vehicle (open-topped transport (special))

 

(special)= has own rules rather than following standard format.

Hence when if it says you may target both normally, you can target both rather than just the standard, only target transport.

[Spinsanity]

I am reading them as written;

 

The burning retros effect lasts from the player turn in which the drop pod landed until the controlling player's next turn. After this point, BOTH the Drop pod AND the Dreadnaught may be ASSAULTED and SHOT at normally.

I do understand your viewpoint, but I have to disagree with you. Your logic is innerently flawed.

 

By your logic, once the Burning Retros rules have expired, the ONLY rules that apply when shooting the dread (or the pod) are the basic shooting rules. Everything else (otherwise it's cherry-picking), including Vehicle/transport vehicle rules, special rules, etc, no longer apply since the ONLY rules that apply are the standard shooting rules.

 

Note that these rules do NOT cover shooting models with no Toughness value.

 

Also, and here's a more concrete example :

MODELS IN THE WAY

A model [...] can never move or pivot through another model (friend or foe) at any time. To move past, they must go around.

You CANNOT, at ANY TIME, move through the pod to assault the dreadnought. And you can't move around it either, since the dread is surrounded by the pod.

 

How, pray tell, can you therefore, "assault the dreadnought normally" ?

[Terminus]

I'm guessing most of you are american from these responses and your understanding of how the sentence works?

We know how to read, we know what the sentence says from a purely grammatical standpoint (did you read the thread before launching your argument? because we keep going in circles it seems). It's just if interpreted literally, the rule is idiotic and breaks the game.  Also counting on FW for grammatical precision is a fool's errand, because they couldn't diagram their way out of a wet paper bag.  The RAI interpretation of the rule actually functions in the game without having to invent half a dozen additional rules.

[The laughing raven]

I wouldn't of commented if I hadn't read through. As to arguing a point that is being refused to be grasped I shall leave it and play in the most logical and fair way as intended and written. That there is no benefit to hiding inside the drop pod past the 2nd turn and my enemy may throw whatever he wants at it for being dull enough to stay inside, if i choose to do so, that way I receive no unfair advantage and fits with the cinematic of what would happen, the thing comes down smoke and shells come flying out and when the dust clears and the enemy becomes visible you charge, if not they point every rocket they can at your dumb ar*e for not getting a move on....

[Spinsanity]

I wouldn't of commented if I hadn't read through. As to arguing a point that is being refused to be grasped I shall leave it and play in the most logical and fair way as intended and written. That there is no benefit to hiding inside the drop pod past the 2nd turn and my enemy may throw whatever he wants at it for being dull enough to stay inside, if i choose to do so, that way I receive no unfair advantage and fits with the cinematic of what would happen, the thing comes down smoke and shells come flying out and when the dust clears and the enemy becomes visible you charge, if not they point every rocket they can at your dumb ar*e for not getting a move on....

Well, play it all you want, but if you decide to create a dozen house rules for the experience to be more cinematic/believable, don't discuss it in the OR forum and jump over to the House Rules forum.

[The laughing raven]

I'm not creating a house rule but reading a sentence in the simplest most game friendly manner as i have always played in all the gw games i've had accross the last 25yrs. If it says it can be shot at, it can be shot at, simples and yes i will not comment again if a point will not be registered.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I mean, they're both technically houserules; you have to make up interactions to make "FWs" way work, or you go against it and save yourself a headache. There's decent points for both.

 

That being said, if your'e going to debate something on the rules page, you do need to know how to read the rules and how they interact with the BRB; "reading a sentence in the most simplest most game friendly manner" doesn't count for anything if the actual mechanics of the rule contradict you. 

[Spinsanity]

I'm not creating a house rule but reading a sentence in the simplest most game friendly manner as i have always played in all the gw games i've had accross the last 25yrs. If it says it can be shot at, it can be shot at, simples and yes i will not comment again if a point will not be registered.

Well, we're not the only ones "not registering" others' points.

 

You say the dread can be shot at and assaulted normally. Fine.

 

What does normally stand for, exactly? Where does normally shot at and assaulted begin and end?

 

For example, if I shoot at the dread with a heavy flamer, what happens? Does it get hit by the flamer AND by the No Escape rule (see rulebook page 173) ? If not, which one?

 

So far, your interpretation implies:

- Ignore transport vehicle rule that forbids embarked models from being shot

- Ignore transport vehicle rule that forbids embarked models from being assaulted

- Ignore standard movement rule that forbids models from moving through or over other models

 

But then, what other rules should we ignore when shooting or assaulting the dread? Do we consider only the rules in the Shooting phase (p30-38) and the Assualt phase (p44.55) sections of the rulebook? Does that mean that special rules no longer applies when shooting the dread or the pod?

 

 

 

Yes, it is more realistic and can be considered more friendly. But it DOES cause a hell of a lot of problems rules-wise. Can't you at least acknowledge that?

[The laughing raven]

I aknowledge if you want to stick to every letter of every rule this game becomes a lumbering behemoth and that often the rules are ridiculous when compared to common sense. For example in the old warhammer you used to be able to shoot through a woodland with out problems, whereas in real life most arrows wont make it much past even a hedge due to the way they fly.

Why over complicate when you can see it is logical.

The question you ask applies to the first turns shooting as well, not just the second, so i have changed no rules that have not already been broken have already said for the first turn you ignore all the normal rules and gives the method for new rules and then says you can shoot them both.