Perpetuation of the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes

[Brother Tyler]

We've known since the earliest editions of the game that Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes have been destroyed or otherwise lost (e.g., Chapters have fallen to Chaos in the years since the Legions fell during the Horus Heresy), that some Chapters have amalgamated with others to create "new" Chapters (none have been identified by name, but this was explicitly described in the 3rd edition Codex: Space Marines), and Chapters have been replaced through later foundings (the Mentors replaced another older Chapter).

I think it's safe to say that many hobbyists have simply assumed that Chapters are created and then exist until they cease to exist, and that the Chapters we now know as the "First Founding" Chapters are the same ones as were created from the Legions during the Second Founding.

For those of us that have been following The Beast Rises series of stories, however, a whole new possibility has been presented. It's ironic that this is a new concept to most of us because, in retrospect, it makes absolute sense that something like this could have happened over the millennia.

In short, the Imperial Fists Chapter was wiped out - all except for one battle-brother. Now these stories take place a thousand years after the events of the Horus Heresy, so we are presented with a watershed event that was previously unknown, and which forces us to re-examine the Imperial Fists of M41 through a whole new lens.

It's important to understand that this topic isn't about how it has become cliched to inflict this kind of ignominy upon the Imperial Fists - Games Workshop's go-to punching bags anytime the plot requires that Space Marines suffer ignominious defeat. I get that.

The purpose of this topic is to discuss the basic concept.

Getting back to the story, it seems likely that the Imperial Fists Chapter was replaced by the Fists Exemplar Chapter, another Second Founding Successor of the VIIth Legion (previously unknown to hobbyists, but that makes sense with respect to the story being told). Admittedly this outcome is speculative, but there is considerable evidence in the form of Chapter Master names (going back to the novel Space Marine by Ian Watson).

Whether or not it is true in this instance, the possibility itself is intriguing:

One of the most prestigious Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes, one of those named for one of the surviving loyal Legions, is wiped out. What do the High Lords of Terra do? While other "lesser" Chapters might be wiped out, this Chapter is one whose name resounds through history as being part of the salvation of the Imperium. It would be folly to allow such a Chapter to fade into history. It must be saved. But how? Easy, we just have another Chapter take up the mantle.

It's like the Dread Pirate Roberts, but turned up to eleven (mixing my metaphors and pop culture references, there ).

One could easily envision such a fate befalling any of the other "First Founding" Chapters. What if it wasn't the Wolf Brothers that disappeared, but the Space Wolves, and the Wolf Brothers merely assumed the identity of that venerable Chapter? What if the Ultramarines were wiped out during the Oops Crusade and some other scion of Guilliman moved into Ultramar?

An extension of this is the Soul Drinkers, which I bring up because they are mentioned in the Beast Rises series. Most of us are familiar with the Soul Drinkers from the series of novels revolving around Sarpedon. Some of us are even familiar with the older lore about the Soul Drinkers taking place in the Second Siege of Terra, in which the Age of Apostasy was finally ended when the Adepta Sororitas executed the mad Goge Vandire. Other novels about the Soul Drinkers indicated that the Chapter we knew wasn't even of Rogal Dorn's lineage, meaning the Chapter we knew was an impostor. The Beast Rises stories, however, imply that there was a Second Founding Chapter named the Soul Drinkers and that Chapter did indeed descend from Rogal Dorn. So what happened to the old Chapter? When and how did the impostors assume that identity?

My point here isn't to discuss specific instances (though I have no doubt that, discussions going the way they do here at the B&C, we will see tangents covering specific Chapters). My point is to discuss the concept of Chapters assuming the identities of other Chapters. I'm not talking about instances like the Mentors replacing the Star Scorpions. I'm talking about Chapter X assuming the identity of Chapter Y in a way that everyone assumes that Chapter Y is who they have always been and nobody knows what happened to Chapter X.

Personally, I'd never really seriously considered this kind of situation before. It makes sense, though, that this kind of thing could have happened to someone throughout the history of the Imperium, and very likely more than once (not necessarily to the same Chapter, mind you).

Again, there's no need to complain that this is happening to the Imperial Fists (there's already a discussion in the Imperial Fists forum for that). This is just about the basic concept.

