Praetorian of Dorn (spoilers)

[Fire Golem]

I think that Alpharius did not want Dorn dead, but on top of his game.

After all, he knows that Dorn would see though the reason of the attack and rework his defences to something even better.

That's how I read it too. He was using the attack to show Dorn the flaws in his defences, but Dorn killed him before he had a chance to explain anything.

[Calas Typhon]

Whats the best way to not kill Dorn and improve defences of the system, lets just 1v1 that will show him!

[slitth]

Whats the best way to not kill Dorn and improve defences of the system, lets just 1v1 that will show him!

Or he needed to talk with Dorn face to face.

Dorn is too stubborn to acknowledge or trust any other form of contact.

and he needed the attack as a cover up for the meeting with Dorn.

 

or that's what I think the plan was about.

 

But that doesn't really matter, because whatever the plan was it failed

[rendingon1+]

Dorn would never listen to any traitor period. Also he loathed Alpharius, they were not even on speaking terms before the heresy so it doesn't make sense x2.

[Withershadow]

 

I do not think that Alpharius is working towards the Cabals vision of victory.

 

I think they are working towards the cruel future that we see in 40K.

 

I think this because that fits the nature we are shown in Legion.

 

- They believe in the utopian dream, but know that is cannot be fulfilled, their job is a endless duty.

So the Cabal utopian goal of permanently defeating chaos would not be a plan that they would believe in.

It more in they nature to go with the long suffer of mankind to ensure their survival.

 

- They will do a lot to get the enemy in the a position where their death is certain.

I think that they know that they would not be able to defeat Horus in a war.

They are forced to bring Horse to the one place where he can be killed.

I would not be surprised if we see an Alpha legion agent responsible for disabling the shields of the Vengeful Spirit.

 

I think that Alpharius did not want Dorn dead, but on top of his game.

After all, he knows that Dorn would see though the reason of the attack and rework his defences to something even better.

 

Considering how several BL authors tend to treat every hair-brained Abnett flight of fancy as gospel, I don't think they are letting the Cabal idea die.  Since we have two Primarchs, and one is actively working against them, it's likely the other bought into the idea.

 

The idea that Alpharius went to all that effort to just talk with Dorn makes him sound like an idiot, and I don't think the most devious of Primarchs should be an idiot (no matter how crazy he is).  Everyone among the Primarchs knows how straight-forward and uncompromising Dorn is, you think he will really stop and listen and have a discussion with a Primarch he always loathed, who apparently declared for Horus, whose soldiers are confirmed to have participated in the Isvaan massacre (and potentially masterminded the whole trap), who had the Imperial palace infiltrated to blow up statues and call Dorn out, has destroyed multiple defensive layers and killed thousands of Imperial servants (apparently just to make a point), and just carved his shoulder open with a spear thrust?  Really? Really?

 

Alpharius was actively trying to kill Dorn in the fight, and before the fight even started, he was mocking the Huskarl for "being sent here to die in his [Dorn's] stead".

[slitth]

 

 

I do not think that Alpharius is working towards the Cabals vision of victory.

 

I think they are working towards the cruel future that we see in 40K.

 

I think this because that fits the nature we are shown in Legion.

 

- They believe in the utopian dream, but know that is cannot be fulfilled, their job is a endless duty.

So the Cabal utopian goal of permanently defeating chaos would not be a plan that they would believe in.

It more in they nature to go with the long suffer of mankind to ensure their survival.

 

- They will do a lot to get the enemy in the a position where their death is certain.

I think that they know that they would not be able to defeat Horus in a war.

They are forced to bring Horse to the one place where he can be killed.

I would not be surprised if we see an Alpha legion agent responsible for disabling the shields of the Vengeful Spirit.

 

I think that Alpharius did not want Dorn dead, but on top of his game.

After all, he knows that Dorn would see though the reason of the attack and rework his defences to something even better.

 

Considering how several BL authors tend to treat every hair-brained Abnett flight of fancy as gospel, I don't think they are letting that die.  Since we have two Primarchs, and one is actively working against them, it's likely the other bought into the idea.

 

The idea that Alpharius went to all that effort to just talk with Dorn makes him sound like an idiot, and I don't think the most devious of Primarchs should be an idiot (no matter how crazy he is).  Everyone among the Primarchs knows how straight-forward and uncompromising Dorn is, you think he will really stop and listen and have a discussion with a Primarch he always loathed, who apparently declared for Horus, whose soldiers are confirmed to have participated in the Isvaan massacre (and potentially masterminded the whole trap), who had the Imperial palace infiltrated to blow up statues and call Dorn out, has destroyed multiple defensive layers and killed thousands of Imperial servants (apparently just to make a point), and just carved his shoulder open with a spear thrust?  Really? Really?

