Praetorian of Dorn (spoilers)

[Marshal Loss]

 

If Alpharius was a sensible chap, then sure, he'd just have blown Dorn up. But he is evidently pretty far from thinking rationally, and as Archamus says right at the end of the novel, pride - your flaw, but not your virtue. Hubris is a big theme of the XX Legion, and it comes back to bite hard in this novel.

 

Besides, I don't think we'd get an interesting story if the Alpha Legion just acted sensibly and tried to blow everybody up like some kind of bright blue space taliban.

 

i don't actually buy the pride angle. i buy why dorn would think that, and why the gene cultist would and as a consequence why everyone in 40k does...but i think its far more layered than that,.

 

it's too bad we never got to hear alpharius' response to archamus' charge of pride.

 

 

Of course there's more to it than simple arrogance - you could go so far as to say that their confidence in who they are and what they do is their virtue as well as their flaw - but Alpharius is definitely an over-confident, proud figure. The textbook definition of hubris. It's not all he is, but it remains a huge part of his identity.

 

If you disagree, I'd be interested to hear what your take on it is

[mc warhammer]

 

 

If Alpharius was a sensible chap, then sure, he'd just have blown Dorn up. But he is evidently pretty far from thinking rationally, and as Archamus says right at the end of the novel, pride - your flaw, but not your virtue. Hubris is a big theme of the XX Legion, and it comes back to bite hard in this novel.

 

Besides, I don't think we'd get an interesting story if the Alpha Legion just acted sensibly and tried to blow everybody up like some kind of bright blue space taliban.

 

i don't actually buy the pride angle. i buy why dorn would think that, and why the gene cultist would and as a consequence why everyone in 40k does...but i think its far more layered than that,.

 

it's too bad we never got to hear alpharius' response to archamus' charge of pride.

 

 

Of course there's more to it than simple arrogance - you could go so far as to say that their confidence in who they are and what they do is their virtue as well as their flaw - but Alpharius is definitely an over-confident, proud figure. The textbook definition of hubris. It's not all he is, but it remains a huge part of his identity.

 

If you disagree, I'd be interested to hear what your take on it is

 

 

maybe i have a higher tolerance for "pride" but i never interpreted any of the alpha legion's or alpharius/omegon's actions in the hh series as being overly prideful (beyond that of the average primarch, which is to say, already quite high).

 

there are plenty of different displays of pride, from perturabo's injured sort to horus' hidden pride (where.is.my.statue) to fulgrim's flamboyant example. but i can't really think of any instances with the AL that leap out to me. there was the confused portrayal in the IA where "martial pride" and impressing others was very important, but at the same time, alpharius rejected glory and honours.  i know a lot of purists prefer the youngest sibling syndrome thing, but i personally thought it was silly and boring.

 

everything in "legion",  seemed to indicate a legion and primarch/s that almost couldn't be bothered with reputation (somewhat closer to the white scars). i suppose the argument could be made that they enjoyed their martial pride in private;  as long as they could prove to themselves that they were the most awesome of awesome then that was all they needed to be able to sleep at night. hence, why the twins and their legion always came up with convoluted plans and schemes when a simplistic and "honest" approach would have better suited.

 

my take on those plans is that the convolution is in itself the point. we see their chaos and misdirection unnerve the fists and loyalists effectively in PoD. it's not a system of hoops they create so they can leap through them like performing acrobats.  to alpha legion, it isn't convolution, it's the ultimate pragmatism.

 

their way of war is not a vehicle for vanity, it's a big scary weapon.

 

like i said, i'd really like to know what alpharius was about to say when archamus accused him of pride.

[Withershadow]

Pride in our own cleverness? This goes back to even the original Index Astartes, the Alpha Legion had a chip on their shoulder as the "youngest" Legion without a long official record, and sought to compensate with elaborate plans. It kind of stems from their spec ops background, where they accomplished major objectives using a relatively minimal amount of operatives. These tactics didn't appeal to his more straight forward grind-them-down-in-open-battle brothers, and he took it a bit personally.

