Perpetuation of the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes

[Felix Antipodes]

Phoebus,

 

I was unaware that only the ULtramarine Legion upped the Chapter size to 10000. I seem to recall a diagram in one of the earlier HH books from FW that gave this as a standard thing across all of them under different names. Now that I'm back at home and can check the book I need to recant yet again. In future I'll keep my comments to myself unless I have the refs to hand.

[Phoebus]

No need to do so; it's just discussion, at the end of the day. For what it's worth, Horus Heresy Book One: Betrayal does have the schematic you speak of, but makes no reference to 10,000-Space Marine Chapters. It offers that ...

 

Originally each Chapter was comprised roughly of a thousand line Legionaries, but as the Legions grew this itself began to vary substantially by Legion, and also through the vicissitudes of war and the availability of replacement recruits.

Book Five: Tempest contradicts this by stating that ...

 

... the XIIIth Legion had remained true to the strictures of the Principia Bellicosa, as laid down by the Emperor and his advisors at the beginning of the Great Crusade, The warriors of the Legion were organized into standardized companies of approximately a thousand warriors, then into chapters, each of ten companies. Unlike many of their brother Legions, they made little attempt to re-codify the structure or vary the size of individual units.

Here's the thing, though. The various books in this series make it rather clear than no Legion started with more than a few thousand Space Marines. Book Five itself indicates that the XIIIth started with only "several thousand" Space Marines, and they are qualified as having only 8,000 or so warriors during the conquest of the Segmentum Solar - not even enough to form one of the Chapters of the structure they were supposedly following. Tellingly, the section describing these early campaigns talks about XIIIth Legion companies, and never makes mention of a chapter.

[Legatus]

I re-checked the story 'Call of the Lion', and I have to correct myself. It does mention the size of the Dark Angels Chapters. At one point one of the Chapter Masters remarks to the other Chapter Master 'You command more than a thousand of the finest warriors in the galaxy, as do I'.

[Gree]

So now effectively only a single company of the "Aurorans" will be re-founded into the Aurora Chapter during the 2nd founding, while the remaining 9 Chapters of the "Aurorans" will be formed into other Chapters.

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I've always assumed that said Chapters where greatly whittled down in the Heresy to much smaller numbers of a thousand or so. Given the fierce beating the Ultramarines took at Calth and later in the Shadow Crusade, I would not find it surprising at all if the ''Aurorans'' where reduced to around a thousand men. Especially if the Ultramarines are set to take part in future heavy fighting in the Heresy series.

[Legatus]

In the 40K game lore the Ultramarines actually grew during the Scouring period. And if BL and FW want to stick to the 400 Second Founding Chapters then the Ultramarines will not be too far below 250,000 when that happens.

[Gree]

In the 40K game lore the Ultramarines actually grew during the Scouring period. And if BL and FW want to stick to the 400 Second Founding Chapters then the Ultramarines will not be too far below 250,000 when that happens.

 

In 40k game lore many things are now different than from the current lore, i.e Legion sizes in the Index Astartes.

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm fine with dismissing that lore as invalid, or at the very least soon to be invalid. In this case I would just headcanon the Ultramarines Chapters being gradually being depleted over the course of the Heresy and then the Scouring before the Second Founding.

[Legatus]

In 40k game lore many things are now different than from the current lore

 

"Current lore" is still that there were around 50 Chapters during 2nd Founding. At least according to the 6th and the 7th Edition Codex Space Marines. The 6th Edition Codex Space Marines also still states that the Ultramarines grew during the Scouring. The 7th Edition Codex has less material and does not mention that period in as much detail.

 

So far, the "new lore" from Black Library has not really made it into the core Warhammer 40K game, even if there may have been a few minor attempts. So at least for now it seems that the Horus Heresy series is not changing the lore, it has made up it's own continuity, completely separate from the main lore of 40K.

