The aesthetics of Chaos Space Marines

[MaliGn]

I can't see swappable leg plates really working, not and providing decent poses at any rate. Instead we need a variety of legs across the range and that isn't entirely inconceivable. At present we have five CSM legs (although they aren't that different from each other), five possessed legs (some of which are multipart but not easily mixed) four bezerker legs (again with the naff multipart) and five raptor legs.

 

With new plastic kits we could end up with (eventually, not all at once) five CSM legs, five possessed legs, five raptor legs, five bezerker legs, five noise marine legs, five rubric legs, five havoc legs and five Plague marine legs and five chosen legs - which is forty five different sets of legs, all interchangeable, some with more of a hard theme than others and between them offering all the scope we would ever needs, especially if you're prepared to file a bit here, sculpt a bit there and raid the imperial and Heresy kits to really get some variety going.

 

It is ultimately inevitable that all kits will be plastic, it is just a matter of time, if we whinge too much that our individual exact needs aren't met by the first release along this path then we'll only end up with ourselves to blame if the rest doesn't materialise or is delayed or whatever.

 

Vehicles is the real issue, because as nice as Subtle Discord's upgrade kits are, that's a heck of a price bump for a 35 point Rhino! As if it didn't cost a lot of cash for its points to start with!

[Khornestar]

 

if we whinge too much that our individual exact needs aren't met by the first release along this path then we'll only end up with ourselves to blame if the rest doesn't materialise or is delayed or whatever.

 

This is a very good point.

[Subtle Discord]

They made swappable toe caps for the Raptor kit. It's a tiny detail, but it means leg plates isn't really that much of a stretch. Do I really think it'll happen? No, not at all, I just think it's an interesting idea. The point about limitations due to poses seems odd; I'm talking about plates for just the 'basic' 10 Chaos Marine box that's all but inevitable and will be in the design execution of the newest 10-man Marine Tactical box. (not in looks, but variety, assembly, and design choices) The parts would be designed to fit exactly with the set of legs they are intended for and there would be a few choices, maybe not even for both legs. GW has been doing this kind of thing in many of their newer releases lately, along with cramming more-and-more bits-and-pieces onto sprews then ever before, many of them just cosmetic options as much as useful wargear components.

As for the variety, I think you're way off if you're looking to how they designed kits 'back then' (dates may vary) to how they are doing it today. GW is very serious about being considered the producer of the best miniatures on the market so they can continue to demand the prices that they do. Personally, I think they're doing it, and nobody is producing polystyrene plastic (key material) kits that even come close to what GW is doing, and they're proving that they can push it even further, with a release schedule that I would have thought impossible 5 years ago and makes other companies cry, I'm sure. Look closely at all of GW's newest releases and you'll see very little blatant repetition going on, and an increase in what you get; where they used to identically repeat 4-5 leg parts in a box to give you 10, today every kit released gets 10 unique leg parts. Some will be similar, but they are all unique. Even kits that lack as much modularity and options for poses as I would personally like, have been provided 10 unique models each with unique poses. This is a very conscious design choice by GW to provide top quality product and in some cases I'm guessing it's not a huge investment to make the extra designs beside the overall costs of taking a kit from concept to production. It costs the same to mill a mould with 5 sets of repeated legs to make 10 total as it does to do 10 sets of legs that are unique, you just need 10 unique designs ready. I'm all but certain our updated 10-man Chaos Marine box will have 10 reasonably unique models if recent releases are anything to judge by. On top of that, GW might just surprise us with just how interesting the offering will be. I want to believe! But ultimately I'm willing to accept whatever become reality, because what GW has produced lately has me very impressed and combined with everything else on offer in their product line, I can find some way to make something I'll be very happy with.

On a personal note, I'm very serous about investing in a small scale plastic injection setup to try and produce things like my trim kits in higher volumes, at significantly lower cost, and from styrene that can be assembled/attached easier to the base model. It's still not an official solution to a very real issue, but it's something I can try to do.

