Perpetuation of the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes

[Trevak Dal]

I can't imagine it happens that often

Even in the beast arises the other chapters were extremely resistant to painting another chapters colours over their own for even a victory parade.

 

Perhaps yes to save the name of the founding legions

But how many catastrophic events would have lead to the near annihilation of a whole chapter legion?

Maybe the RG prior to the end of the heresy?

Well in that case wouldn't they be okay with it since they would be using their original colors?

[Volt]

 

There is also the 'Space Hulk' inspired nonsense in the Blood Angels codex of the chapter losing 950 of it's brothers that's a hang over from the original Space Hulk story that pre-dates the current background on Marine recruitment and replacement and simply makes no sense unless extra companies appeared from no-where.

To be fair, it only takes Blood Angels a year to complete the implantation and transformation, where as it takes standard codex chapters about a decade for the same process.

 

Not necessarily. Damnation Crusade really killed the idea of neophytes being exclusively children upon the Chapter taking them, or space marines taking forever to make. Raclaw seems to (in true Sigismund manner) get shoved through the process of augmentation and told good luck.

[Conn Eremon]

This is actually something I had considered might be part of the 'unseen' lore for years now, but I never really discussed it because of how strong the team mentality can be in this hobby.

 

The idea is very 40k, and it intrigues me. It also kind of feels like a stretch though, as many others have voiced.

 

Why wouldn't the Chapter rebuild around the survivor? Well, for one, Space Marines hardly seem the type to avoid combat for protracted periods of time, whatever the consequences, and two, the survivor may not be capable regardless of his resources.

 

Yet, overcoming these obstacles would seem vastly more preferred than being replaced. Someone used an axe analogy, about whether the axe remains the same after replacing parts. You're given an axe made by your grandfather, but the handle breaks. You give the tool back, your grandfather repairs it and returns it exactly to its previous condition. New handle, but it's still an axe your grandfather gave you. The meaning it had remains. Rebuilding the Imperial Fists would be slow and under risk of complete collapse, but its recruits would still be Imperial Fists. Not just sons of Dorn, but indoctrinated into the Imperial Fists Chapter from the very beginning.

 

Alternatively, you let a friend borrow your axe, because his axe's head is chipped. When he returns it, he apologizes for breaking the handle, but don't worry, he's already replaced the handle. Trust him, you'll like the way this handle feels a lot better anyway, and he knows because it's his axe's handle that he replaced it with. Now, if you're sentimental, the axe's meaning has diminished and changed. If the Fists Exemplar are used in this manner, the Imperial Fists will forever be different. The Fists Exemplar replacing their Chapter identity with the Imperial Fists could never be perfect. What makes this Chapter what it was will linger on inside the Imperial Fists no matter how compatible the two are. These are Marines with experiences and ibdoctrinations that did not originate from the Imperial Fists but will now shap it. From then on, the Imperial Fists would always be just a little bit Fists Exemplar. And going hand in hand with that is that the Fists Exemplars themselves will no longer exist as their own thing. Either way, the Imperium loses a Chapter.

 

Why choose the latter route, if the former is remains a possibility, as long as the choice remains theirs?

[Phoebus]

Veteran Sergeant even did some number crunching on geneseed replication. Basically the fact that any Chapter can go extinct shows that GW is terrible at math, because they should have so much gene seed that you could make billions of space marines without breaking a sweat.

Let me offer two points:

 

1. Gene-seed is one thing, but to create a Chapter (or to restore one left almost destroyed) you also need to pony up a fleet, a significant amount of infrastructure, gunships, vehicles, equipment, etc. That's decades of industry, right there.

 

2. Depending on the situation, it may be of greater worth to the High Lords of Terra to have two undermanned Chapters (the one almost destroyed, partially replenished by one of its Successors, and the Successor itself) than just one full-strength Chapter. Also consider that there may be no meaningful difference between Imperial Fist and Fist Exemplar gene-seed.

[Boudan]

I think the idea Brother Tyler is pointing out is quite interesting!

 

This is actually something I had considered might be part of the 'unseen' lore for years now, but I never really discussed it because of how strong the team mentality can be in this hobby.