[Gree]

 

In 40k game lore many things are now different than from the current lore

 

"Current lore" is still that there were around 50 Chapters during 2nd Founding. At least according to the 6th and the 7th Edition Codex Space Marines. The 6th Edition Codex Space Marines also still states that the Ultramarines grew during the Scouring. The 7th Edition Codex has less material and does not mention that period in as much detail.

 

So far, the "new lore" from Black Library has not really made it into the core Warhammer 40K game, even if there may have been a few minor attempts. So at least for now it seems that the Horus Heresy series is not changing the lore, it has made up it's own continuity, completely separate from the main lore of 40K.

 

 

IIRC The Grey Knights Codex mentions 400 chapters as part of the Second Founding.

 

Black Library is just as valid as anything written in the studio, and vice-versa. You might not regard Black Library as being as valid, and that is your right as a poster. I however hold a completely different opinion and I'm comfortable with regarding the Black Library lore and others as the ''current lore'' with many things in the studio lore being outdated or wrong.

 

For example, I'm fine with dismissing that detail in the 6th edition Codex as the author getting it wrong (Heaven knows how many parts of these books are rather lazily copy/pasted from older editions), or perhaps in-universe Ultramarine propaganda.

[Legatus]

IIRC The Grey Knights Codex mentions 400 chapters as part of the Second Founding.

 

The 5th Edition Matt Ward Codex did, yes. And then the 6th and 7th Edition Space Marines Codices went on to ignore it. The 6th Edition Codex Space marines even explicitely states that the Legions had been ten thousand strong.

[Gree]

 

IIRC The Grey Knights Codex mentions 400 chapters as part of the Second Founding.

 

The 5th Edition Matt Ward Codex did, yes. And then the 6th and 7th Edition Space Marines Codices went on to ignore it. The 6th Edition Codex Space marines even explicitely states that the Legions had been ten thousand strong.

 

 

Yes and I still happily stick to my opinion.

 

As I said, I don't consider that strange or even contradictory as codices often copy/paste older material without necessarily checking with the other lore. That blurb in the 6th edition book really means nothing to me. So I'm fine with regarding the 6th edition Marine Codex as wrong or misinformation or what have you.

[Phoebus]

All that said, there's no guarantee that the Dark Angels Chapters adhere to the 10,000 Marine size. Two or three thousand feels about right, in my mind, for the Dark Angels - but that's gut feeling, little more.

That's the thing: nothing indicates the Dark Angels did adhere to the 10,000 Marine size Chapter. Point of fact, nothing other than Book Five: Tempest indicates that any legion other than the Ultramarines did. Book One: Betrayal has a table that shows the nominal Crusade-era Legion disposition, and it specifies Chapters composed of 1,000 Space Marines. I suppose one can choose to view that single paragraph from the Ultramarines as trumping all other contradicting references, but that feels like a dubious train of thought.

 

So far, the "new lore" from Black Library has not really made it into the core Warhammer 40K game, even if there may have been a few minor attempts. So at least for now it seems that the Horus Heresy series is not changing the lore, it has made up it's own continuity, completely separate from the main lore of 40K.

The lore informing the 40k perspective has always been given within the context of knowledge that has been corrupted by time, censorship, and the transformation of history into legend. Two volumes of lore are cited in describing how many Chapters were formed during the Second Founding, and both are titled as "Apocrypha." That should us all something.

 

Within that context, and meaning no offense, ignoring the changes introduced by Black Library novels and Forge World books - both of which have the blessing of, and written in consultation with, the intellectual property owners - strikes me as willfully putting on horse-blinders.

[Legatus]

I think the first mention of 10,000 strong Ultramarines Chapters was in 'Know No Fear', which I found odd, since earlier books (as mentioned earlier in this thread) had described other Legions such as the Dark Angels using 1,000 strong Chapters. That same book also changes Ultramar to "500 worlds", so I am not sure if these are just some things Dan Abnett thought would make sense or whether they were editorial decisions about a change in lore. The "500 worlds" might have been planned to set up the "Imperium Secundus" plot (gee, arent't we all glad about that), bt to this day I am not sure why they had to change the Chapter size.