[Teetengee]

I think the concept is super cool, and goes to show the lengths the Imperium will go to to project an image of strength. I don't have any examples right now, although perhaps this might be related to what exactly the deal with the Knights of Blood is?

[duz_]

I can't imagine it happens that often

Even in the beast arises the other chapters were extremely resistant to painting another chapters colours over their own for even a victory parade.

 

Perhaps yes to save the name of the founding legions

But how many catastrophic events would have lead to the near annihilation of a whole chapter legion?

Maybe the RG prior to the end of the heresy?

[Volt]

I also can't imagine it has happened often at all. It obviously hasn't been the case for Salamanders, Space Wolves, and Dark Angles- nor for that matter do I see that ever happening to the Iron Hands (albeit for less concrete reasons than the Sallies, Wolves, and Dangels). It seems to just have been a freak accident with the Imperial Fists and Blood Angels.

Of course, all it takes is for some Chapter Master to forget the golden rule of the Chapter Master 4chan videogame.

THOU SHALL NOT SEND THE ENTIRE CHAPTER:
1) On a Crusade
2) To a Space Hulk
3) Into a dormant Necron Tomb

In addendum, never deploy the entire Chapter in one campaign, ever.

[Lay]

In retrospect, this probably happened to the Minotaurs (nothing like the original chapter in M41) and the Emperor's Swords (wiped out twice).

[Legatus]

There isn't really a neeed to completely replace one Chapter with another, though. Just an infusion of a couple of companies would be enough, and then both the destroyed and the donor Chapter can rebuild from there. In the case of the Imperial Fists, there was a surviving member of the Chapter. So an expedient course of action would have been to borrow a few companies from successors while creating new Imperial Fists Marines with the available genetic reserves. After the Scouring, the Imperial Fists retreated for twenty years to rebuild and reshape their Chapter, so they could do the same in case of catastrophic losses.

 

Plus, the Crimson Fists are trying to recover from around 100 Marines right now, and the lore about the Second Founding hints that some of them might ahve been lost over the years, so apparently just infusing a Chapter with Marines from a later founding is not the standard procedure. Perhaps for a First Founding Chapter there is a greater symbolic need for their existence, but not for Second or later founding Chapters.

[Frater Antodeniel]

I think the concept is super cool, and goes to show the lengths the Imperium will go to to project an image of strength. I don't have any examples right now, although perhaps this might be related to what exactly the deal with the Knights of Blood is?

 

WHAT ?????

 

Are the Knights of Blood present in the Beast Rise ? What pieces of informations do you have ? SPEAK !!

 

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Also the Blood Angels fluff states that following the Fabius Bile incident, "The Successor Chapters took this into consideration as well as Lord Commander Dante's original request for the Successors to grant the Blood Angels a small tithe of their Chapter's Initiates in order to replenish the ranks of the Chapter" (From the Wiki).

This indicating that Successors gene-seeds and culture were added to the Blood Angels original chapter.

[Leonaides]

If you are talking about the swallow deus books i dont think it was ever quite defined that it was initiates who had already been implanted or simply compatible recruits who the other chapters had already picked out...

[Leif Bearclaw]

How about no? As long as the plot doesn't require a Chapter to recover numbers quickly, there's no reason why they couldn't recover from even a single survivor, especially with more basic assistance form their successors, things like training cadres and additional materiel supplies. This is why Chapters have gene-seed repositories on Terra/Mars. When  we've seen Chapters disbanded, like the Astral Knights and Tiger Claws, it's been deemed not worth the resources to bring the Chapter back. But to keep a 1st Founding Chapter extant? I can see the High Lords giving them a blank cheque.

 

That said, I really hope that isn't the way they decide to go with TBA. Wiping out the Fists in the first place was a derpy idea, and replacing them with 'totally not the Imperial Fists' would double down on the irritating idiocy. The tendency to brand every Chapter of even slightly unknown origin 'totally descended form the Traitor Legions' is irritating enough, last thing we need is to add 'what if famous Chapter X isn't actually famous Chapter X' to the pile of bad fanon ideas.