 

I think a large portion of their motivation for overly complicated plans goes back to the Slaught narrative for one of the twins. My theory is that Alpharius-Omegon are both the first and the last Primarch to be found. The first was the one deposited on Bel'Savor, and was twisted by the Slaught invaders into a tool of discord and chaos (with a little c). This is where the Emperor bursts into the scene on a golden barge (Webway Custodes exploration ship, anyone?), rescued his first son and put him under his wing. Given the damage done, he kept him close by and had him handle the "Ghost Legion" operations. Then when the other twin was encountered and befriended by Horus, the Emperor decided to release him into full Crusade service (because a. twin can help/support him, b. the final stages of the grand design are starting to take shape so the Emperor's busy, and c. Malcador has set up various Ordos and Offices that handle much of the Ghost Legion's previous tasks). Away from the Emperor's influence, the Slaught conditioning begins to surface more and more, thus leading to the obsession with ever grand designs of strife and ruin that is described in Book IV.  Rather than being impressed by his clever antics, the brothers he finally gets to interact with largely hold him in contempt (remember Horus was the only "friend" and he was close to the other twin). Downward spiral ensues. The Cabal mind-blasting him with future-vision probably shook loose a few more marbles, hence his rambling during the encounter with Dorn.  In other words, Alpharius = as damaged as Angron and as crazy as Kurze.

 

So really, we should feel relief for poor Omegon. He was this cool self-dependent space pirate guy, finally meets one of his cooler brothers, then finds out most of the rest are snobby dicks who have already done most of the fun stuff, and he has to hide in the shadows to take care of his "special needs" twin.  When he felt alone at the end of the book, he probably was like "OMG, I'm finally alone!"

[Marshal Loss]

Like Withershadow hinted at, the idea of the Alpha Legion taking pride in their approach is an old one. Lots has changed, but if anything this arrogance has been reinforced. From the brother who met Horus first, to IA, to Legion, to HH: Extermination, to PoD, there have been many different iterations under many different authors.

 

Everything the Alpha Legion does is infused by the arrogance that their way is the right way. They stand alone in a way that no other Legion does, even the Scars. Yes, all Primarchs are arrogant, but Alpharius and his Legion certainly have a unique philosophy (and likely, according to Tallarn Ironclad, HH: Extermination and interviews with John French, a unique mental illness of some description). Everything they do is, to a degree, about pride. They operate in a way that no other Legion comes close to emulating. Their clandestine and convoluted plans are very often unnecessarily so, done simply because they can, simply because it's what they do. The very nature of their operations is to achieve as many objectives as possible before declaring victory, rather than setting one goal in stone and sticking to it - by their own definition, they can never lose.

 

From Tallarn: Ironclad, also by French:

 

'Demand: List known psychological qualities of the Twentieth Legiones Astartes, designation Alpha.'
 She was speaking out loud. She could not help it. The old face of her mentor was grinning at her from her memory, and she catapulted through a loop of question and response that she had not begun and could not stop.
 'Response: Known psychological qualities include superiority/inferiority complexes, sublimated into complex psychopathic behaviour requiring the acknowledgement of superiority by an enemy and/or ally.'
 'Demand: Project data of recent confrontation in line with this data, and previous mission data.'
 'Projection: The Alpha Legion know I am here. They want me to know who they are. They want me to know how good they are. They want me to know before they kill me.'

 

That about sums up my view of the Alpha Legion. Supremely talented, intelligent and utterly ruthless. Probably the most dangerous Legion of all, their only real weakness would be themselves. Innately driven to demonstrate their superiority time and time again, in the belief that they can never lose. Nobody has to know, except by accident or where it suits their purposes. They wouldn't believe in petty egos or personal glory like the Sons of Horus, because they are the Alpha Legion, and they are Legion. None of that matters. Only victory does, which is always assured.

 

I totally agree with your third paragraph - that's the case I'm making, although there are some exceptions. Pride takes many forms, and by doing things their way, and winning according to their definitions, they are in their mind proving their superiority over alternative philosophies and approaches. There are enough anecdotes, particularly in Bligh's HH work and older articles, that show them doing things to prove a point. And you're right, it is a big scary weapon. But it's also a vehicle for vanity. These aren't mutually exclusive concepts. Their methodology and philosophy can be everything you've said while still being a medium through which they express their superiority. That's my view anyway.

[IronDrake28]

Marshal Loss, you've hit the nail on the head (for me at least). The AL have such a strange mix of arrogance and indifference.