 

 

The lore informing the 40k perspective has always been given within the context of knowledge that has been corrupted by time, censorship, and the transformation of history into legend.

 

In some instances the lore is deliberately presented that way. in other instances it is not. I usually cite the Dark Angels Codices for this, since here we are given clear "factual" information from the background writers, such as the whereabouts of Luther and Jonson, the latter being described as "known only to the Emperor". This is not subjective information from an in-universe point of view. This is information no one (except the emperor) in the universe is aware of that the writers of the setting are giving us.

 

The Apocrypha of Davio is only cited specifically with regard to the number of Ultramarine successors. It is not the source for the other Legions' successors listed. And while the accompanying texts for the Successor list will sometimes concede that it may not be complete, and that some Chapters may have been lost or forgotten, other background texts such as e.g. for the Imperial Fists will explicitly describe how Dorn eventually agreed to have his Legion divided and created two Successors in the process.

 

 

ignoring the changes introduced by Black Library novels and Forge World books - both of which have the blessing of, and written in consultation with, the intellectual property owners

 

It may be that the heads at GW really truly intend for the BL authors to completely alter the 40K lore as well. But then I wonder why they have not really made a serious attempt to transfer all the new lore into the last two Space Marines Codices. I would hazard a guess that the Space Marines Codex is probably the most purchased source book of the entire franchise, GW, BL, FW, all of it. If they really meant for the HH series lore to supersede the 40K lore, then surely it should be adopted by the main core 40K source book.

[Brother-Sergeant Valorum]

That's always bothered me. GW and BL come up with some great stuff, but usually have trouble coordinating (or worse, don't even bother trying). For instance, the Salamanders story arc from the Horus Heresy. Don't get me wrong, I like the HH stuff much more than the codex. But the relics of Vulkan being chosen by a space marine rather than the primarch himself, and the whole Unbound Flame/Vulkan himself arc is a bit too deviant from Codex material.

 

To get back to the original topic, it seems as though the covert replacing of Chapters with other Marines is, perhaps, more common than some would like. Take the Genesis Chapter and their weird "spiritual liege" relationship with the Ultramarines. I can't remember where, but I've seen something that says they often send Marines to permanently fill gaps in the ranks of the Ultramarines. Does anyone have a source on that?

[Phoebus]

I think the first mention of 10,000 strong Ultramarines Chapters was in 'Know No Fear', which I found odd, since earlier books (as mentioned earlier in this thread) had described other Legions such as the Dark Angels using 1,000 strong Chapters. That same book also changes Ultramar to "500 worlds", so I am not sure if these are just some things Dan Abnett thought would make sense or whether they were editorial decisions about a change in lore.

From social network and forum posts and afterwords in novels alike, it seems clear that there is at least some coordination between the Black Library authors and the Forge World writing team, and even the people guiding the intellectual property itself.

 

... to this day I am not sure why they had to change the Chapter size.

None of us can be, and I doubt there will ever be a clear explanation. For what it's worth, you have my theory.

 

In some instances the lore is deliberately presented that way. in other instances it is not.

Right, but where this topic is concerned, until Codex: Grey Knights, the number of Chapters created by the Second Founding was presented by the in-universe Apocrypha.

 

The Apocrypha of Davio is only cited specifically with regard to the number of Ultramarine successors.

But fails to name them.

 

It is not the source for the other Legions' successors listed. And while the accompanying texts for the Successor list will sometimes concede that it may not be complete, and that some Chapters may have been lost or forgotten, other background texts such as e.g. for the Imperial Fists will explicitly describe how Dorn eventually agreed to have his Legion divided and created two Successors in the process.