 

Alpharius was actively trying to kill Dorn in the fight, and before the fight even started, he was mocking the Huskarl for "being sent here to die in his [Dorn's] stead".

 

 

I have not see the twins working against one another in all the novels I have read about the Alpha Legion.

Nor have I read that single word that shows that they are following the "Horus must win" cabal plan blindly.

There are too many hints to the contrary, to take anything at face value.

 

Or I can be reading to much between the line, and see something that isn't there.

 

But on matter how I look a it, placing Alpharius in that room with Dorn is a risky move.

If Alpharius wanted Dorn dead, the the would be far more devious way of doing so.

A big old dirty bomb would probably be a good way of killing Dorn.

 

No, I think that Alpharius has be leaving messages too Dorn all over the book.

Not to "help" with the defence of Terra and the death of Horus.

The Alpha Legion already have that planned out is that is the case.

But to prepare for the war to follow.

 

Dorn would need proof to be able to trust the Alpha Legion again.

Nearly killing Dorn and the sparing him would be just be a small part.

Telling Dorn how the siege of Terra is gonna end might seal the deal.

 

But all this in base on the gamble that Dorn understands the Alpha Legion way, he just despise it.

 

But yet again I might be reading too much between the line and Alpharius just wanted to kill Dorn personally.

A little dumb for such a devious primarch, but hey nobody perfect.

[Marshal Loss]

I think Alpharius was working towards the Cabal's vision. My theory is that while likely insane to some degree, he had planned the death of Rogal Dorn on Pluto as a necessary part of his plan; with Dorn dead, it would have been an easy win for the Traitors when they reached the throneworld. Alpharius wanted to trap and kill Dorn, but also wanted to explain to him why he had to die, as in his mind it wasn't personal:

 

 

 

'I can give you victory, brother'

 

By killing Dorn, he would ensure victory by enabling Horus' triumph at Terra - which would then facilitate the ultimate victory over Chaos, according to the Cabal's vision. He wasn't trying to talk Dorn into working with him, or switching sides. He clearly intended to kill Dorn, and likely would have done so if it wasn't for his hubris. When he tells Dorn he's not there to kill him, and he's not there for Horus, it's an allusion to his allegiance to the Cabal.

 

 

If Alpharius wanted Dorn dead, the the would be far more devious way of doing so.

A big old dirty bomb would probably be a good way of killing Dorn.

 

I don't think there is any substance at all to the idea that he had brought Dorn there just to talk to him; Cabal or no, Dorn was brought there to die. Yes, placing himself in a room with Dorn is (frankly) a stupid decision, but that's literally what the Alpha Legion do. Unnecessarily complicated plans that are designed to demonstrate their superiority is basically their defining trait.

[slitth]

I think Alpharius was working towards the Cabal's vision. My theory is that while likely insane to some degree, he had planned the death of Rogal Dorn on Pluto as a necessary part of his plan; with Dorn dead, it would have been an easy win for the Traitors when they reached the throneworld. Alpharius wanted to trap and kill Dorn, but also wanted to explain to him why he had to die, as in his mind it wasn't personal:

 

 

 

'I can give you victory, brother'

 

By killing Dorn, he would ensure victory by enabling Horus' triumph at Terra - which would then facilitate the ultimate victory over Chaos, according to the Cabal's vision. He wasn't trying to talk Dorn into working with him, or switching sides. He clearly intended to kill Dorn, and likely would have done so if it wasn't for his hubris. When he tells Dorn he's not there to kill him, and he's not there for Horus, it's an allusion to his allegiance to the Cabal.

 

 

If Alpharius wanted Dorn dead, the the would be far more devious way of doing so.

A big old dirty bomb would probably be a good way of killing Dorn.

 

I don't think there is any substance at all to the idea that he had brought Dorn there just to talk to him; Cabal or no, Dorn was brought there to die. Yes, placing himself in a room with Dorn is (frankly) a stupid decision, but that's literally what the Alpha Legion do. Unnecessarily complicated plans that are designed to demonstrate their superiority is basically their defining trait.

 

Ultimate victory over Chaos is an unreachable utopian goal.

And I think that The Alpha Legion know this very well.

 

And the "talk" would probably be Alpharius giving a long speech about how this is gonna end, instead of a conversation.