[mc warhammer]

Like Withershadow hinted at, the idea of the Alpha Legion taking pride in their approach is an old one.

that makes three of us who've restated the same point now, ha.

 

Everything the Alpha Legion does is infused by the arrogance that their way is the right way. They stand alone in a way that no other Legion does, even the Scars. Yes, all Primarchs are arrogant, but Alpharius and his Legion certainly have a unique philosophy (and likely, according to Tallarn Ironclad, HH: Extermination and interviews with John French, a unique mental illness of some description). Everything they do is, to a degree, about pride. They operate in a way that no other Legion comes close to emulating. Their clandestine and convoluted plans are very often unnecessarily so, done simply because they can, simply because it's what they do. The very nature of their operations is to achieve as many objectives as possible before declaring victory, rather than setting one goal in stone and sticking to it - by their own definition, they can never lose.

the thing is, none of really pans out in the books i've read. their plans are convoluted, but i'm unsure at what point it's demonstrated that they are needlessly so? it's hard to point to what was excessive, if anything. even the debate between dorn and alpharius didn't prove anything on either side.

 

if there's a story i missed that proves this, give me the breakdown. maybe possibly potentially the entire plan in PoD , but because we don't know the goals or intention we can't properly judge it.

 

i get that your interpretation is the accepted one. it's the classic AL. but other than your opinions and supplied point of view character opinions, i haven't seen anything to change my mind that the alpha legion are more prideful than the rest.

 

keep in mind that this is coming from my limited reading: legion, PoD, serpent beneath and the raven guard stuff. i'm taking the hh series as canon and happily letting the IA article be forgotten or retconned as poorly written imperial propaganda and myth. not sure where bligh fits in.

 

i'm probably the one out of touch like one of those fellows that can't accept the 40k setting is about the imperium's fall.

[Marshal Loss]

Hey, I stated it first :P I'm in the middle of something right now but I'd be happy to comb through texts and find more points at some point if that's what you want.

 

Don't get me wrong, it feels like we're saying the same things (mostly) but seeing different endings. The interaction between Dorn and Alpharius is one example. Read the HH: Extermination text on the AL by FW, and also Tallarn: Ironclad. I reference Ironclad a great deal because it's also by French, which is important as he's always been a fan of the AL and his idea is extremely relevant when taking into account what we see in Praetorian of Dorn. We also see our opinions on the AL from a non-Astartes (but still extremely qualified) character. I'm not using Index Astartes as canon here, Bligh's version basically updates and replaces it. Frame the novels in the context of FW's work and Ironclad and it all makes sense.

[Legatus]

I am not sure how much the Alpha Legion's arrogance and pride has been adressed in the Horus Heresy series, but it has been their core theme since 2nd Edition, and has been described in the Forgeworld book as well. The first to write about them in the HH series was Dan Abnett, and he is notoriously dismissive of established lore, preferring instead to give his own personal take of what the Legion would be like. (His description of Guilliman hating Alpharius while Alpharius just ignores Guilliman is pretty much a 180° from the previous lore, where Alpharius had been furious about Guilliman and others not acknowledging his and his Legion's prowess.) The subsequent HH entries were then perhaps following Dans lead more than the previous GW lore. The FW treatment is a very good example of Alan Bligh managing to reconcile the new HH take with the original lore.

 

The AL core tag line from 2nd and 3rd Edition:

 

"The Alpha Legion was the twentieth and last legion created in the first founding. (...) Though the youngest Legion, the Alpha Legion sought to outshine its brethren in all things as if to prove their worthiness amidst the older Legions."

- 2nd Edition Codex Chaos, p. 14

 

"The Alpha Legion was the twentieth and last Legion created in the first founding. Though the youngest, or perhaps because of it, the Alpha Legion sought to outshine its brethren in all things, as if to prove their worthiness amidst the older Legions."

- 3rd Editon Codex Chaos Space Marines, p. 32

 

"The Alpha Legion was the last of the First Founding Chapters and from its inception was determined to prove its worth relative to the older Legions."

