Praetorian of Dorn (spoilers)

[Terminus]

Black Orange, you've followed now three threads on this topic over dozens of pages of comments, replying to spoiler tagged posts that quoted key passages, arguing with people over fine points of the book, etc (despite not having read any of the material... Like when you started arguing with ADB about a book he wrote which you didn't read)... And now in a spoiler thread you're complaining about spoilers? Get out of here with your noise.

 

The thread is clearly labeled, if people have an issue they can flag it for the mods, no one cares what people tell you and its their own fault for reading a thread labeled spoilers.

[Marshal Loss]

Not to mention the fact that this thread has been here for months now.

[Jackalwolf]

I will admit to it: I never liked how the Alpha Legion was handled by BL, seemingly always having the upper hand against other legions and never truly failing but I didn't appreciate how this book handled the demise of Alpharius.

 

It was rushed and a bit ungraceful, and left me feeling the book could have done with 100 pages less of background filling and 100 pages more of explaining how Dorn managed to outsmart the AL and make them believe he had taken their bait just to sneak on them, since it showed off that Dorn (and by extention most Primarchs)could be just as sneaky as the AL but it's just not his style, just as it was hinted when he schools Alpharius on how could he have infiltrated better the world they both conquered in the flashback.

 

I can't even begin to imagine how Alpha Legion fans must be feeling. The whole shtick to the Legion is smart longterm plans and that's how this book played the first 95% but then the last 5% without explanation on the counter plan, they're undone.

 

Then there's the, mildly irritating for me, conversation of Alpharius to Dorn mentioning how he was planning for Dorn to come and all, when everything else seems to point that Dorn just out manoeuvred the AL since a couple pages before Alpharius is patting himself on the back on how Dorn took his bait leaving Sol system ripe for him to take it. That kind of "whatever happens I had planned for it" was the main reason I didn't like how AL was generally treated by BL.

 

The death of Alpharius firs perfectly with all established cannon, since only Dorn and the Huscarls know about it and he orders it to be kept secret, when in the previous canon Alpharius never died during the heresy but then felt to Guilliman in the age of scouring, leaving the AL without primarch. Then again, the twin state hadn't been revealed yet and thus now the current canon fits perfectly the old canon.

 

That said, I can imagine a number of ways for Alpharius to die that would leave the AL fans with a much better taste:

1. On a duel against Omegon

2. Set up by Omegon in some kind of trap (unless this is what it was)

3. A duel properly developed in which not one of the weakest Primarchs in hand to hand combat defeats him with apparent ease

4. At the hands of Horus

 

Finally on the negative side, I can't get my head around approving having Pluto as a fortress against Horus... You don't need to be an astrophysicist to understand the orbit of the planet furthest away from our Sun will take significantly longer than the Earth to circle once around the sun, and as it is a one year orbit would be ludicrous as a defense station already since space is quite vast and why would any invader enter through precisely the defended spot. The concept is as ridiculous as putting one mine in the middle of the Sahara desert and expect an invader to walk over it... And he actually does.

 

On the plus side, I really enjoyed seeing the AL and the larneans acting as a true offensive army and another Legion being sneaky (IF).

 

Still, overall, didn't really enjoy the book. I know the popular opinion seems to be very favourable towards this book but it was one of the ones I enjoyed the least.

 

Just a bit of math in the Pluto issue:

 

Pluto takes 248 years to orbit the Sun. That's because Pluto orbits at an average distance of 5.9 billion km from the Sun, while Earth only orbits at 150 million km.

 

Having Pluto as the first fortress to Terra seems a bit strange therefore, since it would take a huge lack of planification compounded on a massive coincidence for it to be useful at all.

 

To put it in context, at any point in time Pluto can only be in one place in an elipsis of 22,698,700,000 miles and it only covers 0.001105% of that distance every day.

 

I'm not an astrophysicist and total accuracy is never expected from science fiction as a genre, but versimilitude is a necessity in any good fiction. In some way it's a great compliment that this is the one time I've had that broken from the Horus Heresy series since I've read around 30 of its books, but I feel the book needs a bit of justification on why someone would attack the solar system by crossing Pluto when there are literally 90,519 areas in any given day with a length of 250,000 miles each in a two dimensional space in which the planet isn't present.

