The aesthetics of Chaos Space Marines

[Subtle Discord]

I so very rarely take part in 'wishlisting' but I can't help but put my preferred image for what a 'basic' Chaos Marine could potentially look like. As per my avatar pic, I've always been very partial to the recent illustrations for the Black Legion. Clearly chaotic, walking the path but not a complete monstrosity... yet. It could be pushed just a bit more without going over-the-top, but also a great foundation that could be pushed to 'completely warped' and still blend with the less 'touched' Marines.

http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j332/SubtleDiscord/Misc%20Thread%20Photos/Black%20Legionnaire.jpg

And to put something in that's more on topic, while not rumor as such; people shouldn't lose hope if this is 'just a supplement' and/or the rules aren't given the attention they deserve. If we do get a good rules update, excellent, but as it has been said, it won't do much for those of use that want to used the main Codex. But, if any rules updates do fall flat and it's more about the new models, I'm fine with that... for now...

I'm a to-the-core Chaos player who desperately wants solid rules to back up the faction that's meant to be 'the great menace', but I can also see it another way; every update to the model line they do before they release the new Chaos Codex is one less that needs to be done to get the line up-to-speed for said Codex release. I also see anything that gets a new model as something that has much better odds to get improved (or at least revamped/revised) rules once the Codex is released. Trust me, I know that a great new model doesn't guarantee new rules that are solid *Subtle glares at the Raptors box*, but this time I'm cautiously much more optimistic with upcoming Chaos releases then I have been in what, ~10 years; we can all agree that GW has been a completely new company over the last 18-24 months, with many surprisingly shrewd decisions being made. Maybe not everything is hitting the mark, but a lot is, and they are showing that they are hopefully waking to the new reality (caused by them losing touch with older concepts, imo) of the current market.

Trust me, I'm impatient to see where they go with my favorite faction, but this time I'm also more willing to wait and hope that it means they're going to take some solid steps to making things right and do the update justice. Note, I'm also jaded and very worried that they're going to it up, but I'm trying hard not to listen to that voice inside my head. At this point it's inevitable, our time is coming... for good or ill.

[Volt]

I so very rarely take part in 'wishlisting' but I can't help but put my preferred image for what a 'basic' Chaos Marine could potentially look like. As per my avatar pic, I've always been very partial to the recent illustrations for the Black Legion. Clearly chaotic, walking the path but not a complete monstrosity... yet. It could be pushed just a bit more without going over-the-top, but also a great foundation that could be pushed to 'completely warped' and still blend with the less 'touched' Marines.

http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j332/SubtleDiscord/Misc%20Thread%20Photos/Black%20Legionnaire.jpg

And to put something in that's more on topic, while not rumor as such; people shouldn't lose hope if this is 'just a supplement' and/or the rules aren't given the attention they deserve. If we do get a good rules update, excellent, but as it has been said, it won't do much for those of use that want to used the main Codex. But, if any rules updates do fall flat and it's more about the new models, I'm fine with that... for now...

I'm a to-the-core Chaos player who desperately wants solid rules to back up the faction that's meant to be 'the great menace', but I can also see it another way; every update to the model line they do before they release the new Chaos Codex is one less that needs to be done to get the line up-to-speed for said Codex release. I also see anything that gets a new model as something that has much better odds to get improved (or at least revamped/revised) rules once the Codex is released. Trust me, I know that a great new model doesn't guarantee new rules that are solid *Subtle glares at the Raptors box*, but this time I'm cautiously much more optimistic with upcoming Chaos releases then I have been in what, ~10 years; we can all agree that GW has been a completely new company over the last 18-24 months, with many surprisingly shrewd decisions being made. Maybe not everything is hitting the mark, but a lot is, and they are showing that they are hopefully waking to the new reality (caused by them losing touch with older concepts, imo) of the current market.

Trust me, I'm impatient to see where they go with my favorite faction, but this time I'm also more willing to wait and hope that it means they're going to take some solid steps to making things right and do the update justice. Note, I'm also jaded and very worried that they're going to it up, but I'm trying hard not to listen to that voice inside my head. At this point it's inevitable, our time is coming... for good or ill.