- 3.5 Codex Chaos Space Marines, p. 40

 

Full descriptions for anyone who is interested:

 

"The Alpha Legion was the twentieth and last legion created in the first founding. Under the critical eye of their Primarch during the Great Crusade the Legion became renowned for its discipline and strict organisation. Though the youngest Legion, the Alpha Legion sought to outshine its brethren in all things as if to prove their worthiness amidst the older Legions. The Alpha warriors adopted the symbol of the hydra as their Legion's symbol. This many-headed, dragon-like creature from ancient myth served to remind the brethren of the Alpha Legion of their ultimate unity in body and spirit. On the battlefield the terrifying coordination of the Alpha Legion was their hallmark, their attacks kept the enemy under relentless pressure while they sought a weak point in their defenses.

When Horus made his pact with Chaos the martial pride of the Alpha Legion was their downfall. The Warmaster was a mighty warrior himself, he commanded armies and fleets and fought at the forefront of the Emperor's wars. By comparison he made the distant Emperor on Terra seem a weak and cowardly individual. The Warmaster was a leader worthy of their respect, the Emperor sought only to exploit Horus's conquests and crush the liberated humans of the galaxy beneath his stifling regime. So the lies were insinuated into the hearts and minds of the Alpha Legion, and if any lie is repeated often enough it begins to be accepted, and once accepted it becomes truth.

Joyously, the Alpha Legion clashed with loyalist Space Marines on Istvaan V and the campaigns thereafter. Here at last was an opponent fully as tough, as war trained, as ferocious as themselves. The brethren of the hydra inflicted stinging defeats on the loyalists at Tallarn, Yarant and dozens of smaller outposts before moving onwards into the Ultima Segmentum like an all destroying comet. The Alpha Legion became entirely separated from the forces of Horus but continued to wage war on all they came across. By the end of the Heresy they were inventing objectives and missions of their own to fulfil their war-lust without reference to their allies."

- 2nd Edition Codex Chaos, p. 15

 

"The Alpha Legion was the twentieth and last Legion created in the First Founding. Though the youngest, or perhaps because of it, the Alpha Legion sought to outshine its brethren in all things, as if to prove their worthiness amidst the older Legions. Their pride led to a number of incidents where members of the Alpha Legion clashed with and even fought against members of the other legions in existence at that time. In particular there seems to have been a strong mutual hatred between the Alpha Legion ans the Imperial Fists as they had clashed on more than one occasion prior to the Heresy.

When Horus made his pact with Chaos, the martial pride of the Alpha Legion was their downfall and they were among the first to join him. The legion clashed with loyal Space Marines on Istvaan V and in the campaigns thereafter, any need for restraint forgotten."

- 3rd Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines (1999), p. 32

 

"After that meeting [with Guilliman], Alpharius pushed his Legion even harder and sought out the most difficult challenges for his forces. He knew he could not equal the number of worlds conquered by the older Legions, for they had been founded centuries earlier, but he seemed determined to win their respect for his Legion's martial prowess. (...)

His conduct in the battle for Tesstra invited censure from many quarters, (...)  Alpharius was furious at the reaction to his Legion's masterful performance. Only Horus openly praised the manner in which the Alpha Legion had overcome an opposition that outnumbered them a hundred to one. Horus was the only other Primarch with whom Alpharius had any regular contact. The two appeared to respect each other greatly and are thought to have discussed tactics often. (...)

Exactly when Alpharius chose to side with the Warmaster is not clear. Certainly, he spent more time with Horus than he ever did with the Emperor. Perhaps there was an understanding between them right from the beginning.

However, it is not thought that Alpharius was blindly following Horus, for he seemed to have his own agenda. He relished every battle against loyalist Space Marines as the ultimate test of military skill. Again and again, the Alpha Legion proved it was the match of the other Legions. Alpharius's forces started going out of their way to find Space Marine opponents and inflict stinging defeats on the loyalist White Scars at Tallarn, a Space Wolves company at Yarant, and other Legions at dozens of smaller outposts. Well before the Warmaster's forces reached Terra, the Alpha Legion had become separated but continued to wage war on all they came across. Even after the defeat of Horus on Terra, the Alpha Legion continued on unchecked, apparently inventing objectives and missions with absolutely no connection to the rebellion as a whole."