[Marshal Rohr]

Three things, but please don't think I'm busting your balls or being a fanboy. Just some lighthearted discussion.

 

I think Dorn outmaneuvering Alpharius was justified from a narrative perspective because Alpharius' hubris had done nothing but pay off for the whole series. It was a real 'I have the high ground, don't try it' scenario and his pride led to his downfall. I don't think the Fists could be as good at unconventional operations as the Alpha Legion by any means, but they could definitely kind of just watch them and expect certain strategies. I had used the example of a Capoeira dance fighter getting floored by a hammer in this or other threads. Graceful, elegant sure, but Dorn kind of just took a few hits on the nose before nailing the Alphas when they planted a foot to shift their weight.

 

Second, Dorn is a weak fighter in the game, but it's been pointed out on this board and other by BL authors that those aren't the word of god power levels of each Primarchs. Also, Dorn didn't actually defeat Alpharius by being the better swordsman, Alpharius was winning the duel skill wise. Dorn simply caught his attack, literally with his body, and disarmed him in a lucky blow when Alpharius was caught off guard. It didn't have anything to do with Dorn being a great fighter, he just took a blow and capitalized on it (which fits the character of him and his legion).

 

Finally, I think LG on the first expedition said they did the math to find out where Pluto would be during the year the book takes place and labeled that as the route Horus would have to take to get to Terra. Also we don't know how Mandeville Points and Warp routes work exactly. Sometimes we see ships come out of the warp in a system, othertime beyond a system. I didn't understand why Pluto would be a fortress instead of just building a series of space stations in a ring around the planet either, but I just wanted to point out they did take the astrophysics into consideration.

 

These are just my thoughts! :)

[Jackalwolf]

Haha no worries, discussion is good.

 

I must have explained myself wrong. I actually enjoyed and thought it made sense for Dorn to outmanouver Alpharius but would have liked 100 pages more of how he did it rather than all the other build up scenes we get.

 

On Dorn power level I guess that's fair and also, Alpharius is allegedly the weakest Primarch in terms of physical prowess as mentioned in several points since the essence that built every other primarch was split in two bodies, and he's always depicted as being significantly smaller than the rest of the Primarchs. (That said good luck for any primarch fighting him and suddenly finding there's another one like him behind...)

 

And yes, I've read Laurie's comment. He basically says that it is indeed ludicrous to think Pluto was a fortress per se towards Terra, and if any Legion crosses Pluto is because they absolutely must. Which harkens back to my point that I felt that the novel didn't justify it. A couple of ideas that could have justified it better:

 

- There's a critical relay station of the astronomicon in Pluto that would leave Terra incomunicated if destroyed

- There's a webway gate orbiting with Pluto from where the Scars emerge, indicating that the AL wanted to obliterate them as soon as they returned to real space

[Legatus]

Though the death of Alpharius in 'Praetorian of Dorn' is a "retcon"*, it plays out very similar to how his death had been described in the Alpha Legion Index Astartes article. The Alpha Legion under Alpharius is fighting a brother and his Legion. Alpharius thinks he is in full control but is then surprised by an unexpected move of his brother, who then catches and conronts him. The duel is very short and Alpharius is dispatched quickly.

Only now it is Dorn instead of Guilliman. (Though perhaps it was originally meant to actually be the Imperial Fists who were to fight the Alpha Legion in their Index Astartes article, but was changed to the Ultramarines at the last minute.)

 

The bigger difference is that from what I hear in 'Praetorian of Dorn' apparently Dorn manages to thwart the plans of the Alpha Legion, while in the Index Astartes article the death of Alpharius did not lead to their defeat (which was the entire point of that story, that the decentralized Alpha Legion can fight on unimpeded when their leader falls, like the mythic multi headed beast which cannot be decapitated).

 

 

*But maybe the original story was all an Alpha Legion ruse, yadda yadda.