[NovemberIX]

Apologies for the philosophical nature of this post, any STEM majors should step back slowly to a safe distance ;)

 

Well this scenario plays out like the Theseus Paradox especially when viewed from the lens of the 41st millennium. No matter the history we're now reading, time and turn over would find old being replaced with new at a steady pace, lets say we start 'counting' post Iron Cage, by the time we get to Lysander's Time, members of the current chapter would be long separated from their predecessors. So it's like an heirloom axe, let's say you receive an Axe from your grand father, as you use it one day you break the handle, you replace the handle, years go by, and one day you break the axe head, once that is replaced the question then becomes, is it still the same Axe? Since we have at least 1 original fist left, is that enough to say that they were a chapter repaired instead of replaced?

 

Now lets add a little bit of Spinoza's Hatchet to this concept. The Imperial Fists prior to their near extirpation were a hatchet in use, in being this hatchet, as long as they were a tool in use they had an 'perfect and invisible' existence (being a tool which can be wielded to do a job).  When the tool breaks though, that 'perfection' is lost and the tool is no longer a tool because it is no longer invisible to us (meaning, we see the broken tool as an object, not as a means to do a job). The function of the tool is the primary importance.

So what does all this palabra mean? Well, that the Imperial Fists are still the Imperial Fists unless you think they're no longer the Imperial Fists but the Fists Exemplar instead.
 

.....Does anyone else feel like they just got Tzeench'd?

[Sete]

It's still Dorn Gene Seed.

[Brother Sefiel]

Greetings

As a big believer in the concept of Orwellian 40k, stuff like this has been my view of much of Imperial history.

There were no Imperial Fists until significantly after the game began - as far as I'm concerned the Crimson Fists were the First Founding chapter and were replaced (who can speculate as to what they had done to deserve such a humiliation?).

Originally Leman Russ was a cynical, cerebral agent of the Adeptus Terra and his chapter was based on Lucan - as far as I'm concerned the original Space Wolves were replaced by the cartoon viking goons we have now (who knows whether they are are still secretly on Lucan, waiting for some event that will trigger their return?).

We all know that the Ultramarines weren't a first founding chapter, don't we?

I will not aggravate fraters with any more of these ideas; I'll only state that such an organisation of the Imperium will delete whole chapters (no pun intended) of its past in order to ensure its future. It has no respect for the truth...

[Legatus]

We all know that the Ultramarines weren't a first founding chapter, don't we?

 

Do we also know that the Space Wolves weren't either?

 

As per the White Dwarf 97, the "Ultra-Marines" were founded in 001.M32, making them a Chapter of the Third Founding. According to the Rogue Trader rulebook page 27, Marine Commander Leman Russ was born in 016.M32, was appointed as Imperial Commander of Lucan in 042.M32 and founded the "Spacewolves" Chapter. So the "Spacewolves" were founded some 40 years after the "Ultra-Marines". Whether that was still part of the 3rd Founding or was then the 4th Founding is not clear.

 

A few years later, when GW shaped the "Horus Heresy" background lore for the setting, they picked both the "Ultramarines" and the "Space Wolves" (now slightly renamed) to be among the original Legions. Instead of the Crimson Fists from the Rogue Trader rulebook they picked the later developed Imperial Fists, presumably because they didn't want to use two dark blue loyal Chapters.

[Xisor]

Like the OP and a couple of others, I find the idea immensely compelling. Whilst there's an unbroken chain being broken and replaced, the Imperial Fists have no greater claim to being 'true Fists' than Black Templars, Exemplars, Crimson Fists etc.

 

In some respects, it's surprising that *all* the First Founding chapters remain loyal. At all.

 

It took two hundred years for half the Legions to turn. And in ten thousand years those nine thousand 'inheritors' of the original nine mantels all behaved themselves impeccably?

 

Well, we know the Iron Hands dabbled very deep in Heresy and schismatism. Do we know if any of the First Founding picked a non-Terran side in the Nova Terra Interregnum?

 

Similarly, it's shocking to a degree that none of the Successors have seriously eclipsed their primogenitors. Arguably the Fists have been - the Black Templars and Crimson Fists had long been seen on the tabletop far more, for me, than the Imperial Fists. They've had more Codices.

 

The Ultramarines came close to oblivion, the Blood Angels have skirted the edge. But it's a series of near misses.

 

Ten thousand years and none have been pretty much obliterated?