That's literally just a space marine with horns slapped on. We already have a model line for that, and have had so for the past fifteen years.

[Soldier of Dorn]

 

That's literally just a space marine with horns slapped on. We already have a model line for that, and have had so for the past fifteen years.

 

 

I would disagree, personally. That model looks very different, to my eyes, than what the current models are. It's an aesthetic bridging the current "basic" models and the DV Chosen, similar to the Raptors except a little more simple. If CSM looked like that, I would pick up the army again in a heartbeat, but that's just my opinion.

[Volt]

 

 

That's literally just a space marine with horns slapped on. We already have a model line for that, and have had so for the past fifteen years.

 

 

I would disagree, personally. That model looks very different, to my eyes, than what the current models are. It's an aesthetic bridging the current "basic" models and the DV Chosen, similar to the Raptors except a little more simple. If CSM looked like that, I would pick up the army again in a heartbeat, but that's just my opinion.

 

But the models do look that. The thing is that the artist does all power armor in a particular style, all his space marines look like. The only difference from the LSM is the horns, spikey embossing, and minimal application of spikes. That guy right there in the artist's work is as close as you could get to Chaos Brother Genericus who recently swapped sides and slightly altered the decoration of his armor. It's just these guys, rendered in his artistry.

 

 

(credit to atom smashing painting https://atomsmashing.wordpress.com/tag/painting-2/ )

[Subtle Discord]

 

*snip*

That's literally just a space marine with horns slapped on. We already have a model line for that, and have had so for the past fifteen years.

 

 

 

On a certain level, by that logic, the old Loyalist Space Maine Tacticals and Devastators were perfectly fine and really didn't need to be updated, and the new models aren't really that much better. While the spirit of the older models was retained, I can't help but see how they were noticeably improved by the new process.

 

We'll need to agree to disagree, because I see much more in that Black Legion concept then horns slapped on a marine. The ragged trim, subtle spines and points protruding, some bits of chain, hints of extra detail/engraved work on the armour surfaces. I think the core idea of the current Chaos Marines is solid, but it needs a firm push towards what we saw in the Raptors box, without going too far to leering faces, bio-mechanics, and minor daemon infestation. Save that for the Elites, Aspiring Champions, and other more specialty characters and units who have walked much deeper down the path of Chaos. I'm of the camp that the DV models were for Chosen, who are considerably more 'touched' by Chaos then their lesser brethren.

 

Again, this comes down to personal taste and I don't want to derail this topic on this type of debate any more then it has been already. Trust that I do get where you're coming from, and I want much more then a simple tweak of what we've already got. Ultimately I'm willing to accept whatever GW decides to produce (like I have a choice) and I know even if it's not quite what I'm hoping for, it will be a huge improvement, and there's plenty of other fodder for me to do my own thing if it comes to that.

[Volt]

 

 

*snip*

That's literally just a space marine with horns slapped on. We already have a model line for that, and have had so for the past fifteen years.

 

 

 

On a certain level, by that logic, the old Loyalist Space Maine Tacticals and Devastators were perfectly fine and really didn't need to be updated, and the new models aren't really that much better. While the spirit of the older models was retained, I can't help but see how they were noticeably improved by the new process.

 

We'll need to agree to disagree, because I see much more in that Black Legion concept then horns slapped on a marine. The ragged trim, subtle spines and points protruding, some bits of chain, hints of extra detail/engraved work on the armour surfaces. I think the core idea of the current Chaos Marines is solid, but it needs a firm push towards what we saw in the Raptors box, without going too far to leering faces, bio-mechanics, and minor daemon infestation. Save that for the Elites, Aspiring Champions, and other more specialty characters and units who have walked much deeper down the path of Chaos. I'm of the camp that the DV models were for Choosen, who are considerably more 'touched' by Chaos then their lesser brethren.

