BLACK BLΠFLY Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 Primarchs have the Eternal Warrior special rule . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325054-praetorian-of-dorn-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4605253 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ak1508 Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 Primarchs have the Eternal Warrior special rule . That's spot on, but I think he meant the huscarl, not Dorn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325054-praetorian-of-dorn-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4605279 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 Probably a mortal wound but not instantaneous death. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325054-praetorian-of-dorn-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4605293 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 Archamus definitely was the difference in the battle, otherwise his whole story arc is pointless, and it would fundamentally change two Primarchs' nature (the sneaky smart Primarch is actually retarded and the stern straightforward one is actually Machiavelli). Pretty sure French deliberately inserted Archamus so that disgruntled Alpharius fans could have a comeback Right... the guy who was literally the focus of the majority of the novel was just shoehorned in there because French is petty, but not that petty. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325054-praetorian-of-dorn-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4605360 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallen11 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 Probably a mortal wound but not instantaneous death. Know what's better, and you can do it with literally any axe/sword? Chopping ones head for example. So whole special special spear becomes completely useless, since it apparently doesn't do the job at what it's supposed to, and that's to kill efficiently. Why bother wit ha spear that after you pierce ones heart, you have to wait and wait till the guy dies, when at the same time, you can take most common axe, and chop someones head, and BAM, he is dead instantly(unless he is a chicken, and he lives on for some time). So fancy spear fails at basic level which is to kill stuff, and is outclassed by simple axe when it comes to killing. Instead of poking dorn, BAM, chop his head, spear ain't gonna do that, axe will, so will sword etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325054-praetorian-of-dorn-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4607823 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 His spear deals very well with armour (ruleswise), might be a reason he uses it over a sword or an axe. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325054-praetorian-of-dorn-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4607933 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 You recall that Space Marines have two hearts, right? Piercing just one is not the end of the world. The spear is a superior weapon to an axe or sword for the most part. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325054-praetorian-of-dorn-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4608095 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 Archamus definitely was the difference in the battle, otherwise his whole story arc is pointless, and it would fundamentally change two Primarchs' nature (the sneaky smart Primarch is actually retarded and the stern straightforward one is actually Machiavelli). Pretty sure French deliberately inserted Archamus so that disgruntled Alpharius fans could have a comeback Right... the guy who was literally the focus of the majority of the novel was just shoehorned in there because French is petty, but not that petty. Nah, it makes total sense that his character would build up to a point where he has literally no impact on the duel, despite the terminology used. Leave b1soul to his fantasies. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325054-praetorian-of-dorn-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4608197 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 Well, it's not the first time for Black Library. Abnett introduced Kasper who was built up whole book to amount to not a damn thing at all in the end. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325054-praetorian-of-dorn-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4608216 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Nah, it makes total sense that his character would build up to a point where he has literally no impact on the duel, despite the terminology used. Leave b1soul to his fantasies. :P Then you're twisting my views I'm not saying Archamus had no impact on that battle I'm saying that based on the text available, we don't know the magnitude of Archamus' impact You're saying that had Archamus not stepped in, it was guaranteed that Dorn would've been offed by Alpharius' super spear strike I'm saying that had Archamus not stepped in, Dorn would've been in more life-threatening danger...but I don't think it's a given that Dorn would most definitely have lost/died Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325054-praetorian-of-dorn-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4608527 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Your view is based on contextualising