[Excessus]

Personally I wish they did something similar to the loyalists, in that the regular marine box is fairly "clean" and represent the base models with a distinct chaos look (closer to raptors), and the elite boxes are 110% blinged out with eagles up the wazoo...though our "eagles" would be something much more cool-looking(closer to chosen)... :)

[Subtle Discord]

Praise be to the daemon named procrastination! You know, the mention of Chaos vehicles made me really think about them, and the challenge of making the core Imperial vehicles that are available to Chaos into proper Chaos kits. We would 'need' 4; the Land Raider, Rhino, Predator, and Vindicator. 3 of those use the same base Rhino hull, with an extra sprew or two to make the change. We've been seeing kits from GW lately that start with reasonable modularity, and then damned if they don't expand it further with a sprew change or a FW kit, and another model is born. With the size and scale of some of the kits GW has done in the last while through the entire line, it's obvious they're not nearly as nervous to do big models (just look at what Chaos got last time, 2 sizable daemon engines) so is a revamp of our vehicles really off the table? They could start with the Rhino, and roll out each of the variants as they work up to the Land Raider, and as a cherry some kind of Drop Pod... *cough, sputter...* ... Ok, even I couldn't say all of that and not choke. Again, a guy can dream, can't he?

[Brother Aiwass]

Do you talk about upgrading the upgrade sprue or the whole vehicle? Because if it is the last, it will be (in my eyes) an inconvenience for GW, as they use the same structure mold (the rhino chassis) to do 3 vehicles for 2 factions. New stuff like the new loyalist scum rhino based tanks that I don't remember the name of them (maybe Hunter is one?) may be done because maintain the chassis (more or less) intact, but redoing the whole thing? Unlikely I think. A modular upgrade sprue could be a solution, but surely at a point cost increase for an expensive kit.

[Brother Ambroz]

Personally I wish they did something similar to the loyalists, in that the regular marine box is fairly "clean" and represent the base models with a distinct chaos look (closer to raptors), and the elite boxes are 110% blinged out with eagles up the wazoo...though our "eagles" would be something much more cool-looking(closer to chosen)...

This would be fantastic, please both sides.

[Subtle Discord]

Redoing the Rhino is less likely then them adding the entire Mechanicus faction, or Deathwing with their own sizable flier, or Knights, or Eldar Titans, or the Lord of Skulls, or a Baneblade, or adding the Storm Raven, etc., etc.? A rhino is just 2 sprews, really. Now just look as some of the crazy huge ambitious models they've made for AoS, a line that is still struggling compared to 40k, from what I can tell. When you consider the size and scale of some of the things GW has been releasing lately, a lowly Rhino might not be too far fetched. If they crunch the numbers and think they can sell enough of them... why not? And once the Rhino hull is done then the other 2 models are just 1 sprew each. Done right, I think they'd sell at least well enough to be possible, but my opinion isn't worth much, I know. Heck, it won't even make the current model obsolete, just make Chaos collectors consider upgrading the ones they already have. Nah, GW would never want to put you in that position. ;)

 

Again, do I really think it will happen? No. But with what GW is currently making, and how quickly, it's not nearly as far fetched as it may have once been.

[Midnightmare]

I think at best we may get a vehicle upgrade for something like the Land Raider with Ectoplasma cannons or Hades Autocannons. Remember in the Daemonkin/Ultrasmurf diorama at Warhammer World there is at least one Land Raider with them converted sponsons, so there is president. Not getting hopes up, but who knows.

 

As far as the aesthetic in general is concerned, it is well known I am in the DV/Raptor camp, but that is just one fasset of Chaos and I wouldn't presume to enforce it on the entire faction. The best thing about Chaos is you can do your own thang and still remain fluffy. Anything goes, so to speak.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

It's all fine and dandy to want baroque armour, but at a certain point it becomes too busy. Just look at some of the Blanche artwork. Sure, it looks cool, but imagine painting that. Hell, imagine having to do the job of getting that to work with modern minature fabrication tech.

 

Personally, I think the DV Chosen are about as far as it can go and not get silly.

[gezabutla]

One prospect I'm looking forward to is newly modelled Chaos bolters. It'll be nice to have a bolters that share an aesthetic with the newer Raptor bolt pistols and the bolters the Aspiring Champion/Chosen carry. Well defined belt feeds make all the difference

[Khornestar]

It's all fine and dandy to want baroque armour, but at a certain point it becomes too busy. Just look at some of the Blanche artwork. Sure, it looks cool, but imagine painting that. Hell, imagine having to do the job of getting that to work with modern minature fabrication tech.

 

Personally, I think the DV Chosen are about as far as it can go and not get silly.

 

Yeah, so far I think those Chosen are the craziest things we've seen in terms of mutations incorporated into armor and weaponry and such. I guess Possessed have mutations going on, but the models themselves are pretty simple in terms of details and construction.