- 3rd Edition Index Astartes Alpha Legion

 

"The Alpha Legion was the last of the First Founding Chapters and from its inception was determined to prove its worth relative to the older Legions. Their Primarch, Alpharius perpetuated this rivalry and encouraged self-reliance, discipline and innovative tactics in his Legion. The Alpha Legion respected strength and despised the weak. They were drawn to the strength of Warmaster Horus and welcomed the opportunity to test themselves against their brother Space Marines. Although they joined the Heresy the Alpha Legion stayed distinct from the other Traitor Legions and fought its own campaign."

- 3rd Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines (2002), p. 40

[slitth]

I do not think that Alpha Legion´s clandestine and convoluted plans are unnecessarily so. But might be in the other legions eyes.

For some legions a conquest is just like cracking a nut, you just need a big enough hammer to crack it.

 

But for the Alpha legion it not so. To them is more complex.

And if you need prosecute a complex campaign to conquer a world, you might as well to do right and thoroughly.

 

Nor would I call the Alpha Legion boastful, vain or lofty as they are willing to do the dirty work and to work with baseline humans.

But they are overconfident of their skill and plans.

They expect that no one would see through their true plans, they expect that the enemy will react as they want to and they expect that they are prepared for anything.

After all they are involved in every part of warfare. Even the part that are seen as dishonourable or below a Astartes status. They therefore know and control every part of warfare.

Or so they think

[Withershadow]

I consider anything by Abnett to be very loosely related to the actual events. He's the most embelishment-prone Remembrancer of them all, and his books take place in the Abnett-universe.

[slitth]

Do it even matter if we even agree about the overall nature and motivation of the Alpha Legion.

They are riddle hidden in an enigma writing with lemon juice on a old piece of paper.

Our lack of knowing about them makes the a good choice of a warband where you want a sneak backstory.

 

But even if we had a defined information about Alpha Legion there are still dangers of the overall theme

Just look at the Imperial Fists. We have at least 3 distinct chapters after the Horus Heresy.

 

I could think of a few ways to interpret the Alpha Legion brand of arrogance, depending on who leads them.

The book I have read of the reminder me of the very arrogance version of the CIA/KGB doing the cold war, but in am not sure their real goal is.

[mc warhammer]

Hey, I stated it first I'm in the middle of something right now but I'd be happy to comb through texts and find more points at some point if that's what you want.

 

Don't get me wrong, it feels like we're saying the same things (mostly) but seeing different endings. The interaction between Dorn and Alpharius is one example. Read the HH: Extermination text on the AL by FW, and also Tallarn: Ironclad. I reference Ironclad a great deal because it's also by French, which is important as he's always been a fan of the AL and his idea is extremely relevant when taking into account what we see in Praetorian of Dorn. We also see our opinions on the AL from a non-Astartes (but still extremely qualified) character. I'm not using Index Astartes as canon here, Bligh's version basically updates and replaces it. Frame the novels in the context of FW's work and Ironclad and it all makes sense.

 

yeah, it's a bit like we have two different interactions with the same thing. and i actually see that as distinct from the "different interpretations" discussion that usually comes up on this board.  if we think of it terms of an actual person, say alpharius... we've both met the guy. your impression of him is that he's prideful, i thought he was just a normal dude. you've hung out with him a bit more than i have. i've heard rumours from people that he's a tad arrogant, but until he shows me that side himself, i'm going to dismiss those rumours.

 

as for "extermination" or any of FW books, i sympathise with legatus here when it comes down to accessibility. after hearing so much about them on these boards i went into (my first!) GW store last week to try and buy one and was told they were next to impossible to find offline. then i found out the price. as a casual fan,  it's a little more than i'm willing to part with until i make my zillions of dollars.

 

@legatus and withershadow - i have no problem with dan's 180 approach. it's what brought me into BL fiction and he depicted an AL that i really enjoyed. at the end of the day, BL and GW approved his work and it still plays well with current depictions (up to and including PoD) so i won't dismiss it just yet. if it weren't for abnett, i wouldn't be here.

 

i think my experience of the AL is pretty much in line with slitth's. i completely agree that they are overconfident, but that doesn't necessarily translate as pride. and it's not like that confidence isn't well deserved, by virtue of the way they operate and the success they have with it, it would be hard not to become comfortable in the belief that you hold all the cards.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Well they lost their primarch, a major battle then fled like cowards so maybe it's not well deserved. Pride coming before the fall and all that.

