Perpetuation of the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes

[Leonaides]

 

Would explain how fists suddenly went from "We'll reduce our numbers, but take your codex and shove it"

 

That didn't happen. The Imperial Fists were never opposed to the Codex doctrines. But maybe you were being humorous.

 

In fact - i seem to recall something about after the Iron Cage, the Imperial Fists Chapter spent 10 years or so retraining so as to be fully versed and reorganised according to the codex - and that was with their primarch still leading them!

 

And someone mentioned Wall Names - its entirely possible that they still have wall names, just that we dont see them referred to as such. Maybe its become a buried part of the Imp Fists chapter rituals, that has never been touched on. Maybe they have said that they will on ly use wall names when the last wall is reenacted again or something like that. There are plenty of examples of marines having multiple names.

[Phoebus]

Let's keep in mind that many Successors share very similar traditions and traits with the originals.

Well, yes, of course. I'm just offering that there are known exceptions to this in the lore, and room for even more. :)

[Arkangilos]

What are wall names?

[Legatus]

What are wall names?

 

It's the Imperial Fists' equivalent of "Vlka Fenrika" or "theoretical and practical".

[Teetengee]

 

What are wall names?

 

It's the Imperial Fists' equivalent of "Vlka Fenrika" or "theoretical and practical".

 

This is not terribly helpful, to me at least.

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

 

What are wall names?

It's the Imperial Fists' equivalent of "Vlka Fenrika" or "theoretical and practical".

This is not terribly helpful, to me at least.

Wall-names are names earned on the wall. Some truly elite members were literally named after the walls of the Imperial Palace (like Daylight Wall), but others were more basic. The main Imperial Fist of the Beast Arises series, Koorland, has Slaughter as his wall-name. Killshot is another that I recall.

[Legatus]

Dan Abnett cannot just write about an established Chapter. He has to introduce his own new concept for them, leave his mark. When he wrote about the Space Wolves, he had them call themselves the 'Vlka Fenrika' (and of course they are the Executioners of the Emperor, meant to take down other Legions). When he wrote about the Ultramarines, he made them formulate all things they discuss in the context of "theoretical" and "Practical" considerations (and Ultramar is now 500 worlds, a Chapter is 10,000 strong). Now he was allowed to write about the Imperial Fists, and he had them all take individual "wall" nicknames, a practice based on them being stationed on the walls of the Imperial Palace on Terra.

[Conn Eremon]

Staying on topic, the point about bringing up the wall-names is that they might be an in-universe example of the change that can be wrought by replacing a Chapter with another, in some form or extent. The Imperial Fists used to have this as part of their culture, and it does not appear to have survived. Perhaps a small (and not unwanted) change, but how many other small changes might there have been? Of course, ten thousand years is a long time for there to have been small changes to a Chapter's culture anyways. It's just as possible that a Chapter that rebuilds itself will be as different to its original form as a Chapter replaced by another.

 

However, there might just as easily be an out-of-universe explanation. Wall-names might only appear in the history of the Imperial Fists because Warhammer 40k is a constantly shifting setting and it just so happens that it was when writing about the history of the Imperial Fists that wall-names were introduced. Just like Vlka Fenryka or Theoretical/Practical.

[Phoebus]

Spot-on, Conn.

 

Different folks will always have different preferences, obviously, but isn't it a little unrealistic to assume that nothing changed between M31 and M41; or that the scant paragraphs of lore from the older material represents a picture of the Legiones Astartes and Adeptus Astartes in M31 that is both complete and completely accurate?

[Captain Idaho]

The things Abnett introduced were not replacements but elaboration of the background culture of Chapters/Legions. Nothing he writes about can be considered unacceptable in the eyes of the Black Library and extention GW.

 

On that basis, he has just richened the background material of the company.

 

Regarding what changes there were - Legion size changes has been a Company wide thing and frankly for the better.

[Arkangilos]

Yeah, but to be fair it would have been better if chapters were still 1000 strong, and then there be another level above that.

[Legatus]

The things Abnett introduced were not replacements but elaboration of the background culture of Chapters/Legions. Nothing he writes about can be considered unacceptable in the eyes of the Black Library and extention GW.

 

They not so much changes, as more completely out of nowhere and never heard of before. Personally I would consider neither the constant phrases of "theoretical" and "practical" nor the motto "we march for macragge" a positive contribution. (Though "Courage and Honour" was not much better...)

 

I cringe every time I see someone write about his "Vlka Fenrika".

[Leif Bearclaw]

Why though? While I could see some of the other mantras getting annoying over multiple books, the addition of Fenrisian language like that was one of the better things introduced in Prospero Burns. Why would the barbarian warlord Primarch call his Legion the Space Wolves? It's a weird choice when you think about it without 20+ years of acclimatisation. Putting in the 'improper translation' angle lets them keep the classic name, but also have a more sensible name for works involving the Legion in more detail.

