The aesthetics of Chaos Space Marines

[Canadian_F_H]

Wow, the evil craft guys look awesome!

[Goreshed]

And the arguments for either side of the coin mirror those exact same arguments about how people think/view/model/paint chaos.

 

Welcome to the Chaos faction. All of these points are valid, it just comes down to personal preference.

 

For GW to try and make a model range that would satisfy all of us...well that will never happen. But what would be nice is a basic marine kit that had a bit of all of that, one that we could mix and match. Hell I'd take something like that with say a chosen upgrade sprue or other unit upgrade spure (also Legion specific upgrade sprue but I think that's pushing it...). The point is that by the very nature of Chaos that GW has created it gives rise to all of these various view points on all aspects of the game that involve Chaos. To try and model all of these options is like trying to quantify the warp, it just wont happen.

 

In the end I'll be happy with some upgraded boxes to fit the current line of GW mini's and if I don't like something about it then I plan on doing what I always do, taking the knife to it and adding greenstuff.

[Dragonlover]

Not gonna lie, I'll settle for leg trim that doesn't smear into the plate with no definition.

 

Dragonlover

[Khornestar]

Not gonna lie, I'll settle for leg trim that doesn't smear into the plate with no definition.

 

Dragonlover

 

Never have I agreed with something more than this. NEVER!

[Xenith]

How about we get normal looking legs, and if someone wants his models to look like AoS stuff, he can buy AoS stuff or sculpt stuff on the normal dudes. Would stop people from being forced in to buying stuff they do not want to.

How about we get ornate, baroque legs, and if someone wants their models to look more like loyalist marines, they can buy loyalist marines or shave the detail off the normal dudes. That would stop people from being forced into buying stuff that they don't want to.

 

;-)

[Wayniac]

How about we allow for the potential for conversions for chaos, without making them "required"? ;)

[Xenith]

The fact is that we can already see the direction chaos will go on the raptors and hellbrute.

 

They are going to be Chaos marines. With the aforementioned being more specialist, I'd imagine we will see an increase in detail on basic marine trim, breaking up of the surface of flat armour panels with spikes, but we will not see mutanty daemon infested bits of armour en masse in the basic csm box.

 

Even look at Khârn, power swollen champion of the blood God, and he isn't too mutated.

 

I do think we will also get some kind of chosen box where all the gribbly stuff will be.

[the jeske]

 

How about we get normal looking legs, and if someone wants his models to look like AoS stuff, he can buy AoS stuff or sculpt stuff on the normal dudes. Would stop people from being forced in to buying stuff they do not want to.

How about we get ornate, baroque legs, and if someone wants their models to look more like loyalist marines, they can buy loyalist marines or shave the detail off the normal dudes. That would stop people from being forced into buying stuff that they don't want to.

 

;-)

 

Ahe so AL/IW players should be punished for picking their army, by being forced to buy two boxs for each squad. Have you tried removing stuff from "ornate" chaos stuff in aos? it requires resculpting of large parts of the models. So people would either have the option to have stupid looking models, buying two boxs for one unit, or sculpting their own stuff. Add to this "focus on cult" stuff and you may as well remove non cult chaos from the game.

 

 

 

Even look at Khârn, power swollen champion of the blood God, and he isn't too mutated.

 

 

how is khorn getting another model helping people that do not play WE/khorn armies? Or is it like those things Atia says, that chaos marine  people should be happy, because chaos got updated models... in AoS?

[MaliGn]

Re: iron warriors, there is a difference between amputating daemonic fleshy mutations and replacing them with bionics and not having embellished armour. That which when painted as a word bearer might be an actual fleshy daemonic presence within the armour, might when painted as an iron warrior merely be an intricately scrimshawed bas relief of a leering face.

 

Remember that the definition of baroque is very decorated and embellished - arguably most imperial kits these days are more baroque than the standard csm kit. Look at how many shoulder pads that were released with the latest deathwatch stuff - it is plausible to achieve similar for chaos, some of which could be much as they are, some spiky, some made of mutant bone, some covered in eyes or hung with skulls and chains and parchment. when you include 40 pads per ten guys there is a lot more scope, especially if there is a move away from a token god aligned pad - instead allowing these to be harvested from dedicated cult kits or upgrade packs.