The idea is very 40k, and it intrigues me. It also kind of feels like a stretch though, as many others have voiced.

 

I couldn't agree more that the notion is "very 40K."  I was reading some discussion about the upcoming Angel's Blade supplement in the Blood Angels subforum, and one frater posted an observation that Dante ordered the entire host of the Blood Angels into the path of the 13th Black Crusade - the BA's destruction a near-certainty.  My internal reaction was: "Well that's an interesting decision for a 1st Founding chapter master - I guess they'll succeed because they're famous."

 

I also think the notion of regrowing a chapter from one surviving Astartes is more consistent with the portrayal of the Imperium than has been given credit.   Couldn't one argue that dissolving or merging chapters who had suffered heavy losses have unintended effects on morale? The fluff consistently suggests that self-preservation is still a lingering human trait of the Astartes.  Pride and feelings of loyalty and betrayal are still very present.

 

I'll also admit that regrowing a chapter from a handful of survivors is exactly my headcanon for the Lamenters chapter after the conclusion of their penance crusade.

[Xisor]

Effects on morale, sure, but there's vanity, self-interest and factionalism at stake too. The Chapter could be resurrected, but if it's in the back end of Beyond, with every human world nearby forgotten, exterminated, lost or worse - why bother? Why not divert that effort to a burgeoning section ofthe Imperium where no Astartes support exists? What about somewhere you have reason to believe is at risk? What if you subscribe to a rival theory of effective galactic management orthodoxy?

 

What if you want a pet chapter that knows its place, or simply one that doesn't have a long, proud history of contraryism and abject failure?

 

(Edit: That last is a point in itself. You might believe a Chapter's history is important, but I don't doubt for a second that Space Marines are super-human in their unscrupulousness about... cleansing and censoring their own history. How much of a chapter's history is of good quality? How much has been sanitised of all but the most pertinent, important facts? "Learn from your mistakes. Make sure the lesson is never forgotten." No need to remember the *need* for the lesson, certainly not it's factual basis if it might lesson the impact of the lesson.)

 

What if you think they're cursed?

[Frater Antodeniel]

 

 

I think the concept is super cool, and goes to show the lengths the Imperium will go to to project an image of strength. I don't have any examples right now, although perhaps this might be related to what exactly the deal with the Knights of Blood is?

 

WHAT ?????

 

Are the Knights of Blood present in the Beast Rise ? What pieces of informations do you have ? SPEAK !!

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

-snip-

 

I was referring to the fact that they are claimed to be both loyalist blood angel successors and chaos renegades, but not the same thing, necessarily.

 

 

Ha !^^ About this, GW already provide me with some possibilities.....

 

Facts :

 

- Currently there is 2 Knights of Blood Chapters, a Blood Angels successors and another one. Both have the same heraldy, but originally different names. (Knights of Blood, Blood Angels successors VS Blood Knights, successors ?)

 

- Knights of Blood (Blood Angels successors) have been declared renegade in M40-41, but are still loyalist.

 

- There is a Knights of Blood Chaos Warband (Khorne Themed) that is adept of world genocide.

 

My Theory :

 

The Blood Knights chapter went Traitors sometimes between M32-M39 and choose to dedicated themselves to Khorne, renaming themselves, Knights of Blood. The High Lords of Terra & Adeptus Terra choosed to create a new chapter, named Knights of Blood from the very loyal, yet difficult, Blood Angels gene-stock. Since their creation, the Loyal/Renegade Knights of Blood wage war against those Traitors Knights of Blood who share the same name.

 

Ultimately due to their own excess of zeal, as well as the confusion of name, the Loyalist Knights of Blood were declared Renegades in M40-41.

[Volt]

 

Veteran Sergeant even did some number crunching on geneseed replication. Basically the fact that any Chapter can go extinct shows that GW is terrible at math, because they should have so much gene seed that you could make billions of space marines without breaking a sweat.

Let me offer two points:

 

1. Gene-seed is one thing, but to create a Chapter (or to restore one left almost destroyed) you also need to pony up a fleet, a significant amount of infrastructure, gunships, vehicles, equipment, etc. That's decades of industry, right there.