[Withershadow]

Now that is being needlessly confrontational. Also completely untrue. Losing a Primarch is fair, the goal seemed to have been to kill Dorn (the head of the Solar defense), silence the outer ring of surveillance and communication, and sabotaging the defense platforms to be able to be turned against the loyalists, all without anyone knowing. Those are all worthy goals that losing a Primarch is an acceptable price for failure. The remaining Legionnaires accepted his loss pretty matter-of-factly, rather than needlessly rushing to their death which you apparently consider courage.  If anything, it speaks to the strength of his way of war, that the XXth Legion didn't even skip a beat at losing a Primarch, something that pretty much shattered every single other Legion.

 

Even calling it a "major battle" is pretty comical, since the only strategic defeats the Alpha Legion has so far suffered are from magical maguffin battle stations that show up out of nowhere and have the firepower to obliterate whole solar systems. Why even bother with fleets with a single one of these things can obliterate everything? Just put Dorn on starfort-building duty full time, and it's game over for the galaxy and beyond.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It's not a major battle in the sense the Imperial Fists so quickly stymied AL. I am sure though AL considered a major battle considering all the time and effort invested.

[Marshal Rohr]

Nevermind

[mc warhammer]

Well they lost their primarch, a major battle then fled like cowards so maybe it's not well deserved. Pride coming before the fall and all that.

 

if losing a primarch is the bar to judge a legion on, then all 18 are just as undeserving of credibility at some point on the timeline. similarly regarding "flee like cowards".

 

pride comes before the fall is a simplistic proverb. you don't necessarily make mistakes due to pride. pride doesn't have to lead to a downfall. a lot of the time, pride just keeps chugging along very happily. it's actually pretty poor advice outside of the biblical god's rules. although i can see why it would be touted by the imperium of man, since their mindset is so in line with the worst of that kind of thinking.

 

as for whether the AL really did fall into an overconfidence trap in PoD, i think this quote from dorn to alpharius is interesting:

 

" I knew it was you on that throne, but not because you made an error in your masquerade. You made no mistake. Yet I still knew it was you. Think on that, brother."

[Marshal Loss]

The analogy doesn't work. There are older texts you do have access to but dismiss, and more modern ones you don't have access to but dismiss when hearing them from others, despite the weight of evidence. You asked for quotes and sources, this was provided by Legatus and myself, and duly dismissed. A little frustrating. I'm sorry you can't get your hands on these materials though, I hope you do one day - not out of a childish desire to make you see my way, but simply because (as you're obviously an AL fan) you get the opportunity to see the complete picture. But we're obviously not going to agree given the different platforms we're talking from so it's best to leave it there. I've dropped you a PM.

[mc warhammer]

The analogy doesn't work. There are older texts you do have access to but dismiss, and more modern ones you don't have access to but dismiss when hearing them from others, despite the weight of evidence. You asked for quotes and sources, this was provided by Legatus and myself, and duly dismissed. A little frustrating. I'm sorry you can't get your hands on these materials though, I hope you do one day - not out of a childish desire to make you see my way, but simply because (as you're obviously an AL fan) you get the opportunity to see the complete picture. But we're obviously not going to agree given the different platforms we're talking from so it's best to leave it there. I've dropped you a PM.

 

i'm a little confused by this. i'm not here to win a discussion, just put forward a point of view. i was just expanding on your "we're saying the same thing" line. i thought we'd both gotten to the point where we accepted each other's, but i seem to be wrong.

 

let me try to explain my analogy better: you have much more to go on than i do about alpharius, which puts you at an advantage. i was attempting (and failing) to show how i came to my current head canon. don't take the word "dismiss" to heart. i'm not dismissing the validity of what you or anyone else is saying in the grander scheme of things, only that it doesn't have any impact on the image of alpharius in my head. if alpharius were a bloke we both know and you warned me about him, i would have my eyes open, but until i had a negative experience with his pride myself, my feelings towards him remain the same.

 

as i've said a few times now, i'm the outlier here. i'm the odd one out in my interpretation. i don't know how to make that any clearer, sorry.

 

and here i was thinking analogies make things easier ha.

 

oh, and btw i'm not a AL fan, just to be clear. i don't have favourite factions.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Which faction do you like most ?

[mc warhammer]

Which faction do you like most ?