 

Why must we be so caught up in which armour mark our non codex astartes following heretics are wearing? I'd be happy to see chaos power armour that bore almost no resemblance to any mark previously in production because why would they care?

 

In short I want all of it, plain parts, over done parts, mutated parts, bionic parts, defaced imperial parts, spiky parts, misshapen parts, parts dedicated to one god, or all gods, legion parts, renegade parts, just parts! I can't remember a time when I didn't have a bits box to raid and I have been known to buy full kits from several different ranges just to get some parts to make one 14 point csm, nothing will change my approach so I'm pretty happy with what we have now, and will be just as happy with whatever comes next. It's not even a deal breaker of whatever they come up with is nominally monopose and breaks from the modular form of all space marine kits, because there is very little that a bit of cutting and gluing can't fox.

[Teetengee]

I think that Heretek Astartes (looks like we may be gettting a new name, might as well get used to it? :P) should be modelled as heavily mutated (Raptors, Helbrutes, Daemon Engines, Warpsmith, Chosen, Dark Apostle, Gal Vorbak, Mhara Gal as design inspirations, plus the new Khârn). This is not because I believe that all chaos should be super mutated, but because of the rules implication of the change. One of the biggest issue's chaos space marines have had in the rules department for years is how to make them not marines+1 or marines-1. Logically, they should have access to most of the toys that Loyalists have. However, if chaos marines are just slightly less organized loyalists with access to all the chaos bonuses too for the cost of a few hard to maintain pieces of equipement, that causes a rules design problem.

However, if they push the "warp mutates all, even that which resists it" aspect of chaos in the models, then they will almost certainly also do so in the rules. That means that chaos can become the super mutated horrible monster marines. Maybe they pattern it after the fluff where chaos marines are very powerful and surrounded by hordes of cultists and daemons, so that marines don't even make a large appearance in the troops section (leave formations to fix that for players who don't want squishies). This allows them to make chaos marines very powerful without making the codex as a whole unwieldy. It also largely solves the identity problem from a games design perspective.

Unfortunately, that will hit certain armies (the less mutated) pretty badly. Personally, I think the loyalist dex should also be allowed to be used with a swapped allies matrix to solve that issue for Alpha Legion, IW, and for renegades, or perhaps a renegade and pirates book for less mutated anti-imperial marines. Most of those could use loyalist models without trouble. And if MkIII comes out in plastic, they could probably keep IW happy by releasing a bionics sprue (it might even be able to do double duty with Iron Hands). If they felt like it, they could even branch out into creating several different levels of mutation, either across a single chaos sprue or in multiple kits, considering how well Mk IV did in the form of the recent horus heresy release.

[Wayniac]

^{You know, I agree with that.  I think there's a way to do "mutated" without being "tentacles, weird heads and deformities" though which is I think where it should head.  I mean, the Raptors certainly look mutated, but they don't need to look like Futurama-style sewer mutants/sideshow freaks either.}

[Volt]

 

 

How about we get normal looking legs, and if someone wants his models to look like AoS stuff, he can buy AoS stuff or sculpt stuff on the normal dudes. Would stop people from being forced in to buying stuff they do not want to.

How about we get ornate, baroque legs, and if someone wants their models to look more like loyalist marines, they can buy loyalist marines or shave the detail off the normal dudes. That would stop people from being forced into buying stuff that they don't want to.

 

;-)

 

Ahe so AL/IW players should be punished for picking their army, by being forced to buy two boxs for each squad. Have you tried removing stuff from "ornate" chaos stuff in aos? it requires resculpting of large parts of the models. So people would either have the option to have stupid looking models, buying two boxs for one unit, or sculpting their own stuff. Add to this "focus on cult" stuff and you may as well remove non cult chaos from the game.

 

 

 

Even look at Khârn, power swollen champion of the blood God, and he isn't too mutated.