 

2. Depending on the situation, it may be of greater worth to the High Lords of Terra to have two undermanned Chapters (the one almost destroyed, partially replenished by one of its Successors, and the Successor itself) than just one full-strength Chapter. Also consider that there may be no meaningful difference between Imperial Fist and Fist Exemplar gene-seed.

 

Infrastructure isn't a problem. The Imperium already builds battle stations larger than the Death Star, even artificial planets. The logistics to construct an Astartes fleet (starting at something like 4 Battle Barges and 10 Strike Cruisers) is child's play in comparison.

[Jareddm]

I have a big problem with the whole "regrow from one marine" thing and that's geneseed rejection. Assuming you're not getting access to the tithe on Terra, and given the bureaucracy involved, you probably won't, you've got one shot at this. One. Screw up and the chapter's dead.

How many chapter serfs does a chapter have? How many dead recruits does a chapter have who don't even make it to the biscopea, let alone the black carapace?. Hundreds? And these are the ones who made it past the initial compatibility screening!

Or forget about the recruit. Even just the growth phase just to get the implants from the extracted geneseed zygotes. Oops, the AdMech attendant failed to successfully culture the secondary heart or osmodula from the geneseed. Chapter's dead. There's too many things to risk with this approach. Too many ways for the chapter to die in such an ignoble manner that I doubt many chapters would stand for it.

It's why I see both the replacement of a chapter and the use of another, closely related but NOT identical, chapter's geneseed are more plausible than people might think. Both the chapter survivors and the powers that be may not want to risk the alternative.

[Conn Eremon]

I have a big problem with the whole "regrow from one marine" thing and that's geneseed rejection.

I get what you are saying, and that is a very valid concern when the only gene-seed you have available is what resides within the lone survivor.

 

Which very much can happen, but doesn't universally apply given the Imperial Fist example. There is only a single survivor, but nothing has happened to their genetic storage. There should be plenty of genetic material even with the risk of rejection, whether in recruits or outside assistance.

[Bronze Beast in the Dark]

It would go a long way in explaining how a chapter such as the Carmine Blades could go on believing that they are a UM successor and eventually learning that they are indeed from the Blood Angels.

 

Perhaps they began as a UM successor and through a bureaucratic blunder were rebuilt with something else.

[Machine God]

Apologies for the philosophical nature of this post, any STEM majors should step back slowly to a safe distance

Well this scenario plays out like the Theseus Paradox especially when viewed from the lens of the 41st millennium. No matter the history we're now reading, time and turn over would find old being replaced with new at a steady pace, lets say we start 'counting' post Iron Cage, by the time we get to Lysander's Time, members of the current chapter would be long separated from their predecessors. So it's like an heirloom axe, let's say you receive an Axe from your grand father, as you use it one day you break the handle, you replace the handle, years go by, and one day you break the axe head, once that is replaced the question then becomes, is it still the same Axe? Since we have at least 1 original fist left, is that enough to say that they were a chapter repaired instead of replaced?

@NovemberIX - Nice one, Trigger's Broom.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUl6PooveJE

[Sete]

 

I have a big problem with the whole "regrow from one marine" thing and that's geneseed rejection.

I get what you are saying, and that is a very valid concern when the only gene-seed you have available is what resides within the lone survivor.

 

Which very much can happen, but doesn't universally apply given the Imperial Fist example. There is only a single survivor, but nothing has happened to their genetic storage. There should be plenty of genetic material even with the risk of rejection, whether in recruits or outside assistance.

Big spoiler from the series don't open it if you don't want to get the ending spoiled

 

They are all dead. The beast killed the last one. Imperial Fists are gone.

 

[Phoebus]

 

 

Veteran Sergeant even did some number crunching on geneseed replication. Basically the fact that any Chapter can go extinct shows that GW is terrible at math, because they should have so much gene seed that you could make billions of space marines without breaking a sweat.

Let me offer two points:

 

1. Gene-seed is one thing, but to create a Chapter (or to restore one left almost destroyed) you also need to pony up a fleet, a significant amount of infrastructure, gunships, vehicles, equipment, etc. That's decades of industry, right there.