[Wayniac]

 

It's all fine and dandy to want baroque armour, but at a certain point it becomes too busy. Just look at some of the Blanche artwork. Sure, it looks cool, but imagine painting that. Hell, imagine having to do the job of getting that to work with modern minature fabrication tech.

 

Personally, I think the DV Chosen are about as far as it can go and not get silly.

 

Yeah, so far I think those Chosen are the craziest things we've seen in terms of mutations incorporated into armor and weaponry and such. I guess Possessed have mutations going on, but the models themselves are pretty simple in terms of details and construction.

 

 

The other problem with intricate barqoue armor is they are annoying as hell to paint, way too many fiddly little details; the Chosen models look cool but oh man trying to paint them gives me fits.  What might help is to have some kind of gently sculpted detail on the flat areas, I can't really explain this but I can provide a picture (please don't Exterminatus for posting a pic of another game's models, it's for reference I swear!) from the Hordes Titan Gladiator:

 

http://pro.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/006-Titan-heads.jpg?56750f

 

The way the shoulders are at the bottom, the plates have this texture actually sculpted on them, which looks really nice when painted because it gives you a very ornate approach (the default look, which IMHO is very good, is gold washed with red ink to have this "red-lacquered gold" metallic red effect).  I think something like that could help with having a "baroque" look to the armor without giving it tons of tiny intricate details.  Imagine that sort of texture but with more skulls (see: Kranon's sword how it has the screaming faces) and then the armor trim, and I think that's pretty baroque without getting too detailed.

 

A lot of the Blanche-style artwork seems to have that sort of textured armor approach, so it might be something that would look good for Chaos.

[Khornestar]

 

On a personal note, I'm very serous about investing in a small scale plastic injection setup to try and produce things like my trim kits in higher volumes, at significantly lower cost, and from styrene that can be assembled/attached easier to the base model. It's still not an official solution to a very real issue, but it's something I can try to do.

 

If there's any realistic chance of you doing that, go for it man!

[Subtle Discord]

 

 

On a personal note, I'm very serous about investing in a small scale plastic injection setup to try and produce things like my trim kits in higher volumes, at significantly lower cost, and from styrene that can be assembled/attached easier to the base model. It's still not an official solution to a very real issue, but it's something I can try to do.

 

If there's any realistic chance of you doing that, go for it man!

 

 

Oh, it's not just realistic, I'm all but certain it's going to happen. While researching something else I came across someone talking about how they wanted to invest in a small plastic injection setup that was at a price-point that's realistic, so I did further preliminary research and was surprised at what I found. They're not exactly cheap, but they're also not exactly outrageously expensive. The kind of unit I would be looking at is about the size of a large drill-press (can easily fit on a workbench) and is hand operated so it won't require some kind of a large hydraulic ram. Since the kinds of things I want to produce with it are 'flat backed' they're perfect for this type of setup.

 

My main initial worry was the mould plates used to create the parts; generally they are milled from a solid block of steel or aluminium to create the cavity for the plastic. While the parts I want to begin with are reasonably short in height and not overly detailed (again, making them very good candidates for this process) and that would make them lower cost, it's still an expensive process to outsource and the milling equipment to do the job myself is also very expensive, naturally. However, I also learned that the moulds can be created using a hollow block that you then fill with a strong epoxy, made by the same company that make my current moulding and casting materials. With this method a master model/component is used, mounted it on a flat plate, and the hollow block is filled with the epoxy to create the mould. This process is very similar to what I already do, and it appears to be very achievable. Moulds like this will not last as long as solid metal, but they should be more then good enough for the reasonably small scale production that I want to attempt to produce.

 

This is still something that I need to do further research on so that I'm positive that it can do what I'm hoping it can do, but my initial findings have me very optimistic. The cost, while not insane, is also not something to be taken lightly, unless it can realistically be used to make a return on the investment. Time will tell, but I have a very good feeling about this, and I'm going to try my best to make it reality.

[Excessus]

We're getting away from differences of estethics in CSM models now and entering the lands of recasting and model manufacturing...

 

 

Take further discussions of that subject to PMs please.

[Subtle Discord]

*Gives and innocent look* But... nowhere was there mention of recasting... and I was talking about making kits to change the look of the stock rhino to something more Chaos because the reality of GW doing it is really slim... *kicks the dirt* Yeah... you're right. Sorry about that, I'm just a little eager and want to share my enthusiasm.