 

 

how is khorn getting another model helping people that do not play WE/khorn armies? Or is it like those things Atia says, that chaos marine  people should be happy, because chaos got updated models... in AoS?

 

And ultimately the Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors don't represent Chaos at all. Ideally they shouldn't even be in the same book as Chaos Space Marines, instead put into their expanded book of Renegade Space Marines or Chaos Renegades similar to IA13. Hell the current Iron Warrior models made by Forge World are pretty much Chaos tainted, the only thing you need to add is horns. The Alpha Legion is probably best played by just playing a Space Marine army with some Chaos models thrown in for good measure.

 

I also don't know why you're constantly going on about "Age of Sigmar" boogeyman, because baroque, over-designed and garish armor completely predates AOS by the inception of WHF itself.

 

 

http://animeonly.org/albums/DESIM/DarTinka/FANTASY-ART---WarHammer/ian_miller_champion_of_khorne.jpg

 

 

Shame we'll never get models that convey the creepiness of Ian Miller's art.

[Olis]

That spoilered picture doesn't quite look right to me. :lol:

[Volt]

That spoilered picture doesn't quite look right to me.

Excuse me as I go chain-axe something for installing hotlink protection.

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/labibliotecadelviejomundo/images/9/95/Campe%C3%B3n_de_Khorne_por_Ian_Miller_Caos_Bestias.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130922153544&path-prefix=es

[Olis]

That spoilered picture doesn't quite look right to me.

Excuse me as I go chain-axe something for installing hotlink protection.

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/labibliotecadelviejomundo/images/9/95/Campe%C3%B3n_de_Khorne_por_Ian_Miller_Caos_Bestias.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130922153544&path-prefix=es

Here's a bigger version for you. :)

[Lay]

 

And ultimately the Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors don't represent Chaos at all. Ideally they shouldn't even be in the same book as Chaos Space Marines, instead put into their expanded book of Renegade Space Marines or Chaos Renegades similar to IA13.

Huh? They are both proper Undivided Legions with Daemon Princes, Daemon Engines and whatnot among their ranks. Always have been.

[Brother Aiwass]

 

 

 

How about we get normal looking legs, and if someone wants his models to look like AoS stuff, he can buy AoS stuff or sculpt stuff on the normal dudes. Would stop people from being forced in to buying stuff they do not want to.

How about we get ornate, baroque legs, and if someone wants their models to look more like loyalist marines, they can buy loyalist marines or shave the detail off the normal dudes. That would stop people from being forced into buying stuff that they don't want to.

 

;-)

 

Ahe so AL/IW players should be punished for picking their army, by being forced to buy two boxs for each squad. Have you tried removing stuff from "ornate" chaos stuff in aos? it requires resculpting of large parts of the models. So people would either have the option to have stupid looking models, buying two boxs for one unit, or sculpting their own stuff. Add to this "focus on cult" stuff and you may as well remove non cult chaos from the game.

 

 

 

Even look at Khârn, power swollen champion of the blood God, and he isn't too mutated.

 

 

how is khorn getting another model helping people that do not play WE/khorn armies? Or is it like those things Atia says, that chaos marine  people should be happy, because chaos got updated models... in AoS?

 

And ultimately the Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors don't represent Chaos at all. Ideally they shouldn't even be in the same book as Chaos Space Marines, instead put into their expanded book of Renegade Space Marines or Chaos Renegades similar to IA13. Hell the current Iron Warrior models made by Forge World are pretty much Chaos tainted, the only thing you need to add is horns. The Alpha Legion is probably best played by just playing a Space Marine army with some Chaos models thrown in for good measure.

 

I also don't know why you're constantly going on about "Age of Sigmar" boogeyman, because baroque, over-designed and garish armor completely predates AOS by the inception of WHF itself.

 

 

http://animeonly.org/albums/DESIM/DarTinka/FANTASY-ART---WarHammer/ian_miller_champion_of_khorne.jpg

 

 

Shame we'll never get models that convey the creepiness of Ian Miller's art.

 

So IW are not Chaos anymore? tell that to the =][=, or their Daemon Primarch for that matter. It's ok that you want baroque armour, but speaking nonsense you're not doing yourself any favor.