While Dorn tries to recover from having his primary heart pierced.

[Calas Typhon]

Could he survive a heart pierce from the Pale Spear though? 

[Withershadow]

A not quite as severe series of stab wounds put Kurze in a coma. Pale spear to the face and heart would probably result in another sparks-full Highlander scene.

 

Considering the Chaos Gods now are inexorably linked to humanity (except for maybe Slaanesh to some degree), the extinction of the species would probably not be good for them, considering even the Imperial Truth was seen as a "plague of unbelief" that "ravaged the domain" of the Annihilator.

 

I don't see Alpha Legion suddenly becoming metaphysical philosophers. They are quite good judges of character, however, and should know that Dorn won't change his mind or actions over the monologue of a traitor.

[Dantay VI]

What if Alpharius planned to kill Dorn and take his place a la Alpha legion infiltration of the Raven Guard and by taking Dorns place bring "Dorn" victory :)

 

The remaing Alphas also take the place of other Imperial Fists. Particulsrly Dorns body guard

[Marshal Loss]

 

Ultimate victory over Chaos is an unreachable utopian goal.

And I think that The Alpha Legion know this very well.

 

 

And what evidence do you have for this? The Alpha Legion are lunatics. Read HH: Extermination, and look at the multitude of insane acts they do throughout the novel series because they can. Not only that, but the only interactions we have with the Cabal so far are the Alpha Legion apparently siding with them at the end of Legion, and Omegon hurling their representative out of his ship.

 

 

 

And the "talk" would probably be Alpharius giving a long speech about how this is gonna end, instead of a conversation.

While Dorn tries to recover from having his primary heart pierced.

 

 

I'm not sure how you can see somebody throw a killing blow at somebody and decide they're there for a conversation. While I could very well be wrong, it appears to me that you have an idea of how you want Alpharius and his Legion to be, and are twisting the facts to suit this perspective. He could be loyal - he could be not. But he sure as hell was not there to have a chat with his brother, and if any Legion would murder a sibling 'for the greater good,' no prizes for who that would be.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

What if Alpharius planned to kill Dorn and take his place a la Alpha legion infiltration of the Raven Guard and by taking Dorns place bring "Dorn" victory :)

 

The remaing Alphas also take the place of other Imperial Fists. Particulsrly Dorns body guard

Please let's not even hypothetically suggest this before somebody takes this as a possible truth

[Withershadow]

 

 

Ultimate victory over Chaos is an unreachable utopian goal.

And I think that The Alpha Legion know this very well.

 

And what evidence do you have for this? The Alpha Legion are lunatics. Read HH: Extermination, and look at the multitude of insane acts they do throughout the novel series because they can. Not only that, but the only interactions we have with the Cabal so far are the Alpha Legion apparently siding with them at the end of Legion, and Omegon hurling their representative out of his ship.

There is also another interaction with the Cabal, which specifically points to a rift in the Legion.

In Serpent Beneath, the Cabal gifts Alpharius with a station that is able to utilize some psychic pylon hocus pocus to mess with warp travel.  "Omegon" and a group of Alpha Legion operatives infiltrate the station, kill all the Alpha Legionnaires already on the station, and then blow the whole thing up in an act of sabotage.  The epilogue has Omegon lying to Alpharius about current security breaches and the current situation at the station, setting the stage for a schism in the Legion.

 

Then when we consider that one of the brothers was turned into essentially a living computer of chaos (again, little 'c') and destruction to bring down civilizations from within, and was able to curtail his impulses while under the Emperor's wing, but increasingly started sliding back into old habits as the Legion spread out among the stars, and is now presented with a way to "serve the Emperor" by using his talents to the utmost to bring down the greatest galactic civilization since the Old Ones', it all fits too neatly to be circumstance.

[slitth]

My theory come from a simple quote that is made 2 time in "Legion"

 

"Utopia is a dangerous myth and only a fool would chase it."

"Legion" page 160

 

"We have come to appreciate that Utopian goals are ultimately counter-intuitive to species survival.
No power can engender, or force to be engendered, a state of perfection.
Because perfection is an absolute that cannot be attained by an imperfect species.
It is better to manage and maintain the flaws of man on an ongoing basis."

"Legion" page 160 and 311

 

If this is and example of Alpha Legion way of thinking, then it shows that they do not believe in lofty end goals, but in practical solutions.

They do not think that the Imperium of man will ever be totally united, there will always be some form of strife caused by greed, sense of freedom and malcontent.

