Guardians of the Covenant (WIP) [Darkn3ss' tale]

[Bryan Blaire]

I agree with Major_Gilbear regarding batch painting. I'm a very slow painter (I think my Stoneburners blog here is going on 5ish years duration), but seeing a combat squad of five Marines standing there proudly with all their markings, etc., makes for a great feeling, IMO (before you realize that you still have over 140 remaining and need to get your :cuss in gear).

 

If you would like your Marines darker, there's absolutely no reason not to go darker. I almost always retain three - five Marines (usually push fit ones) to experiment with for paint schemes, to explore exactly what you are considering right now.

 

As far as the bits-box-assembled Supreme Grand Master/Grand Master:

1) I am primarily a plastic fan and always prefer plastic kit-bashed characters to stock Finecast resin characters

2) There's no reason that your Successor Chapter Grand Master would look just like Azrael (even if he's armed like him).

I'd say if you have the opportunity to make something your own, and that's really what you want to do, them go for it.

 

Unfortunately I can't see the miniatures pics well right now, but if you are still looking for feedback, I'll try and drop back in this evening. I feel like more eyes on stuff (even my own - although I will acknowledge that I am a stubborn hold out on some things) generally helps improve your quality, although there are always trade offs.

 

Regarding thinning: I have moved to using a mixture of matte acrylic medium (basically colorless matte paint), flow improver and a very few drops of water in a pot that I can renew, and frankly, I'd never go back to only water as a thinner. I feel like I get so much better results with this mixture that I just can't see using only water, it plays with the paint properties so much more. Some people prefer only water, but I just can't any more. I don't like using the mixture with metallics though, I have a separate semi-gloss acrylic medium to use for that.

 

I use the medium mix about 3:1-4:1 with the paint and that seems to work best for me.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Bryan Blaire

[Malcifer]

Regarding thinning: I have moved to using a mixture of matte acrylic medium (basically colorless matte paint), flow improver and a very few drops of water in a pot that I can renew, and frankly, I'd never go back to only water as a thinner. I feel like I get so much better results with this mixture that I just can't see using only water, it plays with the paint properties so much more. Some people prefer only water, but I just can't any more. I don't like using the mixture with metallics though, I have a separate semi-gloss acrylic medium to use for that.

 

What kind / brand of matte acrylic medium do you use?  I have been trying to move in this direction but have not yet found a formulation I really like.

[Bryan Blaire]

I mixed up a concoction that works for me of approximately 6:3:1 Liquitex Matte Medium:Winsor & Newton Flow Improver:Bottled/Filtered Water. To make my semi-gloss, I use 3:3:3:1 Liquitex Matte:Winsor & Newton Gloss:Winsor & Newton Flow Improver:Bottled/Filtered Water.

 

I went ahead and mixed up about 60 mL or so of each, just so I didn't have to keep repeating it all the time. I use the matte on most colors and the semi-gloss on my metallics.

Edited September 2, 2016 by Bryan Blaire

[Major_Gilbear]

 

Regarding thinning: I have moved to using a mixture of matte acrylic medium (basically colorless matte paint), flow improver and a very few drops of water in a pot that I can renew, and frankly, I'd never go back to only water as a thinner. I feel like I get so much better results with this mixture that I just can't see using only water, it plays with the paint properties so much more. Some people prefer only water, but I just can't any more. I don't like using the mixture with metallics though, I have a separate semi-gloss acrylic medium to use for that.

 

What kind / brand of matte acrylic medium do you use?  I have been trying to move in this direction but have not yet found a formulation I really like.

 

As Darkn3ss asked this same thing in the PCA section, I answered him there. Pretty much the same advise as Bryan's post though, and I also gave some recipe/brand suggestions.

 

One difference to note is that you can use water perfectly well, but it's level of ease/success depends on your style of paining, and the paint's properties. It's one reason why I find it so difficult to recommend just one paint brand to people who ask "what's the best paint to buy?" - every brand/range has some paints that are just great for specific purposes/qualities. :)

[Bryan Blaire]

Day late and a dollar short, Dakness, but I promised to review your images and here are some thoughts:

So the struggle with the lines is real, I think tomorrow i'll get out the fine line brush to do better but i imagine i should be better with this basecoat brush.

I struggle with getting straight lines on the edges as well, and personally, I'm determined to spend less time on it.