[Khornestar]

 

 

And ultimately the Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors don't represent Chaos at all. Ideally they shouldn't even be in the same book as Chaos Space Marines, instead put into their expanded book of Renegade Space Marines or Chaos Renegades similar to IA13.

Huh? They are both proper Undivided Legions with Daemon Princes, Daemon Engines and whatnot among their ranks. Always have been.

 

 

Yeah, this is pretty blatantly the case if one checks out the current CSM codex. Plenty of daemon/mutation things going on. Multiple page spreads of Dark Vengeance stuff painted in Alpha Legion colors.

 

I know we sometimes feel like we know the universe better than GW does, but it's right there... Nor does any particular player's army have to represent something we've seen before. Can have mutant Iron Warriors or Word Bearers who despise mutations. It's all just a framework to play around with, best not taken too seriously IMO. What's most important is making your army look the way you want it to, without concern for how "right" it is or how closely it adheres to source material. I'm pretty sure whatever new stuff we get, we'll be able to make it work regardless of which side of the "mai kayoss shud look like dis! so shud yourz!" fence we're on.

[MaliGn]

 

 

And ultimately the Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors don't represent Chaos at all. Ideally they shouldn't even be in the same book as Chaos Space Marines, instead put into their expanded book of Renegade Space Marines or Chaos Renegades similar to IA13.

 

Huh? They are both proper Undivided Legions with Daemon Princes, Daemon Engines and whatnot among their ranks. Always have been.

Yeah, this is pretty blatantly the case if one checks out the current CSM codex. Plenty of daemon/mutation things going on. Multiple page spreads of Dark Vengeance stuff painted in Alpha Legion colors.

 

I know we sometimes feel like we know the universe better than GW does, but it's right there... Nor does any particular player's army have to represent something we've seen before. Can have mutant Iron Warriors or Word Bearers who despise mutations. It's all just a framework to play around with, best not taken too seriously IMO. What's most important is making your army look the way you want it to, without concern for how "right" it is or how closely it adheres to source material. I'm pretty sure whatever new stuff we get, we'll be able to make it work regardless of which side of the "mai kayoss shud look like dis! so shud yourz!" fence we're on.

Not to mention every previous version of the codex. The Iron Warriors as we now know them were basically born from Andy Chambers' play testing army when writing the 2ed codex! Try telling him that they "don't represent chaos"! Not to mention that when he built his army there were precious few imperial sculpts let alone chaos ones compared to what we have now, did that hold him back in pretty much defining the direction the entire faction would take for the next fifteen years or more? No, he just got on with it, built some kickass iron warriors and got to it taking skulls in the name of the blood God!

 

Parts for the parts god! Bitz for the bitz throne!

 

P's Venomlust, stop editing your post while I'm trying to quote you, i don't want to end up contradicting you ;-)!

[Khornestar]

Haha I am indeed a chronic editor. :P

[Subtle Discord]

Thanks Olis, for preserving the original rumors thread by removing the aesthetics conversation to here, but leaving my points about production lead times, and the like, in place. While I wanted to present an opinion on the potential look of the new models, what I was really more interested in was expressing my hope that the recent 'new GW' has the potential to actually adjust and change the Chaos faction in meaningful ways that will greatly improve their appeal and how they play. I'm still wary, given their track record, but I can hope based on what appears to be a recent change in company philosophy. They were willing to completely gut the faction with the infamous 'less-is-more' codex, removing at least 90% of the interesting options that Chaos could choose from. Maaaybe they've changed into the company that could finally actually take the daring step to return some (dare I say most) of that variety in the next Codex. I am cautiously optimistic.

