Stalker pattern bolter versus Mathhammer

[Vel'Cona]

The stalker pattern bolter (sniper bolter or SPB from here on) is getting a ton of attention lately and I’m frankly dubious to its worth.  Therefore, I’ve decided to put it to the test in the only way I know how:  arithmetic!  For our purposes here, we’ll talk about a 5-man Veteran squad with 5 SPBs, and we’ll compare and contrast ammunition types first.  Without further ado:

 

Vs. MEQ/standard MCs (3+ saves)

Dragonfire Bolts:  10 shots @ 30”, 7.84 hits after Mission Tactics (MT), 3.92 wounds (1 AP2), 2 damage

Hellfire Rounds:  10 shots @ 30”, 7.84 hits after MT, 6.51 wounds (1 AP2), 3 damage

Kraken Bolts:  10 shots @ 36”, 7.84 hits after MT, 3.92 wounds (1 AP2), 2 damage

! *Vengeance Rounds:  10 shots @ 24”, 7.84 hits after MT, 3.92 wounds (1 AP2), 4 damage (*and about 50/50 chance to lose a Veteran to Gets Hot!)

 

Vs. TauDar (4+ saves)

Dragonfire Bolts:  10 shots @ 30”, 7.84 hits after MT, 3.92 wounds (1 AP2), 3 dead

Hellfire Rounds:  10 shots @ 30”, 7.84 hits after MT, 6.51 wounds (1 AP2), 4 dead

! Kraken Bolts:  10 shots @ 36”, 7.84 hits after MT, 3.92 wounds (1 AP2), 4 dead (better odds than Hellfire though)

*Vengeance Rounds:  10 shots @ 24”, 7.84 hits after MT, 3.92 wounds (1 AP2), 4 dead (*)

 

Vs. IG/Orks (5+ saves or worse)

Dragonfire Bolts:  10 shots @ 30”, 7.84 hits after MT, 3.92 wounds (1 AP2), 4 dead

! Hellfire Rounds:  10 shots @ 30”, 7.84 hits after MT, 6.51 wounds (1 AP2), 7 dead

Kraken Bolts:  10 shots @ 36”, 7.84 hits after MT, 3.92 wounds (1 AP2), 4 dead

*Vengeance Rounds:  10 shots @ 24”, 7.84 hits after MT, 3.92 wounds (1 AP2), 4 dead (*)

 

TL;DR:  Vengeance Rounds are the best vs. MEQ, unless they have 3+ cover (then switch to Dragonfire).  Kraken are best vs. TauDar (and Tempestus Scions, I guess) unless they have 4+ or better cover (Dragonfire again).  Finally, Hellfire Rounds are best for enemies with 5+ or worse saves, though if they have 5+ or better cover you’ll want Dragonfire (seeing a pattern here?).  In all cases, you’re likely to score a single AP2 Precision Shot every time, which is pretty hot for sniping special weapons and unit characters out, but is kind pointless vs. MCs and factions with multi-wound characters, like Orks.  In the next post, we’ll compare these results to other C: DW ranged options.

[The Unseen]

You won't be getting both ap2 and precision shots on the same bullet very often, precision shots go off to hit rolls of 6, whereas the ap2 goes off to wound rolls of 6. Otherwise, neat write up. Don't have the book yet, but you can use the stalker boltgun with specialist ammo? If so, thats great.

 

Though I think your slightly underselling their use against MC's and such. Anything other than a wraithknight, you have an ammo type they aren't going to like getting shot at with. 3+ armor save in the open MC? Vengeance rounds, wound on 4+. MC with bad armor but relies on cover saves like a daemon prince of nurgle? You've got ignores cover shots that still wound on a 4+. Can even make riptides take saves with hellfire rounds.

[Vash]

Well the purpose of Stalker Pattern Boltgun is again up to the play style intended. 

For pure damage per point, it is not really worth it compared to the standard issue bolter. 

 

The purpose for it, for me at least, is to have a unit (a full unit with them + any character such as librarian/terminator) with SPB. 

Have them in a good firing position and preferably close to an objective. Then camp it out and use the extra 6" to fire 2 shots at enemies within range. 

Now, I am also hoping that the shenanigan with SPB + Boltgun will work, so they can move when needed, using their bolters instead when they do move. 

 

Now the "trick" is, when playing maelstrom missions, is that you will place halv of the objective markers. 

If I field a unit of SPB I will place one of my objective 4-8" away from the front of deployment zone. If the opponent doesn't place one of his in a similar way by misstake, I'll place a second one on the opposite side. 
Now this objective will be place strategically of course. Providing cover for the unit, and preferably some good line of sight. 

 

Since I play maelstrom missions 95% of the time, this works out for me of course. Tournament players and "old missions" style might not be as effective. 

 

Mixing SPB and other weapons is nothing I really believe in. Unless its something in style with heavy bolters. 