Right. And you can either choose to not accept that this fictional universe has been amended, thereby rendering a great deal of lore void, or you can try to reconcile these changes with the oft-advertised fact that this lore was never meant to be interpreted as complete or accurate.

 

It may be that the heads at GW really truly intend for the BL authors to completely alter the 40K lore as well. But then I wonder why they have not really made a serious attempt to transfer all the new lore into the last two Space Marines Codices.

Because that would require for new and more accurate in-universe lore to somehow be discovered.

 

I would hazard a guess that the Space Marines Codex is probably the most purchased source book of the entire franchise, GW, BL, FW, all of it. If they really meant for the HH series lore to supersede the 40K lore, then surely it should be adopted by the main core 40K source book.

This is a company whose authors and intellectual property manager alike have made it clear that they are not worried about all of the canon being reconciled with one another. What is it that we've heard time and again? "All of it is true, and none of it."

[Legatus]

To get back to the original topic, it seems as though the covert replacing of Chapters with other Marines is, perhaps, more common than some would like. Take the Genesis Chapter and their weird "spiritual liege" relationship with the Ultramarines. I can't remember where, but I've seen something that says they often send Marines to permanently fill gaps in the ranks of the Ultramarines. Does anyone have a source on that?

 

Something like that is described in the Deathwatch RPG supplement 'Rites of Battle'. The units are not said to be transfered permanently to the Ultramarines, though.

 

"Because the Genesis Chapter maintains such close links with its Progenitor, the two Chapters frequently undertake joint operations. Genesis Chapter squads routinely fill gaps in Ultramarines' companies should they fall below codex strength due to battle losses or other commitments. Individual Genesis Chapter Battle-Brothers have even been seconded to the Ultramarines to temporarily fill empty specialist positions in the Ultramarines Chapter such as Librarius and Forge staff."

- Deathwatch RPG supplement 'Rites of Battle', p. 58

[Brother Tyler]

In an effort to keep this on topic, I've split the battle barge/fleet replies into their own topic and am firmly steering us back to the topic at hand.

 

The interesting thing is that the lore of the game universe is constantly being expanded upon, and sometimes changed. There are pieces of the lore that have been changed completely, including things like the founding to which the Ultramarines belonged and the Black Templars originally being a Codex Chapter. Add to this the deliberate obfuscation and contradiction, mirroring reality where what one believes is often based on one's perspective. On top of that, we have the fact that understanding of events changes over time, with some facts being known (sometimes to only a select group) and others disappearing in the mists of time even though they happened.

 

Urban myth (perhaps reality) is that Games Workshop created the IIth and XIth Legions so that players could imagine their own legions in their place, though recent developments from Black Library have clearly established that these Legions no longer exist and were expunged for some mysterious reason that all of the Primarchs, and perhaps some of their contemporaries, know about but which none dare speak of due to fell oaths. There are, of course, bits of in-universe speculation about the reason for their fall and the nature by which it happened, but none are clear, or even certain (despite what we fanboys sometimes want to believe).

 

Things change.

 

So if we assume that the Fists Exemplar become the Imperial Fists after that latter Chapter was destroyed to a man, this is clearly a recent addition to the lore. It's not an amendment. It's not a ret-con. It's simply something that we didn't know about before. Whether we like it or not, it's something that happened. (Again, assuming that is what happened)

 

We can assume that it is possible that it may have happened in other instances. We can all hem and haw about how we don't think it could happen to Chapter X for reason Y, or that "realistically this kind of thing doesn't need to happen" (paraphrasing). Games Workshop says it does, though, so it does.

 

The key is examining the implications of such an event taking place and how it fits in with the firmly established nature of the Imperium, where the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing, indeed, the left hand sets up the right knee to take the fall while the spleen imagines that it's all because the appendix got involved (okay, weird analogy, but deliberately so).

 

Can we imagine other instances where such drastic measures might be necessary?