Regardless of what direction they take, it's downright silly to suggest that they would be somehow punishing certain players/collectors by choosing one design direction over another. There is no upper company executive or designer making a conscious decision to blatantly favor a certain demographic within Chaos while snubbing another; even if they are (or have been) misguided and make what seems to be strange decisions, their main driving factor is trying (key word) to produce something that will sell while hopefully appealing to the widest audience that they're aiming for. While I'm not happy with many of the choices they've made in the somewhat recent past, I don't think any of it was done out of directed malice towards the faction, but by a company that had its company philosophy in a very strange place. However, I do think there is truth to the idea that they are somewhat struggling on exactly what to do to make Chaos distinctive in both appearance and rules. But, I think recent history has shown a company that is truly changing their overall philosophy, and I hope that it translates to the upcoming Codex, whenever it arrives. Whatever the models bring in terms of looks, it will be the rules of the main Codex that will indicate, at least to me, if GW is really willing to make some reasonably deep and much needed/deserved changes to the core rules. Personally, I don't think we actually need anything truly revolutionary or massive changes in many cases, but many little shifts and alterations combined with a few larger improvements could easily 'right the floundering ship' that is Chaos.

I think it's already clear to see the impact the 'new GW' is having on the quantity and quality of the models they're releasing. I think those that have suggested that we've already got a good idea what to expect based on the newest kits are likely very close to the mark; take the Helbrute (still hate the name), 'Drake, Forge Fiend, Raptors, Warpsmith, Dark Apostle, and maybe a look at what they've done in AoS (love it, or hate it, is not the point) and I think we can start to get a very good idea where it's going. For standard Chaos Marines my bet is on a kit very similar to the Raptors with the lightning and 'vox grill' elements removed; subtle horns/teeth, more organic spiky/pointed trim, some moderate 'warping' of some of the armour surfaces, and a few leering faces, eyes, and toothy mouths that can be painted as metal/hard details formed in the armour or as living/possessed elements depending on the colours you choose. Not quite as embellished as DV Chaos Marines but still a rather large departure from what we have to something very distinctive, while still in keeping with certain modern design elements that will make it obvious that they are eeeevilll *spoken in a Mermaid Man voice* Space Marines. Space Marines of any flavor tend to sell because of how cool they look, after-all, so we don't want to go too far from some of those design elements.

Also remember that suggestions to use the massive selection already available to convert, bash, and 'build your own vision of what you think it should be' idea, is a two way street. I'm perfectly happy to accept that I may need to take what is on offer and take the time shave off details, sculpt/create/build new details I want, and incorporate bits from various kits to create what I see as a middle-ground style that I would prefer. But that's the same for someone who wants a more warp-touched look in their models; go take the plethora of possessed bits, mutations, daemon kits, and other components that abound in the entire product line and mash them into the living nightmare models of your dreams. If you're a serious Chaos builder/collector you've likely chosen the faction at least in part for the creative opportunities. It'll take the same kind of work to convert and bash either of these desired looks, and neither is right or wrong, so both camps should be able to accept if they're the ones who have to do it.

Finally, all the looks aside, as I said before and has been mentioned, I think there's real truth to the idea that GW is struggling to give Chaos a personal identity. Yes they should have access to some (maybe even a lot) of the equipment that the loyalists have, especially if it's establish that the gear is something that has been in service since the time of the Heresy. But, it should be limited in many ways to provide the obvious distinction between the factions. But in turn, this only works if they're willing to give us our own meaningful weapons and gear that is unique in more then just name! For the few examples that are unique, many are just renamed loyalist gear with the odd tiny tweak. Let Chaos have some unique gear; potent soul blaze, living/possessed/warp ammunition, a good selection of interesting daemon weapons, a Chaos equivalent (but different!) to Grav weapons, maybe some bits of Heresy era gear lost to the Imperials but still in service to Chaos, and potentially warp-touched to boot. And here's a wacky idea, let us equip some of these things on more then one model! Being able to mount a Hades Autocannon or Ectoplasma on a Predator or Land Raider just as an example (even if it's not the 'best' option), seems like an obvious choice that baffles me why it's not already in the book. Looks mean very little if they don't dig in and make some serious design choices that make the faction distinctive.

Ok, with that wall-o'-text created, and my writing juices obviously flowing, I'm off to write a bit of correspondence and finish working on my initial Industrial Design thesis proposal. Can you tell that I'm procrastinating on it just a little? Just one final year and I can get on with making this damn hobby my livelihood. But for now, more writing! *sigh* So... much... writing...