 

Again, this comes down to personal taste and I don't want to derail this topic on this type of debate any more then it has been already. Trust that I do get where you're coming from, and I want much more then a simple tweak of what we've already got. Ultimately I'm willing to accept whatever GW decides to produce (like I have a choice) and I know even if it's not quite what I'm hoping for, it will be a huge improvement, and there's plenty of other fodder for me to do my own thing if it comes to that.

 

The old models were perfectly fine for the time, the only thing that needed updating was quality of plastic, more weapons, and more bits. The current kit perfectly represents that, all you need to is bother to take a hobby knife to the model and trim away at the embossing and voila`! You have a horned simple black legionaire with jagged golden decoration. Additionally plainness on a model just doesn't lend itself well to a miniature, the result is that you have a bunch of virtually indistinguishable marines on the board who can only be picked out by holding them up to your eye and analyzing it, or looking at what they've got in their hands.

 

Chaos is vile. Chaos is revolting. Chaos is corruption of everything for the sake of corruption itself, to which nothing is immune, not even Abaddon. The problem with the current models is that they are twisted mockeries of humanity, and they are not decorated in vile and repulsive trophies. Their armor should be twisted by the warp, itself given life as it springs into twisted forms. Reflect that these are no longer the Emperor's angels, but fallen abominations who turned against their very species and are now sustained by genocide. They are not neat and orderly for they are CHAOS.

 

http://i.imgur.com/me4L5mj.jpg

[Doctor Perils]

 

The old models were perfectly fine for the time, the only thing that needed updating was quality of plastic, more weapons, and more bits. The current kit perfectly represents that, all you need to is bother to take a hobby knife to the model and trim away at the embossing and voila`! You have a horned simple black legionaire with jagged golden decoration. Additionally plainness on a model just doesn't lend itself well to a miniature, the result is that you have a bunch of virtually indistinguishable marines on the board who can only be picked out by holding them up to your eye and analyzing it, or looking at what they've got in their hands.

 

Chaos is vile. Chaos is revolting. Chaos is corruption of everything for the sake of corruption itself, to which nothing is immune, not even Abaddon. The problem with the current models is that they are twisted mockeries of humanity, and they are not decorated in vile and repulsive trophies. Their armor should be twisted by the warp, itself given life as it springs into twisted forms. Reflect that these are no longer the Emperor's angels, but fallen abominations who turned against their very species and are now sustained by genocide. They are not neat and orderly for they are CHAOS.

 

But Chaos has always been multi-faceted: why would you want to destroy the vision of those players who have followed Chaos for years, but not followed the exact same vision of it as you? There's space enough in this hobby for both kinds.

[the jeske]

your posting example of cult guys who of course are more mutated then undivided dudes. And everyone already agreed that, yes khorn dudes look can look like the AoS dudes[although I personaly think they are overdone, because of how they are made and that a lot of the "detail" is added not to make models look better, but to avoid flat plastic]. If suddenly all marines were suppose to look like space wolfs or BAs people would go bonkers.

 

And again. IW dudes remove all mutated parts, and AL have smoother armors, "smooth" enough to look like loyalist to loyalists. And this is just legion stuff, not all renegades end up looking like CS.

[Master Sheol]

 

I dont want CSM to all look like mutated possessed freaks... I am a IW player and my marines look confortable in their "Spiky power armour"

Possessed, Cult troops, chosen, look good mutated but basic marines should stay like they are bow cause they still have Too few favour from the boss to start developing mutated armours...

 

IW dont like mutations, they put bionics instead, NL dont follow so strictly Chaos Cults so they are more traitors than chaotic and they dont have Too much mutations, AL works in the real Space so they are not mutated from warp, and the "fresh new? Traitors like the Astral Claws didnt had time to develop srrious mutations...

 

So the sprue we have now redone with the quality of the new kits with added a sprue of chaos mutations like we had in the last is enough for core troops...

Spmething like the new raptors that have a Little more chaotic armour than tacticals... Chosen they can be like in the DV box... I wont buy them cause dir IW chosen better to use vasic marines with a lot of bionics but they could satisfy the mutations lovers...