 

Something that may benefit you would be to go back and try and paint just to the recess of the shoulder plate, without actually getting rid of the grey. Then you can do thin lines of Nuln Oil shade in the interior recess of the shoulder plate (may take 2-3 times going over it) to get full coverage and blend that recess into the black without trying to go over it with paint constantly.

 

- So what does everyone think now?

I think it looks good, but I'm used to seeing Guardians of the Covenant with a metallic grey color, so it's giving me a hard time resolving the concept when I look at your piece. It may cause others to think they are some other Unforgiven Successor, or you are going to spend time talking to people about why you didn't go metallic.

 

- Does it look like i'm on track?

If by "on track" you mean making progress and showing improvement, then yes, it definitely does. Is this pretty much the first time you've painted miniatures?

 

- Any suggestions for the battle between colors?

My personal opinion: worry about it less for the first 10 models or so. It will get better with practice, but there are a lot of other things to get down first. Also, the shade thing I suggested earlier can help blur the line between the two, so it might not be so obvious to the eye.

 

- what do you think about the boot line? [ps guess you can't see it i made the sole of it black, think it will pop out once the base is colored]

I wouldn't personally color the edge of the boot sole differently from the boot itself. It's an unnecessary complication that will yield less interest to the eye once you start weathering and blending your models in with your basing. By that, I mean that if you color the boot sole edge differently, and then decide to paint a ton of mud over the feet up to the knees, or color the lower boot with dust, etc., then you may lose most, if not all, of the effect of changing that color anyway.

 

The other thing to ask yourself is "What am I painting that to signify?"

 

Personally, I do the actual ridged soles, where they are visible (just the stuff on the very bottom of the boot, not the edges that are visible at the top), as a metallic silver/grey and shade it with Nuln Oil. I do this because the bottom of the boots can be magnetically clamped to metal surfaces (such as ship hulls or interior floors) and in my mind, they have to be at least partially metallic to conduct the electricity needed to achieve the magnetic fields necessary to do that. If the ridged soles aren't visible, then I don't worry about painting them, because I need the surface clean to glue.

 

- Would it be weird to just paint the GoC symbol over the DA one?

Very weird, in my opinion. I would either just paint the DA icon in your white and say "This squad has earned battle honors that let them use the Legion symbol in place of the Chapter one" or it's time to learn to gently cut, file and/or sand away pre-molded icons to give you a proper surface to put decals or freehand onto.

 

- Should I paint the inside of the backpack bulbs [the bulb [THIS SPOT] backpack] black or dark gray?

Do you mean the ridged vents at the bottoms of the balls on the power pack?

 

Personally, I've always viewed those as places where they can vent the heat built up by the reactor core in the power pack, and they were also used for some limited space mobility at one point in the lore (the large upper ones at least). I used to just paint the vents themselves metallic and then shade them with black, but lately, I've been trying my hand to be a little more advanced and fake the appearance of venting heat from those areas.

 

This post shows (at the bottom) what I was trying to do. I've since gotten the effect going the right way, where I do a bright silver in the very center, with darker silver to the edges. Then I shade with Cassandora Yellow in the spot over the bright silver center, let it dry, then very carefully shade out from that to the edges with Carroburg Crimson. I also try to do the same for the smaller vents at the bottom of the power pack, but those just usually end up laying over each other to produce a faded orange glow (which still looks kinda neat, IMO).

 

It's extra work though, and doesn't add that much to the mini, so if you are trying to get things done in a more timely fashion than 5-10 models or so a year, I wouldn't suggest jumping into the right away, as those little things can eat up a lot of time. Possibly an idea for you for the future, or you can find a speedy way to add something like that in, if you like it.

 

I think you are doing well over all, and you just need to keep going. Get about 15-20 models under your belt and you'll really know exactly what you want to do with these guys (and you can always go back and redo your early stuff, but I would suggest waiting on that - you can get stuck in a vicious loop of "perfecting" your first models and never get an army done).

[Darkn3ssF4lls]

Thanks all, just got back into town and the chapters new battle brothers were waiting. I will give all your posts a proper read / thank tomorrow after class.

