Plasma Pistols... ever worth it?

[Gorgoff]

Yeah, but do I intend on fighting Terminators with my Terminators? Why would I? I want them to dominate weaker opponents or fight vehicles and the like. Enemy Terminators I shoot with Bolters or tarpid them with.

Or bash 'em to death with my Praevian and his tristy Castellax. Darkfire Lances are great for shooting and killing 2+ dudes.

And if I fight power armoured dudes I can relate on my 2+ save.

[Brofist]

Running and sweeping is a big deal. If you're just comparing them in a vacuum 4++ is always superior, but if you're looking at a troops choice replacement without a transport? I'd go for the faster unit unless their job is camping an objective or poding/striking in. There's room for both in an army I think. Just depends on what you're doing.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

No way, a 4++ is ALWAYS better than a 5++ regardless of situation.

 

The only thing Tartaros is better at than Cata is: Running and Overwatch. You aren't sweeping if you aren't winning combat and a weaker invulnerable save means its less likely to occur in Termy vs Termy

 

That's what I meant... It's obvious.

[Baluc]

Running and sweeping is a big deal. If you're just comparing them in a vacuum 4++ is always superior, but if you're looking at a troops choice replacement without a transport? I'd go for the faster unit unless their job is camping an objective or poding/striking in. There's room for both in an army I think. Just depends on what you're doing.

 

If you play IW, you have some of the strongest terminators-centric builds in the game. Golg (for RoW and Terminators as troops), and Pert for Primarch Chosen, and a LoW and Deepstriking turn 1 troop terminators. But, it really depends on your views of the game in general. I think 30k is a shooting game for 5 of the 6 turns so Terminators who are all but immune to most guns in the game are essentially the best choice for troops, and then it tails of from there. And unlike power armour marines, the more you have the better they get. At games over 2900, all my armies almost always include 20+ terminator armour equipped models. 

[Flint13]

Er, I wouldn't say terminators are any where near immune to most guns.

 

The best way to kill them is to make them roll dice, which is done spectacularly by bolt guns.

[Baluc]

Er, I wouldn't say terminators are any where near immune to most guns.

The best way to kill them is to make them roll dice, which is done spectacularly by bolt guns.

I'd argue that boltguns don't do anything well... optimal use of a non-vet boltgun is likely less effective than using the bolt pistol and charging instead.

 

Access to a dedicated assault skimmer, with drop pod assault puts terminators over the top for me. If I'm not doing Armoured Breakthrough or Orbital assault, I'm generally doing pride/primarch's chosen to leverage dreadclaws. After quad mortars legion terminators are probably the most effecient elites choice as well. They carry a steep $$$ cost to use however.

[Terminus]

^ Interesting comparison, and relevant to my current musings on whether boltguns are worth 2 points per tactical marine. It always helps me sort my thoughts, to put the metaphorical pen to paper, so here goes:

 

A squad of 10 rapid firing would kill 1 terminator on average. Same squad firing pistols and charging in will kill about 2, and that's if the Sgt doesn't have a power axe. So yeah, the volume of guns + melee outweighs just guns if you are looking at the math, but there are several things you have to consider:

- Tactical marines are frequently disembarking from drop pods or Rhinos and cannot charge.

- You may have a good position in cover near an objective you don't want to abandon to cluster up mid-field for enemy templates.

- Boltguns have a 30" threat (18" for rapid fire) vs. 18" for pistols and 6+2D6" for assault (a roll that can always fail you), so you will have more opportunities to fire boltguns than shoot pistols and charge.

- The surviving terminators will crush a few skulls including your Sgt's with their power fists, you lose combat by ~2, and likely break.

- Good thing in this particular instance we're dealing with an enemy unit that won't shoot overwatch or sweep after close combat. Whew!

- It's worth keeping in mind that averages are also deceptive in what happens in actual games, because for every instance where those 10 humble boltguns fail to do any damage or kill just one, there will be an instance when your dice are hot/theirs are cold, and you clean up. That is the beauty of the real Primordial Annihilator - the Dice!

 

Now if we're talking WE/NL/SoH/BA, by all means go forth and puncheth.

[Flint13]

 

Er, I wouldn't say terminators are any where near immune to most guns.

The best way to kill them is to make them roll dice, which is done spectacularly by bolt guns.

I'd argue that boltguns don't do anything well... optimal use of a non-vet boltgun is likely less effective than using the bolt pistol and charging instead.

Terminus makes a good few points there.

