Burning Retros Answer

[Terminus]

Except in this case we do have a whole bunch of game mechanics that function, but you are instead proposing all these house rules (whatever you call it, "common sense", not being strict with the rules, whatever... it's still house rules) because you feel they are more cinematic.

 

In addition to the list of inventions provided above, don't forget the newly created rule that determines facing of a model that is not on the table before it does anything, and hand-waving away TLOS and 25% concealment rule for vehicles.

[Sabadin]

Unless I've missed something, I think I've found a much simpler solution. Being a dedicated transport, the embarked unit is not placed on the table. To shoot at the dread "as normal" you have to be able to draw LOS, you can't draw LOS to a model not on the table. Pretty much the only way to shoot at the dread in the pod is to throw out the entire rule book short of the "these are just a guideline" rule.

[The laughing raven]

I aknowledge if you want to stick to every letter of every rule this game becomes a lumbering behemoth and that often the rules are ridiculous when compared to common sense. For example in the old warhammer you used to be able to shoot through a woodland with out problems, whereas in real life most arrows wont make it much past even a hedge due to the way they fly.

Why over complicate when you can see it is logical.

 

The question you ask applies to the first turns shooting as well, not just the second, so i have changed no rules that have not already been broken by the initial rule which says you can shoot into the pod, so those house rules are just the ones supplied from the initial turn, none of my creation. Sorry phone went spanner whilst trting to post, sorry for double up.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think this should be locked now. It's just an exercise in circular arguing now.

[Brofist]

Burning Retros- a gift from FW that keeps on giving

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Exactly.

[Charlo]

Why over complicate when you can see it is logical.

 

 

Because once again, that is your view and you have warped the rules to how you think it should be other than how it is...

 

But yeah. This should be locked with Slip's explanation put in place of every single post :P

[The laughing raven]

so by following Slips "interpretation" (his own words) #2 we have to disregard that FW have said you can shoot the dreadnought whether it disembarks or not on the first turn, personally i'll follow the book rather than a player...

[Spinsanity]

Where did FW say so?

 

“he Dreadnought inside does not have to deploy out unless the controlling player wishes,and if this is the case,”

"this is the case" CAN be read to refer to 'if the player wishes', which would mean there'd be nothing in there saying you can shoot the embarked dread.

 

THIS is the argument you are ignoring.

[Sabadin]

Let's play Devil's Advocate here and assume it does intend for you to shoot into the pod using the normal rules for shooting.

 

Again being a dedicated transport only the pod is on the table, the rule does not declare an exception to this,let's work out a normal shooting attack.

 

1. Declare target : Ok this still works

2. Determine LOS : Can't be done, target isn't on the table.

3. Check if in range : Can't be done, target isn't on the table.

4. Determine facing : again, can't be done, target isn't on the table.

5. Roll to hit: still works

6. Roll armour penetration : doesn't work, which AV do you need to exceed to roll a pen/glance

7. Determine cover saves : again doesn't work as there is no model on the table to determine 25% obscured.

8. Roll damage results : works normally if you manage to find a way to get to this step.

 

 

So 5 out of 8 steps of a "normal" shooting attack don't work, and there's no exceptions in burning retros to make them work. Without FW rewriting the entire rule you simply can't complete the shot without house ruling over half the shooting phase.

[Charlo]

Honestly, you can't even declare the target - as the Dread isn't on the table like you said!

[Terminus]

so by following Slips "interpretation" (his own words) #2 we have to disregard that FW have said you can shoot the dreadnought whether it disembarks or not on the first turn, personally i'll follow the book rather than a player...

Now I'm tempted to just assume you're trolling. Abiding by one vague rule and breaking half a dozen very specific and concrete rules. Follow the book, do what you want, but your argument has held no water and you've just taken this conversation in endless circles.

 

I vote for the lock too.

[The laughing raven]

If you use the proper pod the dread fits inside, unlike your standard transport models where all are tardis's, with out correct scaling. Maybe this rule was introduced to force people to buy the FW pod so the rule can be used properly? As the pics i see of the correct one have a boxnaught stood inside to give the scaling.