[Volt]

your posting example of cult guys who of course are more mutated then undivided dudes. And everyone already agreed that, yes khorn dudes look can look like the AoS dudes[although I personaly think they are overdone, because of how they are made and that a lot of the "detail" is added not to make models look better, but to avoid flat plastic]. If suddenly all marines were suppose to look like space wolfs or BAs people would go bonkers.

 

And again. IW dudes remove all mutated parts, and AL have smoother armors, "smooth" enough to look like loyalist to loyalists. And this is just legion stuff, not all renegades end up looking like CS.

Alpha Legion really shouldn't even be represented with Chaos Models, but either kitbashed or taking a blade to LSM models to cut up loyalist iconography given their penchant for infiltration. The only tricky one is the Iron Warriors because of how distanced they are from virtually every other subfaction within Chaos, more-so than the Night Lords who too have heavily corrupted elements. But at the same time having normal troops of "marines but spikes" is not only aesthetically boring if not pointless (it makes the faction just 'marines but with horns 'n spikes and godawful equipment' like it is now), doesn't represent other Legions well such as the Word Bearers, but also really doesn't do any justice to a faction being Chaos itself.

[Lay]

I don't think that one take on Chaos is more valid than another, considering how many different incarnations the model range went through.

 

Fun facts:

- Space Marines were in part inspired by the design of Fantasy's Chaos Warriors. If anything, they're Chaos Warriors without the horns.

- In 2nd edition, CSM factions were made visually distinct by associating them with different armour marks. The sturdy Mark III for the Death Guard, the advanced Mark IV for Thousand Sons and the crude Mark V for the World Eaters.

- The 3rd edition minis were designed with conversions and kitbashes in mind. They were meant to be compatible with loyalist parts.

- The Warpsmith model and the new Khârn model are taking obvious inspiration from the IW conversion kit and the original Khârn model respectively. So it's certainly possible to retain some old design elements.

[MaliGn]

I'd like to see elements from the chaos armour sets in the space marine video game, - not overly mutated, not restricted to specific marks of power armour, yet ornate and elaborately decorated with extra trim and so on.

 

A mutations sprue that also featured some chaos decorated bionics would be a nice touch, suitable in any force, but only using the mechanical bionics across your force would show your iron warrior dedication.

[Olis]

Posts #1 through #12 have been calved from HERE and moved for the discussion to carry on without derailing the original topic.

[Dragonlover]

I want legs with mixed marks. It's something that constantly comes up, the whole scavenged mix, but there's no way I'm carving up a bunch of legs to get it.

 

Dragonlover

[Major_Gilbear]

Personally, I don't want Chaos Marines in Mk7 power armour.

 

Baroque versions of Mks 2-6, designed so that they look warped and evil (but not mutated) is really all that's needed to update their look; this means that they remain "compatible" but distinct from the Imperial stuff.

 

Add in extra "Four Powers" parts in the relevant Cult kits, and release some Imperial-style upgrade packs for the Undivided Legions, and that would go a loooong way to helping Chaos Space Marines look somewhat relevant again. Rules/crunch notwithstanding of course, although I hope more weapon options make it into the Chaos kits this time around.

 

/// Edit: Same thing with Chaos Boltguns and Bolt pistols; I would rather see Baroque versions of older marks. I mean, there's loads of Imperial stuff for players to convert from already, and I don't see the point of "more of the same with spikes on". ///

[Brother Aiwass]

I want legs with mixed marks. It's something that constantly comes up, the whole scavenged mix, but there's no way I'm carving up a bunch of legs to get it.

 

Dragonlover

A way to do that would be doing the models like the termie lord, with different options for lower leg parts.

[the jeske]

How about we get normal looking legs, and if someone wants his models to look like AoS stuff, he can buy AoS stuff or sculpt stuff on the normal dudes. Would stop people from being forced in to buying stuff they do not want to.