[Marshal Rohr]

I may be misremembering (I read quickly) but wasn't Pluto the center of Sigismund's 'sphere', so it had to be attacked or they'd have the second largest chunk of the legion on their flank if they went past it. If that was the case then I think that's probably why they had to attack there. The fists are also noted as being really good at naval warfare, so it makes sense to prioritize destroying their fleets piecemeal, especially after Phall where a numerically inferior Fist fleet was able to defend itself long enough to severely damage the Iron Warriors before being destroyed. Even combined they would've been wiped out by Horus' complete armada, but together they could've done enough damage to hurt his war effort on the ground.

[Jackalwolf]

They did mention something like that but the sphere isn't big enough to cover 1% of the orbit of Pluto or otherwise it would have to be a force in the scale of trillions of ships to cover that extension. Space is so immense that it's super easy to underestimate it's extent.

 

Therefore what's to stop anyone of avoiding that sphere entirely and heading towards Terra, or attacking at one of the points in which their main defensive stronghold isn't present.

 

I'm not so much questioning the verosimolitude of the AL hitting Pluto, since they did have a nice plan to attract all the loyalists to Hydra and blast them with the emplacement of Kerberos, but instead what I question is having a fortress Pluto. It would make much more sense orbiting stations that could be aligned to respond to threats.

[Marshal Rohr]

I took sphere to mean the formation the fists deploy in for defensive void operations. At phall the sphere was a constantly moving tesseract type thing collapsing and expanding simultaneous. God, I used to know exactly what it was, but it's like a mathematical principle. It's description in in Shadows of treachery.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Dorn doesn't need to be a cc monster since he's got Sigs but he is no slouch either .

[The_son_of_Dorn]

To me it seems dorn is always getting the poopy end of the stick. ALTHOUGH I believe this fight had to happen the way it did. Only to show that the AL primarch was not just a cloak and dagger but a skilled combatant.

 

Although dorn has been bested and beaten a lot and this "win" after impalement has secured him the rank of primarch killer it defines something deeper. Dorn will never quit. Never back down. He will always defend his father.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

This was not a poop ending for Fists... Just be glad McNeil didn't write it. ;)

[The_son_of_Dorn]

I didn't mean this book in particular was poop for the fists or dorn. Quite the contrary to best the most covert legion with steep odds. Reminds Horus why the Emperor picked him to build his defences.

[Augustus]

I'm no space buff, but if the warp point is around Pluto what is to stop them arriving and flying up and over Neptune, Uranus, Saturn, Jupiter, Mars and just swoop down on terra from "above"? 

 

Are the "spheres" merely fleets in key locations with fortress/rearming points scattered throughout the system?

[Slips]

Mostly because this is probably how we move through space in our solar system:

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Planets-Orbiting-Around-Sun.gif

 

Since our own star orbits the center of our galaxy.

 

So, sure, this gif is just an animated illustration and is greatly sped up but the Sol System isnt just a flat plane orbiting a stationary object in fixed space.

 

Too, were you to go up and over or down and under, you expose the bottoms and tops of your ships (respectively) while also making it harder to hide your own approach behind other celestial bodies.

 

As I understood it, the spheres are located at key "Passage" points such as Pluto, at its point in orbit when the story takes place, is pretty close to the Warp Lane exit when heading towards Terra meaning until its orbit progresses further, everything headed to Terra arrives in plain view of Pluto first. The same could be said for the other locations for the "Spheres".

[Marshal Rohr]

Slips that gif is triply!

[BrotherCaptainArkhan]

Mostly because this is probably how we move through space in our solar system:

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Planets-Orbiting-Around-Sun.gif

 

Since our own star orbits the center of our galaxy.

 

So, sure, this gif is just an animated illustration and is greatly sped up but the Sol System isnt just a flat plane orbiting a stationary object in fixed space.

 

Too, were you to go up and over or down and under, you expose the bottoms and tops of your ships (respectively) while also making it harder to hide your own approach behind other celestial bodies.