 

Rapid firing boltguns, killing a terminator and losing zero marines seems the better choice than charging them, theoretically killing one more, then losing combat. Combat is where your opponents want terminators to be since they punch a lot harder than they shoot. I feel like it's a bad choice to indulge them.

[Captain Idaho]

Plus Overwatch.

[God-Potato of Mankind]

I still have nightmares of when I lost 3 out of 5 Terminators to lasguns.

 

Volume of fire hurts

[LtDan]

It's all down to the dice gods. My two deathshroud tanked a 40 shot fury of the legion last game. But have died to bolters plenty before

[Baluc]

 

 

Er, I wouldn't say terminators are any where near immune to most guns.

The best way to kill them is to make them roll dice, which is done spectacularly by bolt guns.

I'd argue that boltguns don't do anything well... optimal use of a non-vet boltgun is likely less effective than using the bolt pistol and charging instead.

Terminus makes a good few points there.

 

Rapid firing boltguns, killing a terminator and losing zero marines seems the better choice than charging them, theoretically killing one more, then losing combat. Combat is where your opponents want terminators to be since they punch a lot harder than they shoot. I feel like it's a bad choice to indulge them.

 

 

Charging terminators are much more scary. 5 terminators still only have 10 attacks, its something to keep in mind, especially if they are rocking fists or axes. When you add in things like rad grenades, psychic powers etc its almost always better to charge. Tactically as a) you have a chance to wipe the unit, that shooting with bolters doesn't provide, b) the risk is low, you may lose some bodies but the unit will survive as the terminators cannot sweep. So the risk/reward is high. 

 

Terminus is correct in that your bog standard tac squad is a pretty poor way to engage terminators, but the entire point is to not take Tacs anyway. That  being said SoH, NL, etc, are all better off pistol and charging. 10 SoH Tacs for example would do 20 pistol shots (bs5), 20 attacks and then 10 more attacks for their base 125 point cost, so a good value 

[Slips]

The "No Sweeping" only really applies if they aren't using Tartaros.

 

If they're, lets say, Deathshroud Terminators, your Tacs are pretty much boned between their D3 Shred Walls of Death Overwatch (per terminator) and getting +1A for having 2+ models in B2B from Reaping Blow (meaning being charged isn't that bad) followed up with them being able to Sweep.

[Baluc]

The "No Sweeping" only really applies if they aren't using Tartaros.

 

If they're, lets say, Deathshroud Terminators, your Tacs are pretty much boned between their D3 Shred Walls of Death Overwatch (per terminator) and getting +1A for having 2+ models in B2B from Reaping Blow (meaning being charged isn't that bad) followed up with them being able to Sweep.

 

True, I was mostly considering regular legion terminators... Anti-legion unit tactics would vary... 

[Slips]

Well, seeing as you have the option between Cataphractii, Tartaros and Indomitus (why would you ever use this given the choice?) for your TDA needs, any Legion can field Tartaros.

 

And in that case, you'd only really be safe charging Salamander Tartaros Termies since their LA:SAL really neuters their sweeping ability.

 

Otherwise, only Charge Indomitus and Cataphractii if you're going that route.

[Caillum]

Feel like this thread has gone off the deep end. Weren't we talking about plasma pistols? :P

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Yeah way OT  now.

[Terminus]

If you arm your Tactical Squad Sgt. with a plasma pistol, when shooting those terminators you will have a net gain of 0.22 wounds over the pistol and 0.16 wounds over the bolter.

 

Boom! How ya like me now?! :D

[Baluc]

Plasma pistol over inflating expectations since 1998?

[Terminus]

Plasma pistols have always sucked. In 2nd it was sustained fire S6 -1 to saves, and could only be fired every other turn. Who needs that noise when you could be hit&misfiring with vortex grenades.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

They can be okay on grunts depending what are your choices but not worth it for 1 W characters like sergeants.

[DuskRaider]

I like to have them in the occasional Tactical Marine mass, kinda like a Sneaky Pete in an otherwise Bolter-only blob. Comes in handy with my Word Bearers, which run 20-deep and will be (soon) fielding 4+ full 20-man squads. Even then, they're only used in maybe half.

[Terminus]

4x 20-man tactical squads? Is this for a 10,000 point game?

[shandwen]

4x 20-man tactical squads? Is this for a 10,000 point game?

I think its fir someone who has never faced an ironfire list.

[disease]

Plasma pistols work in solar auxilia somewhat at 10pts, overwatch at BS2 etc