Personally, I don't want Chaos Marines in Mk7 power armour.

 

Baroque versions of Mks 2-6, designed so that they look warped and evil (but not mutated) is really all that's needed to update their look; this means that they remain "compatible" but distinct from the Imperial stuff.

/// Edit: Same thing with Chaos Boltguns and Bolt pistols; I would rather see Baroque versions of older marks. I mean, there's loads of Imperial stuff for players to convert from already, and I don't see the point of "more of the same with spikes on". ///

according to the new fluff there is a huge number of renegades runing around, where would those dudes get all those old mk versions of weapons and armor? huron was able to grow a force only smaller then abadons legion [and it is said that his corsairs are almost as big as the BL] in 200+years. The number of renegade chapters/marines has to be over the top big to cover his force alone, and considering he does not rule over all rengegade chapters.

[Major_Gilbear]

according to the new fluff there is a huge number of renegades runing around, where would those dudes get all those old mk versions of weapons and armor? huron was able to grow a force only smaller then abadons legion [and it is said that his corsairs are almost as big as the BL] in 200+years. The number of renegade chapters/marines has to be over the top big to cover his force alone, and considering he does not rule over all rengegade chapters.

 

Right, but there's already loads of mk7 kits. And lots of Imperial Marines do have/use older marks anyway. So if you have the Chaos kits feature mostly older marks, and you mix them with the Imperial kits = Renegades? It also makes the Renegades look somewhat "in between" the older Chaos Marines and the current Imperial Marines, which seems appropriate.

 

It's about having more options, not fewer. :)

[Bloody Legionnaire]

So many good posts in this thread! I'm glad there's a lot of us like-minded on "spikey Marines" not being boring. I even agreed with Jeske on something chaos related for once!

I must say that one thing the DV Marines minis captured was a very intimidating look... (you could group raptors in to that as well) The way they designed the MKIV look very intimidating, aside from all of the mutated parts, If GW can recreate that and include multiple different Mks of armor I'm sure they'd make a lot of people happy. Including bits to make mutated marines would be pretty awesome as well.

[Brother Aiwass]

While I love boring spiky marines, baroque armour in RT style is a thing that I would welcome. Not mutated, but twisted as in artificer engraved decorations in a subtle manner, with power cables protruding (an updated look on what we get in the CSM terminators maybe). The DV style is a bit too much, as there are many fleshy things on. And lots of Mk VI legs :P

[Wayniac]

I'm a little torn honestly, because I feel Chaos shouldn't be all mutants and monsters like a lot of the RT-era models were.  I also feel, however, that they should be something more than an amalgamation between Space Marine and Chaos Warrior, which is the current aesthetic where you have flat power armor with more baroque trim (e.g. arrows pointing in, skulls) and helmets that have the same and/or horns.  

 

Basically I think this look by Evilcraft is what it should be.  It's warped without being mutated, still clearly power armor (and GW could easily make it look like the older helmets), but still looks corrupted compared to a loyalist Space Marine:

 

http://evilcraft.eu/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Evil-Craft-squad-set-s.jpg

 

I'm a big fan of the Nine Legions, I love the fluff of the Heresy, the tragic fall from grace, the "fallen angels banished to the underworld forever" mythos that the Imperium has built up.  So I would like to see what is clearly an older style of armor, more than just exposed cables and such because there is loyalist armor that looks the same, and a lot of the Chaos helmets look like MkVII helmets with spikes added, when they should be more like MkIII-V helmets.  I want to see what is clearly older pattern bolters and weaponry; they can still have some weird looks (I'm not a fan of "put a gargoyle head on the barrel" though like some special weapons have), I want to see Chaos (from a rules point) have access to Heresy-era stuff to show that they are warriors from long ago, twisted and corrupt and looking to destroy what they once vowed to protect.