 

The Cabal's vision of ultimate victory over Chaos has the same kind of flaw.

You can fight chaos and beat it back, but as long as there is a species with a presence in the warp chaos will remain.

Thinking that chaos will disappear with the last human is wishful thinking.

 

I think the Alpha Legion would prefer to keep fighting Chaos for eternity, instead to leaving the universe to the mercy of wishful thinking.

Even it is a terrible fate and a doom to mankind. The Alpha legion is practical and cruel enough to see it through.

 

But to they are shown that the only way to keep fighting the long fight is to kill Horus.

And the vision shows that only the Emperor can kill Horus, even if Horus death comes at a great cost.

 

So the challenge is to get Horus to the Emperor without Horus winning.

And they also need to keep the Imperium intact enough to keep going after the war.

 

Now that would not be a easy goal, and would take a lot of complex plans to pull of.

 

 

[Brofist]

What if Dorn is Alpharius?

[Withershadow]

Those quotes are really kind of irrelevant, because I don't think extinction of the human race qualifies as utopia even if it does have the side effect of knocking out the major Chaos powers. The Warp would still be there and minor powers would still blink into existence to harass their parent race.

 

If they apply to anything, it's likely the Emperor's Imperial Truth, where humanity rules the stars unchallenged, united in belief and purpose, happily after.

[civsmitty]

My interpretation of why Alpharius was there, and the "perfect strike":

 

Alpharius was there to warn Dorn of exactly "how" Horus planned on winning on Terra, showing him how to not only beat the Traitor Legions, but end the rebellion without their retreating to the Eye. I come to this conclusion by recalling that the Cabal showed A/O a vision of the future; seemingly, this included Abaddon's Black Crusades and the seeming peace after the Scouring (I also read too much into the interaction between Alpharius and Abaddon in...Deliverance Lost?). Alpharius *may* have concluded that this peace could be achieved for longer than the thousand years they got, and was attempting to reach that goal.

 

Furthermore, the perfect strike...Alpharius is a Primarch, and therefore very aware of what they're capable of surviving. I envision him aiming the spear at the right spot to drop Dorn long enough for Alpharius to go, "Alright, you stubborn golden bastard, listen up..."

[carlisimo]

Did we lose a whole bunch of posts in this thread?  It skips from January to September.  I remember posting in it in July or August.

[Withershadow]

What if Dorn is Alpharius?

We are all Alpharius.

[Fire Golem]

Did we lose a whole bunch of posts in this thread?  It skips from January to September.  I remember posting in it in July or August.

There's a similar one in the Black Library sub forum you may be thinking of.

[slitth]

Those quotes are really kind of irrelevant, because I don't think extinction of the human race qualifies as utopia even if it does have the side effect of knocking out the major Chaos powers. The Warp would still be there and minor powers would still blink into existence to harass their parent race.

 

If they apply to anything, it's likely the Emperor's Imperial Truth, where humanity rules the stars unchallenged, united in belief and purpose, happily after.

 

Well the Cabal's vision of ultimate victory over Chaos is bad for mankind, but it's really good for the other races of the universe if it is true.

Because Chaos would be as good as gone, and if no mankind and no Chaos is not an Utopia for the other races, then I do not know what is.

 

And I am highly doubtful that it would really work in the long run.

 

That why I think that the Alpha Legion is going with the Horus dies by the hand of Emperor version.

It is horrible and cruel, but it also far more realistic.

[Withershadow]

Again, it would remove the main 4 (or perhaps 3, Slaanesh could probably hang in there), but each other race still has a warp presence and still creates their own gestalt entities.  Orks are still a thing, Pharos still drew the Tyranids, Necrons are still waking up.  Utopia?  Hardly.

[rendingon1+]

I don't think Abnett's Legion shoud be taken into account at all. XX following Cabal is the dumbest thing ever, other authors tried to finally put an end to this insanity (why else would Alpha throw that Cabal alien through the airlock) yet we're still going with this.

 

My opinion of course.

[Withershadow]

I don't think Abnett's Legion shoud be taken into account at all. XX following Cabal is the dumbest thing ever, other authors tried to finally put an end to this insanity (why else would Alpha throw that Cabal alien through the airlock).

 

My opinion of course.

I agree, most of Abnett's stuff is "the dumbest thing ever", however several other authors that I like better are just ga-ga over him, and continue his threads.  It wasn't Alpharius who threw the COMMUNICATION device (not alien) out of an airlock, just like it wasn't Alpharius who blew up the Tenebrae station.