 

2. Depending on the situation, it may be of greater worth to the High Lords of Terra to have two undermanned Chapters (the one almost destroyed, partially replenished by one of its Successors, and the Successor itself) than just one full-strength Chapter. Also consider that there may be no meaningful difference between Imperial Fist and Fist Exemplar gene-seed.

 

Infrastructure isn't a problem. The Imperium already builds battle stations larger than the Death Star, even artificial planets. The logistics to construct an Astartes fleet (starting at something like 4 Battle Barges and 10 Strike Cruisers) is child's play in comparison.

 

On its own, sure, but one can't assume that infrastructure is either immediately available or even that responsive.

 

Put it this way: I sincerely doubt there's a single shipyard waiting around for the call to start producing a battle barge. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure a Founding is a top priority for any Imperial agency, but I think there's a reason why Chapters tend to be created en-masse... and, following up on that, I think there's a reason this has only happened twenty-five times since the First Founding. Why? Because, unless we're talking about Mars or a Forge World within direct Astropathic contact of Terra (see the big rulebook's handy lore section on dating, etc.), just getting the yards where the ships would be constructed to acknowledge the order to start cranking out a fleet could be a challenge.

 

Just thoughts!

[Wayniac]

Don't they reuse names too?  Like wasn't there 2-3 chapters that had the same names?  I do think it's an interesting concept though that they would go to lengths to reform the Imperial Fists, and then of course put out propaganda so that they were never really wiped out, but I also like the idea that just because you make a particular chapter, it might not have been the first one to have that name which adds a bit of typical corporate laziness to it e.g. "Hmm we need a name for this chapter... well we have all those Vorpal Swords iconography for that chapter that was wiped out 50 years ago, can't let it go to waste.. hey new chapter you are now the Vorpal Swords"

[Brother Tyler]

So getting back on topic, the general consensus seems to be that the perpetuation of a Chapter en toto via a cover up would be a very rare thing, likely only conducted as an extreme resort when it is felt that it needs to be done for the good of the Imperium.

 

One point has been made - that a Chapter could be re-built with a very small number of surviving battle-brothers (I think the bottom number someone claimed would work would be 1, though some might argue that the simple use of gene-seed stores without a surviving battle-brother might be sufficient). If this were the real world, I could see the logic in that argument. However, this is not the real world. This is GW's grimdark future and they get to set the ground rules, no matter how unrealistic we might think they are. Under the canon lore, very few Chapters reduced to less than a company in size (nominally 100 Space Marines - no need to quibble over the exact number) have recovered from those losses. Sure, we can cite a few from lore (the Blood Angels come to mind, and naturally the Crimson Fists for whom that bit of lore was presented). So the rules of the game universe as established by GW render those arguments invalid. We might assume that it is possible for a Chapter reduced below a company in size to recover, but the lore makes it clear that it would be an exception.

 

As for the criteria for which the cover up sanction might be enacted, we've identified the prestige of the Chapter as paramount, especially one known for its part in the history of the Imperium. The so-called "First Founding" Chapters are the most likely candidates for this, but there might be others. Perhaps some of the other Second Founding Chapters might also fall into this category. There might be other criteria having nothing to do with a Chapter's longevity, perhaps dealing with their strategic importance in the circumstances (and this is obviously situation-dependent, and probably also varies with the galactic geography and the nature of the threat).

 

One might wonder if the possibility of the Fists Exemplar "becoming" the Imperial Fists is an example of the amalgamation that GW identified way back in 3rd edition, or if this is something else. I always thought an amalgamation would be one or more depleted Chapters merging. The result would be a "new" Chapter, perhaps using different livery and symbols from those used by the "parent" Chapters, or perhaps merging them together to form a hybrid (for example, keeping the colors of one, the badge of the second, and mixing their names to create a new one). The circumstances in which this might happen would probably be rare because gene-seed compatibility would be an issue; so another form of amalgamation would be a depleted Chapter merging with a compatible healthy Chapter (perhaps the latter Chapter is under-strength for some reason). The depleted Chapter would basically cease to exist, sending its surviving battle-brothers into the healthier Chapter. This latter form of amalgamation might be applicable in the Imperial Fists/Fists Exemplar case, though it would be a reverse form where the healthy Chapter amalgamates with the depleted Chapter.