the word perfect and saying that Archamus is too stupid to understand what he's watching. I wasn't twisting your views at all, read your own posts. You seem to be under the false impression, given past posts, that this 'perfect blow' means that Alpharius was a better fighter than Dorn, or that 10/10 times Alpharius would kill him. That's not what I"m saying/have said in the past. The 'perfect blow' is a literary device made to add weight to the duel between the two Primarchs. This way, Alpharius dies to Dorn in a convincing way, in a way palatable to both Alpha Legion and Imperial Fists fans. It's really quite cleverly done. This god of war took a colossal risk in an attempt to end the fight - and he failed. You've made some childish statements earlier in this very thread acting like if you don't believe your view, others must be an Alpha Legion fanboy unable to cope with the death of Alpharius. It's rather tiresome. The best doesn't always win, and just like in real life outside factors have a very real impact on the outcome of a fight. These are gene-crafted gods, there are only minute degrees of difference between most of them, and the tiniest factor could swing an engagement in ways neither saw coming. That is the nature of warfare. Therefore, it stands based that despite essentially every Alpha Legion plan working during the book, following decades of planning, Dorn simply is so good that he can second guess every plan and then easily kill Alpharius in close combat, and that a veteran of centuries of war and master of Dorn's Huskarls isn't able to judge a blow well enough to understand its ramifications - that his entire presence over the course of the book is essentially pointless, and his heroic actions after being mortally wounded have no impact. In your words, that he's quite stupid. That sounds utterly absurd to me, and undermines the entire novel. Alpha Legion plans being far too convoluted for their own good and being countered is fine, Alpharius being so full of hubris that he sets up his own demise fine, but hopefully you understand the distinction between that and your interpretation of events. I think you take the idea of perspective far too far when seeking answers. Contexualising language directly is a double edged blade. Obviously taking every single thing at face value would be silly, but there is such a thing as going too far. We've both stated our cases multiple times now, and I don't see any new points being made. I felt I owed you an in depth post refuting some of the things you've said in the past, just as an attempt to let you see why I believe what I do. It's evident neither will convince the other. If you want to continue repeating yourself, PM me, but there's nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree. The world keeps turning, and Alpharius is dead regardless. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325054-praetorian-of-dorn-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4608951 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 One of my favorite examples of "the best don't win" is in The Purge there's an ultramarine champion who's carving his way through word bearers, the POV character is thinking of how good he is in melee....and then he gets gunned down like anyone else Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325054-praetorian-of-dorn-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4608956 Share on other sites More sharing options...
slitth Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Perhaps the perfect spear thrust was not supposed to be a death blow. Alpharius did say that he was not there to kill Rogal Dorn Perhaps he only wanted to stun or incapacitate Dorn. I all depends on what Alpharius real mission was. Why he went to all that trouble to infiltrate the Imperial Palace just to blow up some statues. He could have done a lot worse, like kill Malcador the Sigillite. That could have show Rogal Dorn how safe his fortress was. But I think that Alpharius was trying to sent a more subtle message to Dorn After all Dorn made it clear that he understood the Alpha Legion way of fighting, but he do not like it. Perhaps Alpharius was relying on Dorn understanding to send him a hidden personal message. Because if Alpharius really wanted to kill Dorn, he would probably just put a large explosive device, a large portion of life-eater virus or some the like in the roomguarded by some terminatiors until Dorn show up Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325054-praetorian-of-dorn-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4610786 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Without further information, a perfect blow is a perfect blow. Like I said above, it's a literary trope, and reading too far into leaves us with some interesting theories that are based on nothing more than pure conjecture. As for your main point, you're forgetting one key thing - this is Alpharius we're talking about. If you were talking about any other Primarch, any other Legion, you could very well be right. Firstly, the plot of Legion ties into Praetorian of Dorn, which offers a possible explanation as to his motive - he wanted Dorn dead, offering ultimate victory to him by destroying his defences and letting Horus win in order to destroy itself. Could be right, could be wrong, but there's certainly an explanation there. Most importantly, and the reason why you're