 

i won't go too far down this path for everyone else's sake. i'm not a 40k player, i'm a casual reader of the BL novels (though i did read one rulebook and the IA articles as a kid). i'm equally fascinated by all legions and factions in the 40k universe, even if certain depictions leave me cold.

 

so i never care who wins or who looks the best, i'm not on anybody's side. i just want a good story.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I like the afterword by John French. It really explained a lot to me.

[Withershadow]

 

" I knew it was you on that throne, but not because you made an error in your masquerade. You made no mistake. Yet I still knew it was you. Think on that, brother."

 

Yet in the passage he intently stares at one guy, then another, before finally settling on his target. Didn't seem to me like he just sniffed him out.  If he really was able to just know "before he entered the room", he would have been aware of Omegon. Both twins could have been in that room that day, for all we know. I don't think Malcador would be that frantically worried if Alpharius was just some silly chump who liked Rube Goldberg machines a little bit too much.

[mc warhammer]

 

 

 

" I knew it was you on that throne, but not because you made an error in your masquerade. You made no mistake. Yet I still knew it was you. Think on that, brother."

 

Yet in the passage he intently stares at one guy, then another, before finally settling on his target. Didn't seem to me like he just sniffed him out. If he really was able to just know "before he entered the room", he would have been aware of Omegon. Both twins could have been in that room that day, for all we know. I don't think Malcador would be that frantically worried if Alpharius was just some silly chump who liked Rube Goldberg machines a little bit too much.

i didn't read that as "little bro, you're a silly chump", more dorn letting him know that he was alpharius' equal. alpharius made no mistakes, but you don't need a mistake to lose, you just need a worthy opponent.

 

i also felt dorn's intent stares weren't his attempts to sniff out the true alpharius (or omegon, whichever twin was present), but he was more studying alpharius' ruse, looking for flaws and imperfections as he would with anyone's defenses.

 

i doubt either of the smaller dupes were the other twin (there was a definite size difference) but if they were, that would certainly put a massive hole in dorn's point.

[Marshal Loss]

 

The analogy doesn't work. There are older texts you do have access to but dismiss, and more modern ones you don't have access to but dismiss when hearing them from others, despite the weight of evidence. You asked for quotes and sources, this was provided by Legatus and myself, and duly dismissed. A little frustrating. I'm sorry you can't get your hands on these materials though, I hope you do one day - not out of a childish desire to make you see my way, but simply because (as you're obviously an AL fan) you get the opportunity to see the complete picture. But we're obviously not going to agree given the different platforms we're talking from so it's best to leave it there. I've dropped you a PM.

 

i'm a little confused by this. i'm not here to win a discussion, just put forward a point of view. i was just expanding on your "we're saying the same thing" line. i thought we'd both gotten to the point where we accepted each other's, but i seem to be wrong.

 

let me try to explain my analogy better: you have much more to go on than i do about alpharius, which puts you at an advantage. i was attempting (and failing) to show how i came to my current head canon. don't take the word "dismiss" to heart. i'm not dismissing the validity of what you or anyone else is saying in the grander scheme of things, only that it doesn't have any impact on the image of alpharius in my head. if alpharius were a bloke we both know and you warned me about him, i would have my eyes open, but until i had a negative experience with his pride myself, my feelings towards him remain the same.

 

as i've said a few times now, i'm the outlier here. i'm the odd one out in my interpretation. i don't know how to make that any clearer, sorry.

 

and here i was thinking analogies make things easier ha.

 

oh, and btw i'm not a AL fan, just to be clear. i don't have favourite factions.

 

 

I struck the wrong tone. I meant no insult, nor do I care about winning or losing, and I accept your view in light of what you've said. I still don't like or agree with your approach (the approach being separate here from the conclusion you've reached), but while I was mulling it over on a drive into UQ in between posts to pick up an unrelated book, I've reached the conclusion that I'm just not used to talking to somebody who doesn't share the same holistic philosophy. I feel like I was blissfully unaware that there were people who didn't have anything to do with the tabletop, and the decades of background that surround it. This is the AoD rather than the BL forum though, but my apologies for the terse post. I will say though that this

 

 

so i never care who wins or who looks the best, i'm not on anybody's side. i just want a good story.

 

is something I find bizarre but admirable. I can't imagine not having my favourite toy space soldiers to cheer on. :P