[mmimzie]

the real advantage i see to the stalker is that its an extra source of AP2. you did 10 shots that's 1.33 ap 2 shots for25 points?? at 30+ range. When we compare to a frag cannon at 12" away rolling 2+ to wound. Thats 1.11 ap2 admittedly its str 9 and can cause intsa death to toughness 4 negating fnp And a few other rules. The extra range seems worth it, as the frag cannon seems to need a delivery method that will require points. If those points come in the form of ablative wounds that let you get furthuer up the field, a rhino, a drop pod, or the risk of deep strike. While the stalker is trading mobility for reach.

 

also comparing to a cyclone missile launcher the same price point your trading ap2 for mobility and abit more range.

 

The stalkers offer long range AP 2, and also increase the range at which you can be effective with your stalker units. 

 

One other stalker bolt gun issue i have is what do you pair with it??? It feels like the stalker units need another thing, IHB feels weird and out of place, not really being all that big of a benefit for it's cost, and rather pricey for d3 str ap4 overwatch. Frag cannon falls short on range. Cyclone seem to fit the bill, but 65 points seems steep..

[CrimsonReign]

Well the purpose of Stalker Pattern Boltgun is again up to the play style intended. 

For pure damage per point, it is not really worth it compared to the standard issue bolter. 

 

The purpose for it, for me at least, is to have a unit (a full unit with them + any character such as librarian/terminator) with SPB. 

Have them in a good firing position and preferably close to an objective. Then camp it out and use the extra 6" to fire 2 shots at enemies within range. 

Now, I am also hoping that the shenanigan with SPB + Boltgun will work, so they can move when needed, using their bolters instead when they do move. 

 

Now the "trick" is, when playing maelstrom missions, is that you will place halv of the objective markers. 

If I field a unit of SPB I will place one of my objective 4-8" away from the front of deployment zone. If the opponent doesn't place one of his in a similar way by misstake, I'll place a second one on the opposite side. 

Now this objective will be place strategically of course. Providing cover for the unit, and preferably some good line of sight. 

 

Since I play maelstrom missions 95% of the time, this works out for me of course. Tournament players and "old missions" style might not be as effective. 

 

Mixing SPB and other weapons is nothing I really believe in. Unless its something in style with heavy bolters. 

 

I'm not sure that objectives provide any cover (houserules notwithstanding)

[CaptainHelion]

I think Vash meant placing an objecting in a region that would grant a unit cover, like near some barricades or in a forest.

[CrimsonReign]

after re-reading I agree with you there - note to self: coffee before comments 

[shandwen]

SPB make for a decent camping unit. Give out a load of sniper shots while your frags take the heat, and hopefully get some maelstorm points while at it (bonus if you are on a skyfire nexus and there is a fmc... hahaha

[leth]

They are also nice because if you are doing it right they should not be the focus of your opponents fire power. Put them in cover near an objective and yiu can plink away while the rest of your army is in their face all game.

 

I feel like they would be best in a CAD with an OS rhino to give you two OS units. Take two of them as your mandatory and you got a solid backfield presence for the points.

[Vash]

They are also nice because if you are doing it right they should not be the focus of your opponents fire power. Put them in cover near an objective and yiu can plink away while the rest of your army is in their face all game.

 

I feel like they would be best in a CAD with an OS rhino to give you two OS units. Take two of them as your mandatory and you got a solid backfield presence for the points.

Not to sure if they are better in a CAD to be honest. You will lose the re-rolls from the formation. 

And if the enemy comes to your backline objective and not been dealt with, something has gone wrong since you probably have higher priority targets in the army. 

[Vel'Cona]

You won't be getting both ap2 and precision shots on the same bullet very often, precision shots go off to hit rolls of 6, whereas the ap2 goes off to wound rolls of 6. Otherwise, neat write up. Don't have the book yet, but you can use the stalker boltgun with specialist ammo? If so, thats great.

 

Good point.  You'll get about 2 Precision shots per shooting phase, by my Mathhammer.  The odds of one being AP2 are pretty low, though (about 34%).

[Prot]

It's interesting to mathhammer it out, but to be honest I don't think the value of the Stalker Bolter is in the math.... I guess one way to look at it is if I asked you if you would pay 5 extra points on your snipers to give them the Special Ammo rounds and double the output of their stock Sniper Rifles.

 

It's also a bit more about role to me. I have been having problems with deep field units for holding objectives (I mean deep in my deploy zone). The army overall is very aggressive, so this unit is decent for that role.

[mmimzie]

 

They are also nice because if you are doing it right they should not be the focus of your opponents fire power. Put them in cover near an objective and yiu can plink away while the rest of your army is in their face all game.

 

I feel like they would be best in a CAD with an OS rhino to give you two OS units. Take two of them as your mandatory and you got a solid backfield presence for the points.

Not to sure if they are better in a CAD to be honest. You will lose the re-rolls from the formation. 

And if the enemy comes to your backline objective and not been dealt with, something has gone wrong since you probably have higher priority targets in the army. 

 

I'd have to agree, you'd want your frags in the CAD, but the problem here also is if you want any CC weapons your then forced to take the black shields, and the termies/bikes/VV all kinda suck in a stocker team. THough i can see an argument for a terminator with a cyclone. 

 

The fraggers will ahve a pod that you can drop on an objectives, and then the unit can walk off to another objective.