[Brother-Sergeant Valorum]

 

Something like that is described in the Deathwatch RPG supplement 'Rites of Battle'. The units are not said to be transfered permanently to the Ultramarines, though.

 

 

"Because the Genesis Chapter maintains such close links with its Progenitor, the two Chapters frequently undertake joint operations. Genesis Chapter squads routinely fill gaps in Ultramarines' companies should they fall below codex strength due to battle losses or other commitments. Individual Genesis Chapter Battle-Brothers have even been seconded to the Ultramarines to temporarily fill empty specialist positions in the Ultramarines Chapter such as Librarius and Forge staff."

- Deathwatch RPG supplement 'Rites of Battle', p. 58

That's what I was thinking of. I had forgotten the exact details of the quote. Thanks for the save on that one.

 

Can we imagine other instances where such drastic measures might be necessary?

I can't off the top of my head think of a scenario in which that would be plausible. Maybe in the case of the Emperor's Swords, formed twice, or the near-destroyed Scythes of the Emperor.

[Legatus]

Of course, one example of one Chapter taking over the identity and replacing another, though now no longer canon, is the "3rd Founding Ultra-Marines" taking over the number and identitiy of one of the banished "treacher-legions".

 

"Upon its inception, the Emperor gave the chapter the number 13 - formerly the number of one of the treacher-legions now banished to the Eye of Terror 'without number and name with all honours erased'.

Along with their number, the new chapter received the gene-sperm, implant zygotes, rituals, and other paraphenalia of indoctrination previously entrusted to the banished 13th Legion."

- White Dwarf 97 (Classic), p. 39

 

It was essentially a complete re-founding of the "lost" Chapter/Legion, using the same heraldry and traditions, even the same leftover gene-seed.

 

The article is from january 1988, where the backstory of the "Horus Rebellion" was only now taking shape. Already in 1989, in the 'Space Marine Epic' game, which is set during the Horus Heresy and Scouring, the Ultramarines are now among the original participating Legions (and on the loyalist side, not the "treacher-legion" whose number and identitiy the White Dwarf article spoke of).

What's odd is that on page 61 of the rulebook and the back of the game box it lists six particicpating Imperial Legions (DA, UM, WS, SW, Sal, BA) and six Traitor Legions (WE, EC, DG, TS, SoH, NL), but here the Ultramarines have the number III and the Emperor's Children have the number XIII. (Similarly, the Salamanders have the number VIII and the Night Lords the number XVIII.) So in a way there is still some "they got the number from a traitor Legion" going on here. Though I suspect the numbers for UM/EC and Sal/NL were later swapped because it seemed as too much of a coincidence that all the Legions numbering 1-10 remained loyal and the Legions 11-20 betrayed the Emperor. Very statistically unlikely, that the number of the Legion would correlate that much with the side they chose.

 

Of course in the lore since 2nd Edition the information of the banished Legions was not re-used. It was locked away and deleted from all the public records. The Imperium did not create a replacement "Iron Warriors" Chapter using the same heraldry, traditions, gene-seed, etc. Mainly because the original Iron Warriors are still around. Perhaps when the old "Ultra-Marines" article was written it was assumed that the traitor Legions were gone for good, or that whatever was left of them roamed the warp as generic "Chaos Marines" without any distinct Legion affiliation, so it was possible to re-found that Chapter. But that changed when GW got more into the Horus Heresy background and eventually had the original traitor Legions become a part of the 40K setting.

[Captain Idaho]

An example where Successor Chapters might take over could be whenever a Chapter runs low on Geneseed/recruits.

 

If there is no practical difference in the Geneseed of (for example) the Ultramarines and the Aurora and Genesis Chapters, likely examined by the Ultramarines and Adeptus Mechanicus themselves, it's entirely possible that following the extreme losses of the 1st Tyrannic War, the Ultramarines supplemented their numbers with the Chapters whose genetic legacy was matched with their own.