[Volt]

 

 

 

 

How about we get normal looking legs, and if someone wants his models to look like AoS stuff, he can buy AoS stuff or sculpt stuff on the normal dudes. Would stop people from being forced in to buying stuff they do not want to.

How about we get ornate, baroque legs, and if someone wants their models to look more like loyalist marines, they can buy loyalist marines or shave the detail off the normal dudes. That would stop people from being forced into buying stuff that they don't want to.

 

;-)

 

Ahe so AL/IW players should be punished for picking their army, by being forced to buy two boxs for each squad. Have you tried removing stuff from "ornate" chaos stuff in aos? it requires resculpting of large parts of the models. So people would either have the option to have stupid looking models, buying two boxs for one unit, or sculpting their own stuff. Add to this "focus on cult" stuff and you may as well remove non cult chaos from the game.

 

 

 

Even look at Khârn, power swollen champion of the blood God, and he isn't too mutated.

 

 

how is khorn getting another model helping people that do not play WE/khorn armies? Or is it like those things Atia says, that chaos marine  people should be happy, because chaos got updated models... in AoS?

 

And ultimately the Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors don't represent Chaos at all. Ideally they shouldn't even be in the same book as Chaos Space Marines, instead put into their expanded book of Renegade Space Marines or Chaos Renegades similar to IA13. Hell the current Iron Warrior models made by Forge World are pretty much Chaos tainted, the only thing you need to add is horns. The Alpha Legion is probably best played by just playing a Space Marine army with some Chaos models thrown in for good measure.

 

I also don't know why you're constantly going on about "Age of Sigmar" boogeyman, because baroque, over-designed and garish armor completely predates AOS by the inception of WHF itself.

 

 

http://animeonly.org/albums/DESIM/DarTinka/FANTASY-ART---WarHammer/ian_miller_champion_of_khorne.jpg

 

 

Shame we'll never get models that convey the creepiness of Ian Miller's art.

 

So IW are not Chaos anymore? tell that to the =][=, or their Daemon Primarch for that matter. It's ok that you want baroque armour, but speaking nonsense you're not doing yourself any favor.

 

Iron Warriors are certainly chaotic, but not nearly to the degree that the Word Bearers, Black Legion, World Eaters, etc are. Iron Warriors' main forces are Chaos Space Marines with little mutation coupled with Iron Warrior janissary regiments and lots of vehicles. Their only true 'Chaos' elements are Daemon Engines and Obliterators, not much else. Daemon Princes are rare as hell and probably as few as ten.

[Subtle Discord]

Oh, to add another bit I had wanted to mention. Given the modular nature, wide variety, and the very creative assembly of many of GW's recent kits, it wouldn't be a stretch to get kits that offer many extra heads, front torso options, shoulder pads (almost guaranteed, at minimum, really), and good selection of other modular bits that can be switched and swapped during the build to have the model swing from less warp-touched to very warped-touched. If they made the 'shin armour' area interchangeable along with the other mentioned bits you could completely transform the look of the base Marine model right from the box. Even the modular nature of some of their recent weapons shows how they could accommodate swap'able (or even just extra) bits to change them from 'common' Renegade/Chaos to completely possessed/infested by the warp. Will they? Obviously I have no idea. But they've shown recently that they can do it, and I guy can hope, can't he?

[Lay]

There's no need to put so much stuff on the basic CSM sprue if they just make a separate Chosen kit that has all the gribbly stuff (and maybe a Havoc kit that's a bit Iron Warrior-ish).

I mean, people already use the Possessed kit to make the current CSM models look more mutated. Loyalist players also do the same with leftover Sternguard or Death Company bits for extra bling.

[Teetengee]

There's no need to put so much stuff on the basic CSM sprue if they just make a separate Chosen kit that has all the gribbly stuff (and maybe a Havoc kit that's a bit Iron Warrior-ish).

I mean, people already use the Possessed kit to make the current CSM models look more mutated. Loyalist players also do the same with leftover Sternguard or Death Company bits for extra bling.

The legs make that a bit tricky though. I like the idea of swappable leg plates.