 

----

 

Actually, as others have said, so long as one viable Marine lives, it's entirely feasible the Chapter could be repopulated. The only reasons against this, in my esteem, would be factional and political ones.

 

If the High Lords look at the Fists Exemplar and see them possibly causing a lot of damage, or being 'out of control', a way to deal with it would be to promote the problem away - give them the Phalanx, the mantel of the Imperial Fists. Then the story continues, there's factions within, factions beyond, lost imperial Fists showing up and 'fighting to reclaim their legacy' (from within or without...), and so forth.

 

"Well, we're all Imperial Fists now. Best start making new guys."

"About that."

"..."

"Apparently the supply of FE geneseed has suffered a terrible accident. The only stuff we have is the original Imperial Fists supply."

"Well, we'll just use our own..."

*cue mysterious accidents*

 

I have good hope for them making things interesting this way, not... ruining things.

[Legatus]

In some respects, it's surprising that *all* the First Founding chapters remain loyal. At all.

 

Well, not really. In the history of the Imperium there have been about 50 Chapters that have betrayed the Emperor in their entirety, which amounts to a rate of defection of about 5%, over ten thousand years. If there had only been the original nine, and no other Chapters, than such a rate means that one of those nine Chapters had about a 50% chance to turn.

 

If we chalk those 50% up to the Dark Angels and the Fallen, then we can say that the nine original Chapters remaining loyal is perfectly within the statistical expectation.

 

Apart from that, the original nine Chapters would probably be much harder to turn than any random Chapter from a later founding. A later founded Chapter is given a history lesson about some big struggle thousands of years ago, but they don't really have a personal connection to it. However, the original Chapters all have a history with that conflict, defending Terra, keeping the broken Imperium together, being betrayed on Istvaan V. They all have a history of fighting against betrayal, so are much more motivated to remain true to their legacy, rathern than a Chapter founded in M36 that is being told "the Imperium is good, the Emperor made you, but he is gone now, take out word for it, now go fight those bad guys".

[Brother Sefiel]

 

We all know that the Ultramarines weren't a first founding chapter, don't we?

 

Do we also know that the Space Wolves weren't either?

 

According to the Rogue Trader rulebook page 27, Marine Commander Leman Russ was born in 016.M32, was appointed as Imperial Commander of Lucan in 042.M32 and founded the "Spacewolves" Chapter. So the "Spacewolves" were founded some 40 years after the "Ultra-Marines". Whether that was still part of the 3rd Founding or was then the 4th Founding is not clear.

 

Good find, sir!

[Leonaides]

Should also point out that for the blood angels at least each marine knows his genetic heritage back to the heresy and presumably to the first of his own geneline. Source - rafen recognising the apothecary merion in a fever dream as one of the marines who previously bore his geneseed.

[Brother Tyler]

I think there is a distinction between the changing of the lore (e.g., Ultramarines as 3rd edition, Leman Russ, etc.) and the in-universe re-fabrication of history - between retroactive continuity and cover ups.

 

This topic is about the cover ups, not the retcons.

[Race Bannon]

If this type of event happens, then it could be a rare event. A cover up is a collaboration of forces, organizations or persons with a goal. It would seem to me that of all the Chapters that have existed, only a few have the clout, or importance, to have their existence be perpetual for the sake of ... Anything. Clearly, the Imperial Fists fit that paradigm: as one of the original Legions, their demise after the Heresy would be damaging to the Imperium.

 

What concerns me with the idea is the records associated with the event. If there is a cover up, then there is a conspiracy. The older the event, the more likely records no longer exist or have been obfuscated into obscurity.

 

Still, for an entire Chapter to 'become' another Chapter strongly suggests that unofficial records would also have to changed in the cover up: on a Homeworld, the history of the people around the old and new Chapter for instance. Unless there is a complete relocation of the new Chapter, then the local descriptions would exist, from feral to modern, these would know of the Chapter before its new identity.

 

Personally, I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories. In this fictional setting, I am asked to suspend disbelief for a lot. If the history of the Imperial Fists includes this event, then I'd be hard pressed to accept it as relatively normal or happening more than a few times.

[Brother Sefiel]

Hello

I think there is a distinction between the changing of the lore (e.g., Ultramarines as 3rd edition, Leman Russ, etc.) and the in-universe re-fabrication of history - between retroactive continuity and cover ups.