 

It actually makes a lot of sense, especially if you consider geneseed likely is extremely rare and valuable.

[Phoebus]

Valuable? Absolutely. Rare? Perhaps not so much (relatively speaking).

 

Again, I think it comes down to how often a tithe of gene-seed tithe is required. Five percent essentially translates to roughly fifty Progenoids being sent to Mars. Assuming a tithe submission every century, a Chapter could essentially ensure its Successor-in-whole within two millennia. Practically speaking, though, the Adeptus Mechanicus would have received notification of a Chapter's Founding a long time in advance. A single tithe could thus realistically be cultured into a almost Chapter's worth of gene-seed within less than four decades (fifty Progenoids being turned into eight hundred sets of organs).

[Captain Idaho]

That's making assumptions on the geneseed though. Progenoid glands take 5 and 10 years respectively to grow to maturity.

 

In that time we have to factor in loss of the recruit to warfare and corruption or failure of organs impacting the samples in the Progenoids, making them unsuitable.

 

In addition, there is the failure rate of growing organs from these Progenoid glands and body rejection and loss of recruits in the implantation stage.

 

As such, whilst getting 2 for 1 out of every recruit means there might be a lot (relatively) of geneseed flying about, the success rate percentage is likely very low.

 

In universe, Space Marines fight and die to protect geneseed in the stories. Punitive measures are absolute if a Chapter fails to deliver its tithe. This all tells us that the stuff is valuable enough to die for.

 

If it was so easy to use, everyone would be doing it. There would be loads spare and Chapters could have a permanent supply of recruits ready to join the Chapter every time there's a death.

[Volt]

In an effort to keep this on topic, I've split the battle barge/fleet replies into their own topic and am firmly steering us back to the topic at hand.

 

The interesting thing is that the lore of the game universe is constantly being expanded upon, and sometimes changed. There are pieces of the lore that have been changed completely, including things like the founding to which the Ultramarines belonged and the Black Templars originally being a Codex Chapter. Add to this the deliberate obfuscation and contradiction, mirroring reality where what one believes is often based on one's perspective. On top of that, we have the fact that understanding of events changes over time, with some facts being known (sometimes to only a select group) and others disappearing in the mists of time even though they happened.

 

Urban myth (perhaps reality) is that Games Workshop created the IIth and XIth Legions so that players could imagine their own legions in their place, though recent developments from Black Library have clearly established that these Legions no longer exist and were expunged for some mysterious reason that all of the Primarchs, and perhaps some of their contemporaries, know about but which none dare speak of due to fell oaths. There are, of course, bits of in-universe speculation about the reason for their fall and the nature by which it happened, but none are clear, or even certain (despite what we fanboys sometimes want to believe).

 

Things change.

 

So if we assume that the Fists Exemplar become the Imperial Fists after that latter Chapter was destroyed to a man, this is clearly a recent addition to the lore. It's not an amendment. It's not a ret-con. It's simply something that we didn't know about before. Whether we like it or not, it's something that happened. (Again, assuming that is what happened)

 

We can assume that it is possible that it may have happened in other instances. We can all hem and haw about how we don't think it could happen to Chapter X for reason Y, or that "realistically this kind of thing doesn't need to happen" (paraphrasing). Games Workshop says it does, though, so it does.

 

The key is examining the implications of such an event taking place and how it fits in with the firmly established nature of the Imperium, where the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing, indeed, the left hand sets up the right knee to take the fall while the spleen imagines that it's all because the appendix got involved (okay, weird analogy, but deliberately so).

 

Can we imagine other instances where such drastic measures might be necessary?

It is an urban myth. The Missing Legions were made purely because GW liked the mystery of the missing roman legions, struck from history for failures or betrayals so great that they did not deserve to be immortalized like the others. It was never meant for people to create their own legions.

 

 

 

That's making assumptions on the geneseed though. Progenoid glands take 5 and 10 years respectively to grow to maturity.