 

As I understood it, the spheres are located at key "Passage" points such as Pluto, at its point in orbit when the story takes place, is pretty close to the Warp Lane exit when heading towards Terra meaning until its orbit progresses further, everything headed to Terra arrives in plain view of Pluto first. The same could be said for the other locations for the "Spheres".

 

Just wanna say, I love this board for the thought and consideration some members give to the background lore. Glad I'm not the only one who has such fondness for the setting.

[slitth]

I like the book. It did not overplay any of the Legions in it.

The Imperial Fists defences were shown to be imperfect in the first part of the book and the Alpha Legion go to show the stuff.

 

They got a Primarch in to the Imperial Palace undetected and manage to get the defence force to show their hand.

That a feat that damages moral and force them to rethink the defences

That a good thing because every battle starts with a battle of the mind.

So score one for the Alpha Legion.

Then the book lets the Imperial Fists demonstrate that on legion is a one-trick pony.

And set a trap for the Alpha Legion.

So score one for the Imperial Fists.

 

In the end the battle was determined by arrogance.

The Imperial Fists in the arrogance thought they set a trap and surprise the Alpha Legion.

 

They could but the Alpha Legion were prepared.

 

Then the Alpha Legion in the arrogance believed that they were in control

 

They were not.

 

Because the outcome of the battle was determined by the placement of one marine.

 

And no tacktick devised of the Alpha Legion or the Imperial Fists had that in mind.

[Augustus]

Nice image. I realize we, the sun, and everything else is moving as well but wouldn't arriving in the solar system have everyone adapt to the local gravity of the star? For example even a "stationary" object orbiting the sun is still traveling"forward" throughout space even though it only appears to be orbiting a stationary sun.

 

My point is that static defenses seem nonsensical. You can fly around them.

It's like how the Germans invaded the low countries.

Yes, they could be exposed but that's why you have sacrificial units, delaying units, and distractions. The goal of Horus shoulder be to out maneuver Terra's fleets and weapon stations wherever possible not to drive through them all and suffer attrition.

 

Dorn's strategy should be to force him into unfavorable space battles. It seems that he's making a Maginot line IN SPACE.

[Jackalwolf]

In the end the battle was determined by arrogance.

 

The Imperial Fists in the arrogance thought they set a trap and surprise the Alpha Legion.

 

They could but the Alpha Legion were prepared.

 

Then the Alpha Legion in the arrogance believed that they were in control

 

They were not.

 

Because the outcome of the battle was determined by the placement of one marine.

 

And no tactic devised of the Alpha Legion or the Imperial Fists had that in mind.

This is the best summary of the book I've seen thus far.

 

And Augustus, I agree in all points and that's why I meant the book should have done more of an effort to justify why attack Hydra since there's no way they HAD TO be there.

[Marshal Rohr]

I may be misremembering but wasn't the Maginot line famously ineffective?

[Lord_Ikka]

It was a decent book for me (just finished it up yesterday). Wasn't especially attached to Alph, so I wasn't sad or surprised when Rogal smashed him. What I did like was the clear tone of the conflict ramping up- it feels like with this book and Angels of Caliban we are getting very close to the actual final battles of the Heresy (which was the in the 14th year of the Heresy and we are around year 12).

 

On the topic of Pluto and fortress-y-ness, hasn't the HH books mentioned Mandenville(sp?) points frequently as some sort of set warp translation points? If these points are both easier to translate to and in a fixed location, then having Pluto as a fortress makes more sense.True, in 3-D combat fixed defenses are not exactly useful, but they can still be far from useless. They were merely part of the Sphere's defenses, with the defense monitors, other fixed bases, and IF fleet elements comprising other assets.

[Marshal Rohr]

There was a quote LG used from 'the Either' by Graham McNeill to explain Mandeville Points. They are places where the warp and real space barrier is thin, describing them as haunted zones. Astropaths and Navigators can see these areas for what they are, and you can defend those areas accordingly. This makes the Alpha Legion attack make more sense in context as they approach via silent running, but now it makes me question why they still chose to attack the Hydra station. My only guess is that Pluto was one of the steps in the astropathic chain and could've blinded the loyalists. Forge World states unequivocally astropathic relays can be knocked out via domino effect, so if you hit a nexus in the chain you can blind everyone beyond that point (the solar system in this case).