This topic is about the cover ups, not the retcons.

I agree in general, but I'm sure you appreciate that there's a subgroup of 40k players and writers that feel that it's interesting to look at the changes that GW has made as being part of the in-universe rewriting of history. I take it further than many, perhaps, but don't feel that it's implausible for an empire that has an organisation dedicated to making sure that the truth remains hidden to the extent of killing millions, or perhaps billions, of its own people - as has been mentioned in the background numerous times - to have fabricated significant tracts of mythos and history for itself.

I will, perhaps, make another topic for the subject if you prefer.

[Cleon]

There is also the 'Space Hulk' inspired nonsense in the Blood Angels codex of the chapter losing 950 of it's brothers that's a hang over from the original Space Hulk story that pre-dates the current background on Marine recruitment and replacement and simply makes no sense unless extra companies appeared from no-where.

[Volt]

How about no? As long as the plot doesn't require a Chapter to recover numbers quickly, there's no reason why they couldn't recover from even a single survivor, especially with more basic assistance form their successors, things like training cadres and additional materiel supplies. This is why Chapters have gene-seed repositories on Terra/Mars. When  we've seen Chapters disbanded, like the Astral Knights and Tiger Claws, it's been deemed not worth the resources to bring the Chapter back. But to keep a 1st Founding Chapter extant? I can see the High Lords giving them a blank cheque.

 

That said, I really hope that isn't the way they decide to go with TBA. Wiping out the Fists in the first place was a derpy idea, and replacing them with 'totally not the Imperial Fists' would double down on the irritating idiocy. The tendency to brand every Chapter of even slightly unknown origin 'totally descended form the Traitor Legions' is irritating enough, last thing we need is to add 'what if famous Chapter X isn't actually famous Chapter X' to the pile of bad fanon ideas.

Veteran Sergeant even did some number crunching on geneseed replication. Basically the fact that any Chapter can go extinct shows that GW is terrible at math, because they should have so much gene seed that you could make billions of space marines without breaking a sweat.

[Brother Tyler]

Hello

I think there is a distinction between the changing of the lore (e.g., Ultramarines as 3rd edition, Leman Russ, etc.) and the in-universe re-fabrication of history - between retroactive continuity and cover ups.

 

This topic is about the cover ups, not the retcons.

I agree in general, but I'm sure you appreciate that there's a subgroup of 40k players and writers that feel that it's interesting to look at the changes that GW has made as being part of the in-universe rewriting of history. I take it further than many, perhaps, but don't feel that it's implausible for an empire that has an organisation dedicated to making sure that the truth remains hidden to the extent of killing millions, or perhaps billions, of its own people - as has been mentioned in the background numerous times - to have fabricated significant tracts of mythos and history for itself.

 

I will, perhaps, make another topic for the subject if you prefer.

 

Yes, there is a distinct difference. If we look at the body of canon now, including the Horus Heresy series of novels and supplements from Forge World, then it is clear that the Ultramarines were part of the First Founding. The same goes for other examples.

 

Retcons are valid discussion fodder, and we've had numerous such discussions here over the years. But they're not what this topic is about. Feel free to start another topic on the subject, or perhaps find the other topics we've had on them over the years (you'll find that pretty much all of the major retcons have been brought up multiple times over the years).

[Arkangilos]

There is also the 'Space Hulk' inspired nonsense in the Blood Angels codex of the chapter losing 950 of it's brothers that's a hang over from the original Space Hulk story that pre-dates the current background on Marine recruitment and replacement and simply makes no sense unless extra companies appeared from no-where.

To be fair, it only takes Blood Angels a year to complete the implantation and transformation, where as it takes standard codex chapters about a decade for the same process.

[Teetengee]

 

I think the concept is super cool, and goes to show the lengths the Imperium will go to to project an image of strength. I don't have any examples right now, although perhaps this might be related to what exactly the deal with the Knights of Blood is?

 

WHAT ?????

 

Are the Knights of Blood present in the Beast Rise ? What pieces of informations do you have ? SPEAK !!

 

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-snip-

 

I was referring to the fact that they are claimed to be both loyalist blood angel successors and chaos renegades, but not the same thing, necessarily.