 

http://i.imgur.com/fpZGGct.jpg

Edited September 6, 2016 by Darkn3ssF4lls

[Major_Gilbear]

Good start; that ought to keep you busy! ;)

[Darkn3ssF4lls]

Start of Day 5:

 

I wanted to start by posting this for me just to visualize what your all are talking about with the metal. I think i was shooting for the guy on the left but yall are referring to the guy on the right?

 

http://i.imgur.com/shRt3mrm.jpg?1  http://i.imgur.com/gOn0CCGm.png?1

                                                                                                                                                   Approved by Chaplin Lucifer

 

Good start; that ought to keep you busy!

 

can't start on them till tomorrow or the wife would kill me as i would be opening my birthday gift

 

 

 

@Major:
Why the disdain of resin models ?

 

Not resin in general, just that resin.

 

Lostrael had a recent experience with it here that's actually pretty typical of most users'. Despite making a very good job of it, you only have to look at the pictures to see the amount of repair and filling work that was involved - not to mention how ridiculously delicate the model is.

 

If you want to see for yourself, feel free to buy a "Finecast resin" model and see how you get on!

 

 

Ah, i see well that will be interesting wont it

 

 

I agree with Major_Gilbear regarding batch painting. I'm a very slow painter (I think my Stoneburners blog here is going on 5ish years duration), but seeing a combat squad of five Marines standing there proudly with all their markings, etc., makes for a great feeling, IMO (before you realize that you still have over 140 remaining and need to get your in gear).

 

​haha yea, i dunno i'm probably the person who will get stuck on one model till it looks great

If you would like your Marines darker, there's absolutely no reason not to go darker. I almost always retain three - five Marines (usually push fit ones) to experiment with for paint schemes, to explore exactly what you are considering right now.

 

This is most likely what will happen to the folks from the DV set once i get a solid cadre of actual models lol

As far as the bits-box-assembled Supreme Grand Master/Grand Master:
1) I am primarily a plastic fan and always prefer plastic kit-bashed characters to stock Finecast resin characters
2) There's no reason that your Successor Chapter Grand Master would look just like Azrael (even if he's armed like him).
I'd say if you have the opportunity to make something your own, and that's really what you want to do, them go for it.

 

yea i just have not the kits to bash at this time so its kind of hard to do kit bashing, i know i could just start buying stuff from like bits websites or ebay but that could get mixed results depending on the time the person took to cut the bits off the sprue.

Unfortunately I can't see the miniatures pics well right now, but if you are still looking for feedback, I'll try and drop back in this evening. I feel like more eyes on stuff (even my own - although I will acknowledge that I am a stubborn hold out on some things) generally helps improve your quality, although there are always trade offs.

 

Ok, thanks 

Regarding thinning: I have moved to using a mixture of matte acrylic medium (basically colorless matte paint), flow improver and a very few drops of water in a pot that I can renew, and frankly, I'd never go back to only water as a thinner. I feel like I get so much better results with this mixture that I just can't see using only water, it plays with the paint properties so much more. Some people prefer only water, but I just can't any more. I don't like using the mixture with metallics though, I have a separate semi-gloss acrylic medium to use for that.

I use the medium mix about 3:1-4:1 with the paint and that seems to work best for me.

 

I think that will be my next learning experience will be mixing paints vice using the droppers paints

 

 

 

Day late and a dollar short, Dakness, but I promised to review your images and here are some thoughts:

So the struggle with the lines is real, I think tomorrow i'll get out the fine line brush to do better but i imagine i should be better with this basecoat brush.

I struggle with getting straight lines on the edges as well, and personally, I'm determined to spend less time on it.

Something that may benefit you would be to go back and try and paint just to the recess of the shoulder plate, without actually getting rid of the grey. Then you can do thin lines of Nuln Oil shade in the interior recess of the shoulder plate (may take 2-3 times going over it) to get full coverage and blend that recess into the black without trying to go over it with paint constantly.

 

hmm, ok i hadn't gotten much results using the dark shade from the army painter set i bought will try this on the next few models.
 

- So what does everyone think now?

I think it looks good, but I'm used to seeing Guardians of the Covenant with a metallic grey color, so it's giving me a hard time resolving the concept when I look at your piece. It may cause others to think they are some other Unforgiven Successor, or you are going to spend time talking to people about why you didn't go metallic.

 

I'm going to post up a side by side comparison see what we think, i thought it looked like the guy on the left.
 

- Does it look like i'm on track?