 

Renegades such as the Corsairs, Crimson Slaughter, etc. I feel are weird because they technically would need an entirely different set of visuals.  Something that's basically battle-damaged armor, with Imperial markings removed (see John Blance's original models that I am certain were the inspiration of the Crimson Slaughter, down to the Lord with daemonic sword and pistol):

 

http://67.media.tumblr.com/cbd95b591f9086203ca7ce22068a4cba/tumblr_mgbiwtWLUX1r1g40zo1_1280.jpg

 

Of course, those can be made by converting loyalist Marines, but I'm speaking hypothetically here in regards to a visual design.  The JB marines look like relative newcomers, oathbreakers who in the heat of battle tore off their insignias, but to the untrained eye would look identical to a loyalist Marine chapter until their true colors are shown; Alpha Legion too could use that look given their whole modus operandi.  But most Chaos need to look warp-touched and corrupt, so it's clear that they are the "fallen angels" of old, less battle-damage and more "twisted mockery".  But they need to IMHO look like they are from 10,000 years ago, they need to use the Forgeworld range as a base so there's a distinct use of old patterns among Chaos.  Terminators, for example, the visual design should clearly be based on Cataphractii armor (maybe Tartaros?  I'm not sure when that was put into use), and avoid armor trim where it's not necessary (e.g. legs), but like on the chestplate would be fine, with studs and spikes and such on the shoulderpads, 

 

The problem is how do you accurately do that?  Again I feel the Raptors have the current best visual aesthetics to Chaos.  Their armor looks like warped and twisted MkIV armor.  Yes, it has the twisted armor trim and the skulls and spikes, but they actually look like corrupted Assault Marines (there's a reason I think why Raptors have had like 3 different model ranges that all looked distinct).  I want that look for my regular marines; corrupted Space Marines, not "Chaos Warriors in Power Armor".  Keep the visuals of the armor trim, hell keep the skulls and spikes but limit them since these aren't barbaric Chaos Warriors from the wastes who live primitive lifestyles.  Everything I've read about Chaos even in 40k has them being more than that, they aren't insane gibbering psychopaths (World Eaters and KDK excluded), they aren't fused to their armor (Thousand Sons and maybe Nurgle guys excluded), they act similarly to Space Marines themselves, but with selfish and often outright evil goals.  They should look closer to that.

 

Just my thoughts.

[Olis]

Does anyone remember the Chaos Marines in the Bloodquest comics? Some of the Khornate stuff there very much reminds me of, as Wayniac puts it, "Chaos Warriors in Power Armor". 

[Wayniac]

Does anyone remember the Chaos Marines in the Bloodquest comics? Some of the Khornate stuff there very much reminds me of, as Wayniac puts it, "Chaos Warriors in Power Armor". 

 

I have to confess:  The irony here is I like to use Chaos Warrior heads on my CSM :p

[Dragonlover]

I'd never considered those John Blanche Marines being the inspiration for the Crimson Slaughter. That'd be pretty cool if true.

 

Dragonlover

[Atia]

To quote myself:

 

IMO:

 

 

Representing a CSM army that looks like "spikey, evil Marines" is quite easy - just use or convert some Horus Heresy models. Actually, that's what my HH Word Bearers are at the end. Evil Marines as core army, with a large bunch of 1st edition styled Gal Vorbak and friends. They even can use daemons as allies (or beeing allies for my daemons army). 

 

When I think about what makes chaos unique, in 40k especially, I see mutated/warped guys with armour that still has some clues to heresy armour for most of the basic stuff. I'm not saying I'm not a fan of evil Marines (just check out my Word Bearers), and there are indeed factions where they fit (Alpha Legion or Iron Warriors aswell as some Night Lords spring to mind). Yet, as I said above, this is something I can quite easily kitbash by myself.

 

The other aspect that makes 40k chaos marines unique for me are the four cult forces - that's something the loyalists don't have, and something that should get build upon. Just imagine modern days Plague Marines - maybe even larger than normal guys, bloated, with design elements from the original plastic guys (so that you can still figure out the original armour patterns etc), and some rogue trader homage bits. It would be soooo awesome. Even more so with daemonic mounts (we need more mounts in 40k!) and terminator units.