 

Think about it. Why did FW officially give us the Charcharodon Astra in Badab rather than the Space Sharks? Because Space Sharks sounds silly, a throwback to the 80s cheese that (for better or worse) GW has moved the setting away from the in last couple of decades. The only reason Space Wolves sounds less silly than Space Sharks, Space Badgers or Space 'insert animal of choice' is we're used to the Wolves.

[recon0321]

This is what happened in the Blood Angels novels...they suffered mass casualties and the successors were required to send battle brothers to fill the gaps in the BA ranks

[Phoebus]

Arkangilos,

 

I think the reason Abnett did what he did with Chapters was to address the inconsistency between old lore, such as the Apocrypha of Skaros, which was informed by legions of 10,000 Space Marines, and the newer lore, which is based on legions of ~100,000 Space Marines. It's still not a perfect match, but it's easier - at least for me - to imagine that the Successor Chapters in the Apocrypha of Skaros do not represent the actual sum of Second Founding Chapters, but rather are those that symbolically stand for the original, 10,000-Space Marine Chapters of the Great Crusade (with one of them missing).

[Felix Antipodes]

Have to side with Arkangilos here. The older fluff said that post HH the legions were reduced to 1000, a number which was close to the old legion formation known as a Chapter. The necessary (in my mind) up scaling of the legion sizes did not have to alter this at all. Now however, we seem to have x companies = a chapter instead of the reverse.

[Felix Antipodes]

On the subject of Wall names, I believe Abnett, knowing the planned fate of the IF in the series, introduced them as a subtle pointer to the cultural losses suffered between the M32 and M41 versions of the Chapter.

[Felix Antipodes]

Returning to the OP topic, I can see why the HLoT would want the general public to not be aware of the IF Chapter loss. I also believe that they would do the same for any of the other 'original nine' in similar circumstances and for the same reasons. Future fluff may one day show that they have already done so.

 

The BA storyline is not quite the same though as they asked for aspirant stock rather than fully converted Astartes already psycho-processed by their own Chapters.

 

I still don't see why the IF could not have been reformed from their own geneseed even if there were no survivors (which I don't believe). Between their own stocks on the Phalanx and that held by the AdMech, it should be no problem. There would still be the same cultural loss though if there are none left to pass on the hidden Lore which really defines the Chapters.

 

Lastly, it has been said in the fluff several times that the Imperium has got it wrong several times over the centuries wrt Foundings, reusing both names and colour schemes either accidentally (Sable Swords were active in M32 as well as being a 26th Founding Chapter) or on purpose (Mentors given older Chapters colours on their demise). It may be that they keep a list of honoured Chapters and reuse their names and/or livery as circumstances allow. Would explain some of the Chapter names that have turned up in recent books with new colour schemes in recent years.

[Phoebus]

Have to side with Arkangilos here. The older fluff said that post HH the legions were reduced to 1000, a number which was close to the old legion formation known as a Chapter. The necessary (in my mind) up scaling of the legion sizes did not have to alter this at all. Now however, we seem to have x companies = a chapter instead of the reverse.

But... That was only the case for the Ultramarines. Where the other legions are concerned, there are a variety of different task forces. Some of those, like the Dark Angels' Orders (which are formations comprised of multiple Chapters of a size we're familiar with), were first seen in Black Library fiction. Others, like the Death Guard's Great Companies, which were introduced in the Forgeworld books, are obviously a step between some sort of Chapter-equivalent force and the Legion itself (as each nominally numbered 17,000 legionaries; and there appear to have been "commanders" between the captains and Mortarion).

 

I still don't see why the IF could not have been reformed from their own geneseed even if there were no survivors (which I don't believe). Between their own stocks on the Phalanx and that held by the AdMech, it should be no problem. There would still be the same cultural loss though if there are none left to pass on the hidden Lore which really defines the Chapters.

I imagine it's politically untenable for a First Founding Chapter to be out of commission for the decade and change it would take to train aspirants into battle-brothers.

[Felix Antipodes]

 

Have to side with Arkangilos here. The older fluff said that post HH the legions were reduced to 1000, a number which was close to the old legion formation known as a Chapter. The necessary (in my mind) up scaling of the legion sizes did not have to alter this at all. Now however, we seem to have x companies = a chapter instead of the reverse.

But... That was only the case for the Ultramarines. Where the other legions are concerned, there are a variety of different task forces. Some of those, like the Dark Angels' Orders (which are formations comprised of multiple Chapters of a size we're familiar with), were first seen in Black Library fiction. Others, like the Death Guard's Great Companies, which were introduced in the Forgeworld books, are obviously a step between some sort of Chapter-equivalent force and the Legion itself (as each nominally numbered 17,000 legionaries; and there appear to have been "commanders" between the captains and Mortarion.