almost certainly wrong, is because Alpharius and his Legion appear to have pathological need to prove their superiority. In another novel of John French's, Tallarn Ironclad, the operative on Tallarn notes that the Alpha Legion appear to have intense desire to prove their superiority, which is their own biggest weakness and leads to their ultimate failure - keep in mind that this is from the same author. It's been canon in various publications for a long time that the Alpha Legion needlessly complicate plans to show their skills. In Extermination, which French also worked on, we get this: Furthermore, that perhaps some obsession or madness was taking hold of the Legion’s psyche in the way it operated and made war. It had been suggested that the Alpha Legion had begun to seek out battles for the challenge they offered, rather than to suit the needs of the Great Crusade, orchestrating ever more apocalyptic displays of their arcane and malevolent methods of war, even when mere conventional assault would have proved more efficient and expedient. In time the accusation had started to become such common currency among the Terran Court and many Imperial commanders that the Alpha Legion had now become seemingly addicted to bringing low civilisations by anarchy, fire and blood that might have been brought into compliance readily through negotiation or a limited display of force, rather than be turned into strife-torn ruins as a test of the Alpha Legion’s skills. Worse, it was alleged that this need to orchestrate the elaborate destruction of their goes was no mere affectation but a pathological flaw, and one that was only worsening as the Great Crusade progressed. If Alpharius was a sensible chap, then sure, he'd just have blown Dorn up. But he is evidently pretty far from thinking rationally, and as Archamus says right at the end of the novel, pride - your flaw, but not your virtue. Hubris is a big theme of the XX Legion, and it comes back to bite hard in this novel. Besides, I don't think we'd get an interesting story if the Alpha Legion just acted sensibly and tried to blow everybody up like some kind of bright blue space taliban. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325054-praetorian-of-dorn-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4610952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Death by success is it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325054-praetorian-of-dorn-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4610964 Share on other sites More sharing options...
slitth Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Without further information, a perfect blow is a perfect blow. Like I said above, it's a literary trope, and reading too far into leaves us with some interesting theories that are based on nothing more than pure conjecture. True, we never know because the perfect thrust mist it real target do to outside interference. But it would not surprise me if it was not intended to kill. After all it the Alpha Legions strength and flaw to be pragmatic and confident. I would be in Alpharius nature to use every resource that is available. You follow Alpharius plan not mater what side you are on and you die when Alpharius says you die. And perhaps Rogal Dorn was supposed to survive the encounter and play a part of another complex plan. I think that the Alpha Legion's flaw that they do not think they are better, but they are in complete control. They do not care that you are smarter, faster, more disciplined or more powerful. They are pulling the string and calling the shots. That why they make overly complicated plans, for who else has the control of complete and utter chaos other than the Alpha Legion. I do not think that they care about how they kill someone, be it in a duel, a fire fight or by a trap. As long as it follows the plan. They are so much control freaks that they do not mind if some they die. As long as it follows the plan. That want make the so hard to defeat, but it also makes them vulnerable. Because even an Alpha Legion battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy (all the time) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325054-praetorian-of-dorn-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4610989 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 I really don't think so. It's an interesting theory, but there's not much behind it - we can theorise about this sort of thing all day though, so I'll leave the theorycrafting alone. The way the AL work is that they have (example) 1,000 objectives. And if they fail at objective #1, they move on to objective #2, and after that objective #3, and so on and so forth, until they reach a point where they declare that they've won. But you're wrong on one thing - they definitely care a great deal about how they kill someone. They want to prove their superiority at every turn, as part of their insane superiority complex. Their schemes are unnecessarily convoluted, which fits into the aforementioned theme of martial hubris. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325054-praetorian-of-dorn-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4610993 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Well said Marshal Loss. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325054-praetorian-of-dorn-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4610998 Share on other sites More sharing options...