I am not trolling if this was such a clear cut case, then why would so many people be asking how the rule works and is intended, when everybody is defaulting to "it breaks the game".

[Slips]

No, actually, Contemptors and Leviathans definitely DO NOT fit inside the Dreadnought Drop Pod.

[Spinsanity]

If you use the proper pod the dread fits inside

What pod have you been using TLR? While box-dreads - the regular, 40k-style ones - fit, Contemptors and Leviathans won't (although you can modify/hack your pod to squeeze a contemptor in).

 

+ Edit : Since I was ninja'd by Slips, here's photo evidence (Note: links to Dakkadakka)

[Sabadin]

@TLR

It only breaks the game if you apply the rule to a dread in the pod. If you apply it to a dread out of the pod, everything works, no hand waving or house ruling required.

[Terminus]

I am not trolling if this was such a clear cut case, then why would so many people be asking how the rule works and is intended, when everybody is defaulting to "it breaks the game".

 

This is what makes me think you haven't been following the discussion since the beginning. When the rules first came out, your interpretation was the prevailing thought of most of those currently arguing against you (Slips, bulba, myself, etc.).  Some folks even got their feelings hurt by how strongly I argued for it (much like you are now), but then again I am not so much a grammar nazi as grammar Hitler.

 

Then we actually played it that way, and realized it only works if you ignore most of the rulebook and just kind of handwave your way through it.  So you are actually in a precarious position here, being a raven among a pack of eaters of crow. :P

 

----

 

And this is just personal opinion and does not pertain to the RAW/RAI debate, but playing it the other way not only prevents most head-scratching rule interactions, it also makes the pod a decent option for a Contemptor Dreadnought. Otherwise it is just too expensive for anything other than a Leviathan given that the first interpretation results in a nerfed defense, nerfed offense, and 50% cost increase. From a game design standpoint, it seems a reasonable balancing approach that the pod is more expensive and works the same as it always has, except if you stay inside for shelter, the enemy gets shrouded, but if you get out to fire, at least you get a turn of charge immunity. 

[Flint13]

This.

 

The End.

 

 

 

These are the interpretations as they stand:

 

#1:

• Land -> Burning Retros in effect

IF the dread remains inside:

• can be shot at, cannot be charged.
• If the Dread shoots or is shot at: Target/Dread gains Shrouded.

If the dread disembarks:

• Can be shot at only gains shrouded if LoS passes over Drop Pod and vice versa if it shoots at a target
• Can be Charged

Next Turn: If the dread remains inside:

• Can no longer be shot at per the normal rules for a unit being embarked in a vehicle
• Cannot be assaulted per the normal rules for a unit being embarked in a vehicle
• No Shrouded
• Can Disembark and Assault in the same turn.

 

#2:

• Land -> Burning Retros in effect

Dread Hops Out:

• Gains Shrouded if shot at
• Cannot Be Charged
• Target its shooting at does not get shrouded unless LoS passes over the Drop Pod

Remains inside:

• Cannot be shot at as per the normal rules for a unit being embarked in a vehicle
• Cannot be charged as per the normal rules for a unit being embarked in a vehicle
• Target its shooting at gains shrouded

Next turn, if remained inside:

• Cannot be shot at per the normal rules for a unit being embarked in a vehicle
• Cannot be charged as per the normal rules for a unit being embarked in a vehicle
• Target its shooting at does not gain shrouded due to Burning Retros no longer being in effect

As far as I know, these are the two ways we've been seeing this.

 

And to me, since #2 modifies/breaks the least amount of BRB rules, its the one I'd run. It also makes the most sense when you couple it with the "Next Turn" bit.

Because, as I've posted about before, #1 Causes:

• Turn 1 Smoke Obscured Drop Pod Comes Crashing Down: SHOOT THE DREADNOUGHT IN ITS POD!
• Turn 2 Smoke Dissipates (Burning Retros is not longer in effect), Dread is plainly visible: WELL WE CANT SHOOT HIM NOW! THE RULES SAY SO!