 

The other units are not really part of the equation though as the quote was specifically referring to a Chapter equaling 1000 personnel. That other Legions used alternate unit sizes/formations is beside the point IMHO.

 

I still don't see why the IF could not have been reformed from their own geneseed even if there were no survivors (which I don't believe). Between their own stocks on the Phalanx and that held by the AdMech, it should be no problem. There would still be the same cultural loss though if there are none left to pass on the hidden Lore which really defines the Chapters.

I imagine it's politically untenable for a First Founding Chapter to be out of commission for the decade and change it would take to train aspirants into battle-brothers.

This is a valid point, especially since it is given as 100 years to become battle ready after implantation of progenoid glands.

[Captain Idaho]

We don't know how much spare geneseed there is though. How much is sent, how much is usable, what failure rates there are.

 

Also it is entirely possible for replacement Marines do not contribute to the genetic respiratory of a Chapter, kind of like a stop gap measure whilst the Chapter rebuilds.

[Arkangilos]

We don't know how much spare geneseed there is though. How much is sent, how much is usable, what failure rates there are.

 

Also it is entirely possible for replacement Marines do not contribute to the genetic respiratory of a Chapter, kind of like a stop gap measure whilst the Chapter rebuilds.

That's also a good point.

 

Perhaps they don't even permanently replace the chapter. They just switch uniforms to provide the illusion that the chapter is still alive. Once it has been rebuilt, they take off their uniform and go back to their original name.

[Phoebus]

Brother Antipodes,

 

I don't think I understand the point you're trying to make, then. Arkangilos said, ...

 

Yeah, but to be fair it would have been better if chapters were still 1000 strong, and then there be another level above that.

What I was trying to illustrate is that this is the case with one notable exception. the Ultramarines are the only case wherein Chapters themselves were "up-scaled" to 10,000 Space Marines, and that other Legions appear to have used the Chapters we're used to (see: Dark Angels, Blood Angels, etc.) or formations of the same size but of a different nomenclature (Emperor's Children). In addition, they also fielded far larger formations (Great Companies, etc.), whose purpose must have been to wage campaigns too great for a single Chapter to prosecute.

 

If anything, I'd offer that several novels point to more than one legion fielding task forces smaller than the conventional Chapter: the Sons of Horus, and the White Scars, for instance, appear to have fielded Companies and Brotherhoods comprised of several hundred Space Marines.

 

Ultimately, though, there's a reason Roboute Guilliman focused on the 1,000-strong Chapter as the basis for his Codex Astartes: he wouldn't have been inventing anything from whole cloth. It was a structure that the Loyalists would have been quite familiar with, even if they called it by different names.

[Phoebus]

We don't know how much spare geneseed there is though. How much is sent, how much is usable, what failure rates there are.

We know each Chapter is responsible for submitting 5% of their gene-seed at "regular intervals." Those intervals would have to be frequent to ensure the Chapter is not in danger of genetic deviance, but spaced out enough to allow for new gene-seed to be implanted into battle-brothers and for maturation. That last bit is always contingent on combat attrition rates. I wouldn't be surprised if the tithe is due every century or so.

 

How much of it is usable and what the failure rates are? Absent transport and laboratory accidents, there doesn't seem to be any issue in actually creating the organs themselves. Implantation success rates seem to be the matter, and the existing lore gives us an idea of how several legion-types do in that regard.

[Legatus]

This is the lore concerning the already existing 'Chapter' formation becoming the new standard Space Marine formation:

 

"The Second Founding of the Space Marines was decreed seven years after the death of Horus. The existing Space Marine Legions were broken up and refounded as smaller, mre flexible formations. Where the old Legions were unlimited in size, the new formations were fixed at approximately one thousand fighting warriors. This corresponded to the existing unit called the Chapter, and in future the Chapter was recognised as the standard autonomous Space Marine formation."

- 3rd Edition Index startes 'Codex Astartes'

 

But now the Ultramarines Legion is said to have used 10,000 strong Chapters instead. What's worse, there are distinct "Chapters" within the Ultramarines Legion described by 'Tempest', such as the "Aurorans" or the "Nemesis", which are foreshadowing of the later 2nd Founding Chapters of the same name. Only the "Aurorans" and "Nemesis" described in 'Tempest' are 10,000 strong formations, not 1,000 strong Chapters. So now effectively only a single company of the "Aurorans" will be re-founded into the Aurora Chapter during the 2nd founding, while the remaining 9 Chapters of the "Aurorans" will be formed into other Chapters.