[Vash]

 

 

They are also nice because if you are doing it right they should not be the focus of your opponents fire power. Put them in cover near an objective and yiu can plink away while the rest of your army is in their face all game.

 

I feel like they would be best in a CAD with an OS rhino to give you two OS units. Take two of them as your mandatory and you got a solid backfield presence for the points.

Not to sure if they are better in a CAD to be honest. You will lose the re-rolls from the formation. 

And if the enemy comes to your backline objective and not been dealt with, something has gone wrong since you probably have higher priority targets in the army. 

 

I'd have to agree, you'd want your frags in the CAD, but the problem here also is if you want any CC weapons your then forced to take the black shields, and the termies/bikes/VV all kinda suck in a stocker team. THough i can see an argument for a terminator with a cyclone. 

 

The fraggers will ahve a pod that you can drop on an objectives, and then the unit can walk off to another objective.

 

I have an Aquila Kill Team setup like this:

9 veterans, 1 librarian

Veterans: Starlker pattern boltgun (+ boltgun if allowed in future FAQ/errata)

Librarian: n/a

 

The librarian takes divination school. This to get some off the buffs/debuffs. Re-roll successful armour saves is something I would like to have, but most choices are good there for this backfield unit. Again, of course... it would be cheaper to take an Inquisitor (3 MeltaBombs...), but for those extra points you get 3+ save, and the formation rule. 

[Prot]

I tried that build, but I had to give it up just because my lists were getting incredibly HQ heavy, but I might revisit it one day because the increased effectiveness of the whole thing (Divination + Aquila + Mission Tactics)

[Vash]

I tried that build, but I had to give it up just because my lists were getting incredibly HQ heavy, but I might revisit it one day because the increased effectiveness of the whole thing (Divination + Aquila + Mission Tactics)

I think Deathwatch can become character heavy very easily. But in the right units they increase the effectiveness of the unit. 

I do believe that the choices we have for a Stalker Pattern Boltgun team, a librarian is one of the better choices in a Formation. The other option in my opinion is the terminator with cyclone missile launcher. But then we are pretty much up to the same points as a librarian... 

[Vel'Cona]

Based on the statistics I've been compiling and some of the anecdotes of stalker Veterans posted here, it seems like jamming more points into them isn't optimal in either case.  They seem like a cost-effective "hold ground" type unit with some interesting offense, though their primary interest seems to be camping objectives.

[Prot]

Based on the statistics I've been compiling and some of the anecdotes of stalker Veterans posted here, it seems like jamming more points into them isn't optimal in either case.  They seem like a cost-effective "hold ground" type unit with some interesting offense, though their primary interest seems to be camping objectives.

 

I suppose if that's your preference it would still be a very 'cheap' obligatory unit for the Watch Company (1 vanilla Kill Team is allowed I believe).

 

Considering how chunky and price heavy my armies have been, it might be a good idea for me.

 

Maybe I can still fit in the Watch Master one day! (doubtful!)

[Vash]

Yea that is true. 

Considering the options we have on our deathwatch kill teams, the points tend to run away quickly. 

I personally love the option of the stalker pattern boltgun. The unit can be made cheap, and has a pretty clear role. 

Also, it all depends on the local meta if it works or not. 

 

I have travelled through some countries with my work, carrying my plastic soldiers with me. Turning up in local GW stores and having a game or two. And the local meta at each point has been different. At one place I pretty much was ashamed of my army's strength, and in the next I was crushed like an insect. 

 

I am all in for math hammering stuff. I do it myself a lot, along side with rolling dices to get some funky statistics. 

But in the end, you can't really use math in an easy way to include tactics. 

[Vel'Cona]

 

But in the end, you can't really use math in an easy way to include tactics. 

 

[leth]

The reason I was saying OS for backfield camping is because there are so many fast OS units that can get to your backfield quite easily and steal the objective.

[mmimzie]

 

 

 

But in the end, you can't really use math in an easy way to include tactics.

So many people disregard math hammer. I always think that's the same thing as saying the point cost for units don't matter.

[Vash]

 

 

 

But in the end, you can't really use math in an easy way to include tactics.

So many people disregard math hammer. I always think that's the same thing as saying the point cost for units don't matter.

 

As I said, there is no "easy way" to use math to calculate tactics. 

Its easy to calculate rolling results, but not your enemies tactical movements and your own.

[leth]

 

 

But in the end, you can't really use math in an easy way to include tactics.

So many people disregard math hammer. I always think that's the same thing as saying the point cost for units don't matter.

I think the idea is how do you math hammer heavy versus assault weapons? How do you mThahmmer in an extra 6 inch range. How do you math hammer precision shots taking out the heavy weapons trooper? How do you math hammer in having the optIon to charge when comparing shotguns and bolters.

 

I think math hammer is great in a vacuum, however once you get down to it on the table top it becomes next to useless because it is averages. Now if we were dealing with probability that is a whole different animal.

[CrimsonReign]

math hammer is best used with context and an aim

 

eg.

how many melta guns do i need in this pod to reliably kill a (knight, land raider etc)

 

working out the best ammo to use on stalker bolters is another great example