If by "on track" you mean making progress and showing improvement, then yes, it definitely does. Is this pretty much the first time you've painted miniatures?

 

yes, meant by on the 3 fold path of painting haha. 
 

- Any suggestions for the battle between colors?

My personal opinion: worry about it less for the first 10 models or so. It will get better with practice, but there are a lot of other things to get down first. Also, the shade thing I suggested earlier can help blur the line between the two, so it might not be so obvious to the eye.

 

ok, will keep practicing on these little guys.
 

- what do you think about the boot line? [ps guess you can't see it i made the sole of it black, think it will pop out once the base is colored]

I wouldn't personally color the edge of the boot sole differently from the boot itself. It's an unnecessary complication that will yield less interest to the eye once you start weathering and blending your models in with your basing. By that, I mean that if you color the boot sole edge differently, and then decide to paint a ton of mud over the feet up to the knees, or color the lower boot with dust, etc., then you may lose most, if not all, of the effect of changing that color anyway.

 

not sure if i'll do that, my eventual goal is to have the miniatures have say three bases or more one for each type of mat. (Chaos, Winter, Sand, Grass, Tech?)

The other thing to ask yourself is "What am I painting that to signify?"

Personally, I do the actual ridged soles, where they are visible (just the stuff on the very bottom of the boot, not the edges that are visible at the top), as a metallic silver/grey and shade it with Nuln Oil. I do this because the bottom of the boots can be magnetically clamped to metal surfaces (such as ship hulls or interior floors) and in my mind, they have to be at least partially metallic to conduct the electricity needed to achieve the magnetic fields necessary to do that. If the ridged soles aren't visible, then I don't worry about painting them, because I need the surface clean to glue.
 

- Would it be weird to just paint the GoC symbol over the DA one?

Very weird, in my opinion. I would either just paint the DA icon in your white and say "This squad has earned battle honors that let them use the Legion symbol in place of the Chapter one" or it's time to learn to gently cut, file and/or sand away pre-molded icons to give you a proper surface to put decals or freehand onto.

 

That seems like a perfect reason to me , they have fought in enough battles with the DA that they are considered honored brothers or something.
 

- Should I paint the inside of the backpack bulbs [the bulb [THIS SPOT] backpack] black or dark gray?

Do you mean the ridged vents at the bottoms of the balls on the power pack?

 

No, the conduit connecting it to the pack

Personally, I've always viewed those as places where they can vent the heat built up by the reactor core in the power pack, and they were also used for some limited space mobility at one point in the lore (the large upper ones at least). I used to just paint the vents themselves metallic and then shade them with black, but lately, I've been trying my hand to be a little more advanced and fake the appearance of venting heat from those areas.

This post shows (at the bottom) what I was trying to do. I've since gotten the effect going the right way, where I do a bright silver in the very center, with darker silver to the edges. Then I shade with Cassandora Yellow in the spot over the bright silver center, let it dry, then very carefully shade out from that to the edges with Carroburg Crimson. I also try to do the same for the smaller vents at the bottom of the power pack, but those just usually end up laying over each other to produce a faded orange glow (which still looks kinda neat, IMO).

It's extra work though, and doesn't add that much to the mini, so if you are trying to get things done in a more timely fashion than 5-10 models or so a year, I wouldn't suggest jumping into the right away, as those little things can eat up a lot of time. Possibly an idea for you for the future, or you can find a speedy way to add something like that in, if you like it.

I think you are doing well over all, and you just need to keep going. Get about 15-20 models under your belt and you'll really know exactly what you want to do with these guys (and you can always go back and redo your early stuff, but I would suggest waiting on that - you can get stuck in a vicious loop of "perfecting" your first models and never get an army done).

 

 

 

Thanks all I posted inline above, sorry it took so long was a busy week of studying. Time to start painting!

Edited September 8, 2016 by Darkn3ssF4lls

[Darkn3ssF4lls]

This is to dark for what your describing right ? this is just one pass over the black primer. Its about 10 white dabs with 3 black dabs in the mix. 

http://i.imgur.com/YqBTSCJm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/CXpp4FPm.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/uHkY2yqm.jpg

 

LOL did i just make the same gray :/

Edited September 8, 2016 by Darkn3ssF4lls

[Darkn3ssF4lls]

ha, ok so its not the same outside but dang its close :/ doh!