slitth Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 I really don't think so. It's an interesting theory, but there's not much behind it - we can theorise about this sort of thing all day though, so I'll leave the theorycrafting alone. The way the AL work is that they have (example) 1,000 objectives. And if they fail at objective #1, they move on to objective #2, and after that objective #3, and so on and so forth, until they reach a point where they declare that they've won. But you're wrong on one thing - they definitely care a great deal about how they kill someone. They want to prove their superiority at every turn, as part of their insane superiority complex. Their schemes are unnecessarily convoluted, which fits into the aforementioned theme of martial hubris. Yes, the hydra aspect are more that kill one leader and another will take his place. I also go to their planing. You stop one plot only to uncover two more. And yes they care a great deal about how they kill someone. But its not about beating the swordmaster in a honourable duel that important to them, but that the swordmaster die in the manner and time that the Alpha Legion wants. After all they take a great deal of care and time in planning things, I would not do to let enemy die because he was at the wrong place at the wrong time. It a matter of great pride to them that they do not just kill an enemy, they utterly defeat them. They take one that hard battle with the bare minimum of force because to them it not a test of strength, but a show of force. When they fight the outcome is already determined in their mind. They will hit a World Eater so hard that he will not know what way to charge. They will hit a Ultramarine so hard that he will not know that page of the Codex Astartes he could turn to. They are not noble honourable warriors, they are assets of war. They can do what ever is need, when ever it need. Because they think that they are not trapped in a illusion of that war should be. It is this that makes them a formidable opponent and weak that the same time The unbeliever martial hubris that make them think that they have all the answers, all the control and every one else are just fools. But Alpharius did not have all the answers and that cost him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325054-praetorian-of-dorn-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4611338 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 You recall that Space Marines have two hearts, right? Piercing just one is not the end of the world. The spear is a superior weapon to an axe or sword for the most part. History would have a word with you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325054-praetorian-of-dorn-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4612380 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Yes, it would want to buy me a drink, as spear and pike formations basically ruled the field while bows did most of the killing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325054-praetorian-of-dorn-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4612415 Share on other sites More sharing options...
adreal Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Granted i havnt listened to the whole story yet, but at the begining horus did say the legion was flawed, and when Silonius kills the first imperial fist on the walkway there was a telling narritive about how they saw their way of war. Alpha legion like to be a unknown element, while knowibg the capabilites of thier enemy, they will then press towards any advantage they can muster. Alpharius and dorn's fight, from what i have read here, seems to suggest that, Alpharius had a spear that could kill dorn, Alpharius tried to press that advantage, it cost him big time, sad as it is, Alpharius lost because he thought he could win Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325054-praetorian-of-dorn-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4613531 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 If Alpharius was a sensible chap, then sure, he'd just have blown Dorn up. But he is evidently pretty far from thinking rationally, and as Archamus says right at the end of the novel, pride - your flaw, but not your virtue. Hubris is a big theme of the XX Legion, and it comes back to bite hard in this novel. Besides, I don't think we'd get an interesting story if the Alpha Legion just acted sensibly and tried to blow everybody up like some kind of bright blue space taliban. i don't actually buy the pride angle. i buy why dorn would think that, and why the gene cultist would and as a consequence why everyone in 40k does...but i think its far more layered than that,. it's too bad we never got to hear alpharius' response to archamus' charge of pride. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325054-praetorian-of-dorn-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4613625 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Alpharius and dorn's fight, from what i have read here, seems to suggest that, Alpharius had a spear that could kill dorn, Alpharius tried to press that advantage, it cost him big time, sad as it is, Alpharius lost because he thought he could win Well, he could win, right? It's just an unforeseen interruption by a Fist who was too stubborn to die from his mortal wounds that ruined his plan. IIRC, he struck three times, no? Each time closer to the mark? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325054-praetorian-of-dorn-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4613635 Share on other sites More sharing options...
adreal Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 Alpharius and dorn's fight, from what i have read here, seems to suggest that, Alpharius had a spear that could kill dorn, Alpharius tried to press that advantage, it cost him big time, sad as it is, Alpharius lost because he thought he could win Well, he could win, right? It's just an unforeseen interruption by a Fist who was too stubborn to die from his mortal wounds that ruined his plan. IIRC, he struck three times, no? Each time closer to the mark? Im not sure, when i get upto that part of the book ill know Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325054-praetorian-of-dorn-spoilers/page/10/#findComment-4613644 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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