[Teetengee]

We're getting away from differences of estethics in CSM models now and entering the lands of recasting and model manufacturing...

 

 

Take further discussions of that subject to PMs please.

Yeah, Subtle isn't recasting anything, he made those trim kits himself.

 

That being said, it is only really relevant in that it is a potential method for people to stick with old school style if something happens to the current chaos rhino aesthetic.

[MaliGn]

Vehicles could be done without redoing the main sprue, imagine an upgrade sprue that gave a selection of rhino and land raider doors, including top and rear hatches, some new tread sections and some refreshed rams and cupola options.

 

Then do specifically chaos predator sprue for a more elaborate turret and sponson set, preferably including g some wacky new options (ectoplasma, bale flamer etc)

[Wayniac]

Vehicles could be done without redoing the main sprue, imagine an upgrade sprue that gave a selection of rhino and land raider doors, including top and rear hatches, some new tread sections and some refreshed rams and cupola options.

 

Then do specifically chaos predator sprue for a more elaborate turret and sponson set, preferably including g some wacky new options (ectoplasma, bale flamer etc)

 

Ectoplasm or Baleflamer tanks sound neat, like Chaos modified versions to counter the myriad of loyalist versions.

[Brother Aiwass]

Yes, ecto, bale, and hades weapons would be really cool, even more -if you let me go a bit off topic- with the Daemonforge rule, but that's just daydreaming.

 

Back on topic, that's what I would love to see:

 

http://www.role-game.ru/talk/photoplog/images/6995/large/1_nightlordssorcerorandte.jpg

 

Done with love, detail and care, like the new Ahriman mini :)

[Trevak Dal]

I love the Raptor kit, but I really hated painting it.

[Brother Aiwass]

I like some bits of them, but not the legs and LCs

[Midnightmare]

I like the legs; any lightning I have scraped off and I have reposed them slightly for normal CSM/Chosen. I think that's what the new ones will look like tbh.

[Wayniac]

Another thing I feel is that Chaos should not IMHO look "blinged out" by default.  There are too many icons/designs/scraps on a lot of the models, and while I feel this aesthetic can be optional (e.g. for Champions and the like) rank and file guys shouldn't have so much beyond like a star of chaos or equivalent somewhere.

 

I don't know, honestly.  I took a look at some RT-style artwork of the old "Chaos Renegades" and while I find I dislike the mutations, I actually like the armor style with ribbing instead of garish trim.  So I am thinking something close to MkV style armor (in the sense that MkV was made with field repairs), MkIII-IV style helmets, ribbing around the greaves and shoulders but not necessarily ornate trim with arrows which I think gets into the Chaos Warrior look too much.  Of course, I think GW wants to have that Chaos Warriors in Space type of look, hence why Chaos Marines tends to have fur lined cloaks and chainmail bits.  

 

I wonder, is there a good compromise?  I mean, I do not like "Chaos Warriors in Space" as a visual because I feel it looks out of place in most cases (why are they wearing fur cloaks and having scraps of chainmail?), but I do like the barbaric approach to it in a way as showing that they are living in what is essentially Hell.

 

So... I'm just confused I guess because some of the old artwork and pictures I like, and some of it I don't.

 

Realistically though I think the issue is basically every Legion has their own "style", and then you add in Renegades who can look as varied as anyone wants depending on the concept/backstory.  So right away we are in an unrealistic position where in an ideal situation there would be a different look for each legion (e.g. Night Lords might have skull helmets, Alpha Legion would have clean looks that barely look Chaos at all, Word Bearers would look demonic), while Renegades would technically be lumped under one visual style (as I said in an earlier post, more battered/damaged armor with Imperial icons carved/burned/blasted off).  However that's just one aesthetic (mine!) and how I see the Chaos Legions.  As said before when I look at the old artwork, I get this weird "Hey that doesn't look half bad" feeling, although I don't want to go full on weird mutants in power armor or even mutations being the default.  I can't find it right now but there's an old White Dwarf cover from the RT days that has a Chaos Renegade on it, and his armor looks cool (a bit thin though) except that he has a weird tentacle thing for his arm (you've likely seen it before).  I don't mind that armor style, but not the obvious mutation.

 

I think a sort of throwback to the RT days without it being all mutants and monsters everywhere might not be that bad for Chaos.