 

http://i.imgur.com/1QxBtSIm.jpg

 

Than of course i go the other way! (2:4 - W:B )

http://i.imgur.com/buo57t3m.jpg

Edited September 8, 2016 by Darkn3ssF4lls

[Darkn3ssF4lls]

Well i bet i should get something to eat :) mid day progress is rough rough, i need better fine motor skills :)

 

http://i.imgur.com/C0oI2Kcm.jpg

[Bryan Blaire]

Darkness, what people are referring to is that the armor color for the Guardians of the Covenant is not "grey", but is gunmetal or dark silver. If you are painting it matte non-metallic grey, people are going to have questions about what you were trying to do.

 

Those color plates in the new Codex don't really give a good impression of what the GotC looked like in the previous Codex where it displayed their color scheme.

 

You can see a painted miniature from the previous Codex on the Lexicanum page for the GotC here.

[Darkn3ssF4lls]

Darkness, what people are referring to is that the armor color for the Guardians of the Covenant is not "grey", but is gunmetal or dark silver. If you are painting it matte non-metallic grey, people are going to have questions about what you were trying to do.

Those color plates in the new Codex don't really give a good impression of what the GotC looked like in the previous Codex where it displayed their color scheme.

You can see a painted miniature from the previous Codex on the Lexicanum page for the GotC here.

Ah I don't know if metallics act the same way, maybe I'll go with gray and repaint when I can actually paint decently :).

 

Thanks, that's quite shiney

[Darkn3ssF4lls]

Scratch that its better to do something right the first time. So i mixed in a bit of a silver color to the base coat i was using, does that give it that shine yall would anticipate seeing?

 

Just made one pass over it on most of it but the shoulder pads

 

http://i.imgur.com/r2rWv8Tm.jpg

 

pass two

 

http://i.imgur.com/5Env4m0m.jpg

Edited September 9, 2016 by Darkn3ssF4lls

[Major_Gilbear]

I think that what Bryan is saying is that painted in a fairly flat grey, and with few visual signifiers (like chapter badge, usual colour scheme, etc), it is not immediately obvious that they are GotC, and people will be asking you what Chapter they are all the time.

 

Some examples here, here, and here of what their scheme "traditionally" looks like.

 

With grey, although perfectly possible, you would generally need to paint it such that it looks reflective (which is a very difficult and time-consuming thing to do!).

[BlackTriton]

Scratch that its better to do something right the first time. So i mixed in a bit of a silver color to the base coat i was using, does that give it that shine yall would anticipate seeing?

 

Just made one pass over it on most of it but the shoulder pads

 

 

 

pass two

 

http://i.imgur.com/5Env4m0m.jpg

I think I actually prefer this "glossy grey" or "flat metal" look to the usual full on metallic color.

But then again, I am not much for metallic paint, even less so as a primary color.

[Darkn3ssF4lls]

Concludes day 5:

 

So still no pacasso, but making progress, will need to clean up alot with the gralver and the black where the new colors are bleeding in. Was getting a bit impatient with the drying here at 22:02 so time for me to stop and pick up tomorrow.

 

- Underbase coated 5 models

- Created a metallic looking version of the base coat [ Per suggestions that the matte finish didn't really fit the usual perspective of the chapter]

- Applied this to one model

- Started to fill in some details

- The "Badge of Honor" or what ever i'll figure out something fancy to explain why a small percentage of the army will have DA symbols haha. Got a little impatient wanting to get to bed, so will have to go over that shoulder again

- Still having fun with the lines of color say on the left where the gralver bleeds over into the black

 - Will attempt to do what was mentioned before about using the wash to blend it in

 

http://i.imgur.com/J7YYKavm.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/HFF1aIAm.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/zYmlsW2m.jpg

[Major_Gilbear]

Well, it's starting to look like a more familiar colour scheme now! :)

[Malcifer]

Liking the dark silver color.

 

So, I only suggest, (take it for what it is worth) that you shave off the DA chapter symbols now.  It will only become harder to take them off the longer you wait.  I just want to jump in and paint my new minis when I get them, but the best results you can get are all about the prep.  The better and more through you are prepping the mini before even priming, the better your end result will be. 