 

Ultimately, the concept seems logical in only a handful of instances (the most likely in my mind having to do only with propaganda and nothing to do with a real necessity). It is, however, a very grimdark concept that fits perfectly with the highly unreasonable Imperium of Man.

[Sete]

It would explain the current vanilla IF.

I am certain that the Fists Exemplar, with their focus on the codex Astarte's will be the new Imperial Fists.

[Volt]

It would explain the current vanilla IF.

I am certain that the Fists Exemplar, with their focus on the codex Astarte's will be the new Imperial Fists.

Pretty certain as well. Would explain how fists suddenly went from "We'll reduce our numbers, but take your codex and shove it" to "We love the codex so much we try to out-Ultramarine the Ultramarines".

 

Of course there's also that comedic Chapter of Dorn's trolls, the Hammers of Dorn, that speed dial the Ultramarines and inform them every time they broke their own Codex's rules.

[Captain Idaho]

There's a distinct possibility that Chapters from the same parent Legion consider themselves heirs to the original Legion, particularly the oldest founding Chapters.

 

Likewise; there could very well be little or no difference in genetic make up for such Chapters from the same founding.

 

In universe we even have Nightlords referring to Ultramarines successors as just the Ultramarines.

[Arkangilos]

Yeah, I mean if they were second founding, they were literally Imperial Fists already. Not to mention, Imperial Fists didn't just recruit from one world, so it's not like there was much of a world culture lost. It's also possible that their dreadnoughts survived so the traditions could be retold and retaught, and the dreadnoughts from the other chapter that were held over from the legion days as well. 

 

So really, for the second founding chapters, there isn't much of a problem with it.

[Volt]

There's a distinct possibility that Chapters from the same parent Legion consider themselves heirs to the original Legion, particularly the oldest founding Chapters.

 

Likewise; there could very well be little or no difference in genetic make up for such Chapters from the same founding.

 

In universe we even have Nightlords referring to Ultramarines successors as just the Ultramarines.

There's a difference in culture however. The culture of the original Imperial Fists is dead and gone- replaced by far more codex-friendly replacements (whoever they will turn out to be), which is also why we don't see wall names anymore.

[Reldn]

There's a difference in culture however. The culture of the original Imperial Fists is dead and gone- replaced by far more codex-friendly replacements (whoever they will turn out to be), which is also why we don't see wall names anymore.

 

 

This. Although successors may come from the same geneseed of their respective Primarch, and second founding come from their original parent legion, their customs and culture can vary wildly. Take the Mortifactors and the Ultramarines for example.

 

So, second founding or not. The Fists Exemplar have had more than enough time to cultivate their own culture and customs apart from the original Imperial Fists. Them taking their original legion's livery and name will just make them Imperial Fists in name only...I guess now instead of "There are no wolves on Fenris" it has become: "There are no Imperial Fists on the Phalanx."

 

This is why I hope to God that this doesn't become a common thing now in the fluff. For a successor to take up the mantle of their fallen parent legion should be rare in the extreme to practically non-existent, because as mentioned before, and as I said above: Second-founding or no, they've developed their own quirks and personality, changing their name and colours to match their legion of origin does not make them so. Like the old expression of "Lipstick on a pig."

[Phoebus]

And that's not even taking into consideration splits in culture and mentality that may have predated the Second Founding. The Iron Hands, with their decapitated command structure and the various factions that arose after the death of Ferrus Manus were probably ripe for that kind of internal "cultural division." The Charcharodons almost certainly are a product of a sub-faction within the Raven Guard Legion who were at odds with their battle-brethren long before the Heresy.

[Captain Idaho]

Let's keep in mind that many Successors share very similar traditions and traits with the originals.

[Legatus]

Would explain how fists suddenly went from "We'll reduce our numbers, but take your codex and shove it"

 

That didn't happen. The Imperial Fists were never opposed to the Codex doctrines. But maybe you were being humorous.