[Lord Tharand]

I really enjoyed Praetorian of Dorn and felt it added a lot to both legions involved.  I came away from the book liking Dorn which I had not done in previous books and short stories featuring him.

 

I had more to post but I'm trying to figure out how to work the spoiler tag. :P

[b1soul]

I will admit to it: I never liked how the Alpha Legion was handled by BL, seemingly always having the upper hand against other legions and never truly failing but I didn't appreciate how this book handled the demise of Alpharius.

 

It was rushed and a bit ungraceful, and left me feeling the book could have done with 100 pages less of background filling and 100 pages more of explaining how Dorn managed to outsmart the AL and make them believe he had taken their bait just to sneak on them, since it showed off that Dorn (and by extention most Primarchs)could be just as sneaky as the AL but it's just not his style, just as it was hinted when he schools Alpharius on how could he have infiltrated better the world they both conquered in the flashback.

 

I can't even begin to imagine how Alpha Legion fans must be feeling. The whole shtick to the Legion is smart longterm plans and that's how this book played the first 95% but then the last 5% without explanation on the counter plan, they're undone.

 

Then there's the, mildly irritating for me, conversation of Alpharius to Dorn mentioning how he was planning for Dorn to come and all, when everything else seems to point that Dorn just out manoeuvred the AL since a couple pages before Alpharius is patting himself on the back on how Dorn took his bait leaving Sol system ripe for him to take it. That kind of "whatever happens I had planned for it" was the main reason I didn't like how AL was generally treated by BL.

 

The death of Alpharius firs perfectly with all established cannon, since only Dorn and the Huscarls know about it and he orders it to be kept secret, when in the previous canon Alpharius never died during the heresy but then felt to Guilliman in the age of scouring, leaving the AL without primarch. Then again, the twin state hadn't been revealed yet and thus now the current canon fits perfectly the old canon.

 

That said, I can imagine a number of ways for Alpharius to die that would leave the AL fans with a much better taste:

1. On a duel against Omegon

2. Set up by Omegon in some kind of trap (unless this is what it was)

3. A duel properly developed in which not one of the weakest Primarchs in hand to hand combat defeats him with apparent ease

4. At the hands of Horus

 

Finally on the negative side, I can't get my head around approving having Pluto as a fortress against Horus... You don't need to be an astrophysicist to understand the orbit of the planet furthest away from our Sun will take significantly longer than the Earth to circle once around the sun, and as it is a one year orbit would be ludicrous as a defense station already since space is quite vast and why would any invader enter through precisely the defended spot. The concept is as ridiculous as putting one mine in the middle of the Sahara desert and expect an invader to walk over it... And he actually does.

 

On the plus side, I really enjoyed seeing the AL and the larneans acting as a true offensive army and another Legion being sneaky (IF).

 

Still, overall, didn't really enjoy the book. I know the popular opinion seems to be very favourable towards this book but it was one of the ones I enjoyed the least.

 

Just a bit of math in the Pluto issue:

 

Pluto takes 248 years to orbit the Sun. That's because Pluto orbits at an average distance of 5.9 billion km from the Sun, while Earth only orbits at 150 million km.

 

Having Pluto as the first fortress to Terra seems a bit strange therefore, since it would take a huge lack of planification compounded on a massive coincidence for it to be useful at all.

 

To put it in context, at any point in time Pluto can only be in one place in an elipsis of 22,698,700,000 miles and it only covers 0.001105% of that distance every day.

 

I'm not an astrophysicist and total accuracy is never expected from science fiction as a genre, but versimilitude is a necessity in any good fiction. In some way it's a great compliment that this is the one time I've had that broken from the Horus Heresy series since I've read around 30 of its books, but I feel the book needs a bit of justification on why someone would attack the solar system by crossing Pluto when there are literally 90,519 areas in any given day with a length of 250,000 miles each in a two dimensional space in which the planet isn't present.

Is that you Alpharius?