 

If you do want to cut them off it is not very hard.  I do it all the time, for example if I am converting a Blood Angel I have to shave all the blood drops off.  I use a sharp xacto knife and I cut off little pieces until I have the contoured surface I want then I use some 400 to 600 grit sand paper to smooth it out.

 

I can see you improving. Just take it one step at a time, and don't give up.  It is always nice to see the ranks of the Unforgiven grow stronger!

[Darkn3ssF4lls]

Liking the dark silver color.

 

So, I only suggest, (take it for what it is worth) that you shave off the DA chapter symbols now.  It will only become harder to take them off the longer you wait.  I just want to jump in and paint my new minis when I get them, but the best results you can get are all about the prep.  The better and more through you are prepping the mini before even priming, the better your end result will be. 

 

If you do want to cut them off it is not very hard.  I do it all the time, for example if I am converting a Blood Angel I have to shave all the blood drops off.  I use a sharp xacto knife and I cut off little pieces until I have the contoured surface I want then I use some 400 to 600 grit sand paper to smooth it out.

 

I can see you improving. Just take it one step at a time, and don't give up.  It is always nice to see the ranks of the Unforgiven grow stronger!

 

So would you say that it would be worth doing that now? 

 

I have the citidel primer pod i could use 

or 

i could strip them again and shave it off, it would make them be more uniform with the guys from the box

or

i could leave it and just take them out of service when i get enough new guys in and use them as the paint testers

[Malcifer]

 

So would you say that it would be worth doing that now? 

 

I have the citidel primer pod i could use 

or 

i could strip them again and shave it off, it would make them be more uniform with the guys from the box

or

i could leave it and just take them out of service when i get enough new guys in and use them as the paint testers

 

 

If you got'em you should use'em .  You don't have to strip them to shave the symbol off.  What you can do is shave the symbol off of them way they are now (carefully mind you) then paint a light coat of primer over the area that is now exposed then paint over the primer when it is dry.  If you only have spray primer, what you can do is get a disposable dish or Tupperware and spray the primer into into the bottom of it until it puddles.  Then use the little puddle of primer to paint over the exposed area.  Depending on what kind of primer you have you should be careful to either use a brush that you don't care about or ensure that you can clean the primer off the brush.  Many primers used today are water soluble but you just want to make sure.

 

All of this is only a suggestion.  I only bring it up because I had a similar experience to you and I wish I had just done it in the beginning.

[BlackTriton]

I do not keep more than one marine as paint tester, and apart from that one, you will want to replace the symbol sooner or later.

Shaving off the chapter badge on a finished model is the worst idea, but it may be feasible on a primed or even based mini, better to strip first though.

 

on another note, what do you use to strip minis?

[Malcifer]

I have found the best thing to be Purple Power.  You can get it at Walmart in the automotive section.  It strips very well without damaging you minis.  Just plop it in a container of the stuff overnight and the paint sloughs right off with a tooth brush.  Be careful about getting it all over your hands though.  I wear gloves. There is a photo of a marine I stripped using purple power that had two coats of paint and a coat of primer that I applied back in 2003 (Stripped last month) over in the 32mm or 25mm thread.  For ease here is a link.

[Darkn3ssF4lls]

I do not keep more than one marine as paint tester, and apart from that one, you will want to replace the symbol sooner or later.

Shaving off the chapter badge on a finished model is the worst idea, but it may be feasible on a primed or even based mini, better to strip first though.

 

on another note, what do you use to strip minis?

 

I have had luck with rubbing alcohol haha, but i don't know if that was because my guys haven't sat here for ever with paint on them. 

 

I have found the best thing to be Purple Power.  You can get it at Walmart in the automotive section.  It strips very well without damaging you minis.  Just plop it in a container of the stuff overnight and the paint sloughs right off with a tooth brush.  Be careful about getting it all over your hands though.  I wear gloves. There is a photo of a marine I stripped using purple power that had two coats of paint and a coat of primer that I applied back in 2003 (Stripped last month) over in the 32mm or 25mm thread.  For ease here is a link.

 

nice, interestingly i think the DV marines are on the smaller base i just measured it and it wasn't near 32mm. 

[Malcifer]

Oh yeah, the 25mm bases are fine too.  GW is in the process of switching over to 32mm bases for Marines, and there was some discussion as to weather or not to re-base now or just leave them, or as you can see I found some adapters that I have been playing around with.