 

In that time we have to factor in loss of the recruit to warfare and corruption or failure of organs impacting the samples in the Progenoids, making them unsuitable.

 

In addition, there is the failure rate of growing organs from these Progenoid glands and body rejection and loss of recruits in the implantation stage.

 

As such, whilst getting 2 for 1 out of every recruit means there might be a lot (relatively) of geneseed flying about, the success rate percentage is likely very low.

 

In universe, Space Marines fight and die to protect geneseed in the stories. Punitive measures are absolute if a Chapter fails to deliver its tithe. This all tells us that the stuff is valuable enough to die for.

 

If it was so easy to use, everyone would be doing it. There would be loads spare and Chapters could have a permanent supply of recruits ready to join the Chapter every time there's a death.

Which again is only due to GW failing to understand numbers. Veteran Sergeant crunched numbers on DakkaDakka and came to the conclusion that unsurprisingly, GW is full of gak and doesn't know what they're writing. There's also the barely touched on issue of just stuffing gene-seed into vat-grown bodies like what is done for Admech servitors (they aren't all criminals), specifically grown to fit the traits needed for a successful transplant. Stick it in the vat body, grow it for two decades, then harvest it and repeat the process.

[Arkangilos]

Yeah, based on GC era legions, I feel like the geneseed thing is more an issue because of legal restraints as opposed to biological restraints.

 

*not mentioning warfare and tradition*

[Volt]

Yeah, based on GC era legions, I feel like the geneseed thing is more an issue because of legal restraints as opposed to biological restraints.

 

*not mentioning warfare and tradition*

Unhappy Anchovy on Spacebattles came up with a good theory. The reason why Foundings are so rare and even random Chapter formations unconnected to them are few and far between is because everybody in the Administratum hates Space Marines. They're independent, can give you the finger unless you have enough political clout, and can basically do whatever the hell they want (within reason). This headache of managing them leads to the Imperium ripping its hair out and never wanting something as crazy as a hundred million space marine chapters.

[Captain Idaho]

 

That's making assumptions on the geneseed though. Progenoid glands take 5 and 10 years respectively to grow to maturity.

In that time we have to factor in loss of the recruit to warfare and corruption or failure of organs impacting the samples in the Progenoids, making them unsuitable.

In addition, there is the failure rate of growing organs from these Progenoid glands and body rejection and loss of recruits in the implantation stage.

As such, whilst getting 2 for 1 out of every recruit means there might be a lot (relatively) of geneseed flying about, the success rate percentage is likely very low.

In universe, Space Marines fight and die to protect geneseed in the stories. Punitive measures are absolute if a Chapter fails to deliver its tithe. This all tells us that the stuff is valuable enough to die for.

If it was so easy to use, everyone would be doing it. There would be loads spare and Chapters could have a permanent supply of recruits ready to join the Chapter every time there's a death.

 

Which again is only due to GW failing to understand numbers. Veteran Sergeant crunched numbers on DakkaDakka and came to the conclusion that unsurprisingly, GW is full of gak and doesn't know what they're writing. There's also the barely touched on issue of just stuffing gene-seed into vat-grown bodies like what is done for Admech servitors (they aren't all criminals), specifically grown to fit the traits needed for a successful transplant. Stick it in the vat body, grow it for two decades, then harvest it and repeat the process.

 

Sorry, another assumption that we can vat grow the additional organs. They have to all be keyed into eachother and the Progenoid glands so how can we just grow replacement organs? We don't know.

 

Regarding numbers; if there's about 1500 Space Marines per Chapter, each producing 2 Progenoids, that's 3000 right? Well, after all the variables I mentioned, what if there is 50% failure rate? As in, the Progenoid is unusable, the subject dies or the recruit dies - all variables.

 

Such a failure rate amounts to just barely replacing the Chapter losses.

 

It would be interesting to know what the failure rates are.