Perpetuation of the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes

[Arkangilos]

1300 years, probably 4 generations for most marines, maybe the odd exception here or there or dreadnought. Consider how your own country has changed since the 1920s... now apply that level of potential change to a marine chapter.

But how many people do we have still alive and functional/able to think clearly from those years do we have? We've also had more drastic changes than they have had, and we don't hypo indoctrinate our kids to the level that space marines do.

[Teetengee]

Ultimately, can we all agree that some culture would be lost, but not as much as the test slave method? That at least was the only point I was trying to make. It is more about damage control than really wholly solving the problem.

[Captain Idaho]

I think that they are deemed inferior out of spite and only from one particular group within the lore (although references to other points of view are welcome). You'll find that the ones with the low opinion of loyalist space marines, I believe, are chaos space marines. They have every motive to slight, belittle, insult and generally bad-mouth the descendants of the Legions that they fought and lost to in the Horus Heresy.

 

In The Chapter's Due, Pansanius remarks on how weak and inferior the renegades were in comparisons to themselves, only to be reprimanded by Ventris that they still massacred civilians.

 

Could do with Legatus on this one, our resident Librarian. ;)

[Legatus]

I haven't read past the second Uriel Ventris books, so I am not that familiar with concepts brought up mainly in that series. I just browsed through the other books for the outlandish descriptions of the Codex Astartes.

 

Technically, Imperial Marines post-Heresy are created more stable and are better trained that Marines were during the Great Crusade, so are essentially superior to newly created traitor Marines. Traitors that have survived since the Heresy have obviously a wealth of battle experience (and possibly some daemonic enhancements) over a freshly created Imperial Marine.

 

I don't recall reading about loyalist Marines of a later founding being of lesser quality to an earlier founding. Technically they are created from the gene tithes of the Primogenitors, so they should be genetically pretty much identical. They just don't have the long established traditions and start with a blank slate. So from that angle you would perhaps expect a Chapter that was around for 7,000 years to be of greater value than a Chapter that was perhaps only around for 1,000 years. But realistically there should be no difference in the gene-seed, the creation process, and the doctrines.

 

The musings by the traitor Marine in the 3.5 Codex Chaos Space Marines (p. 3) sound very subjective and biased. He sees the Space Marines of the 41st Millennium as "tawdry progeny of the Founding Legions", and as "merely faded echoes of their former glory". But then the ragged traitor warbands are not exactly spitting images of the original Legion formations either, but a traitor will probably feel more like they have found their true calling, or something like that. I would even go as far as saying that a Codex Chapter is closer to the Legions of old (just reduced in scale) than a traitor warband is. It's just that members of a traitor warband often were there, back when there were still the Legions.

[Volt]

I think that they are deemed inferior out of spite and only from one particular group within the lore (although references to other points of view are welcome). You'll find that the ones with the low opinion of loyalist space marines, I believe, are chaos space marines. They have every motive to slight, belittle, insult and generally bad-mouth the descendants of the Legions that they fought and lost to in the Horus Heresy.

"Mad cuz bad"

It's also important to remember that there is one almighty rock in the preservation of a Chapter's culture, even from Legion days. DREADNOUGHTS. While Bjorn is the only one still alive as of M41 that participated in the Horus Heresy, that doesn't mean the Imperial Fists prior to the Beast didn't, hell they probably had lots. There wouldn't be much cultural drift (so to speak of) when you have five or more guys who were around since the beginning and knew Rogal Dorn personally, and participated in the battles that formed the modern Imperial Fists (Iron Cage, crusades against Chaos post HH). Likewise for other Chapters in 'modern' 40k, while nobody is as old as Bjorn, there's still Dreadnoughts who are 3,000 or 5,000 years old who have seen everything in that time. Those dreadnoughts will also have known Dreadnoughts from the Horus Heresy, meaning there's individuals in a chapter who are only 2-3 generations removed from the Great Crusade.

[Leonaides]

Cold point out in evidence for the above that ADB had a Blood Angels dreadnought appear who had fought against them during the heresy - specifically against the captain who was interred into a chaos dreadnought - durign the heresy the fight was captain vs captain, in the night lords book it was dread vs dread in a boarding action. Unfortunately, due to Bjorns 'oldest living marine' plot armour, the BA had to die...

[Xisor]

I think that they are deemed inferior out of spite and only from one particular group within the lore (although references to other points of view are welcome). You'll find that the ones with the low opinion of loyalist space marines, I believe, are chaos space marines. They have every motive to slight, belittle, insult and generally bad-mouth the descendants of the Legions that they fought and lost to in the Horus Heresy.

"Mad cuz bad"

It's also important to remember that there is one almighty rock in the preservation of a Chapter's culture, even from Legion days. DREADNOUGHTS. While Bjorn is the only one still alive as of M41 that participated in the Horus Heresy, that doesn't mean the Imperial Fists prior to the Beast didn't, hell they probably had lots. There wouldn't be much cultural drift (so to speak of) when you have five or more guys who were around since the beginning and knew Rogal Dorn personally, and participated in the battles that formed the modern Imperial Fists (Iron Cage, crusades against Chaos post HH). Likewise for other Chapters in 'modern' 40k, while nobody is as old as Bjorn, there's still Dreadnoughts who are 3,000 or 5,000 years old who have seen everything in that time. Those dreadnoughts will also have known Dreadnoughts from the Horus Heresy, meaning there's individuals in a chapter who are only 2-3 generations removed from the Great Crusade.

Not a fan of "kids these days" sort of grumbling, by any chance? Never been baffled by people using weird words like hip, cool or jive? Doing strange modern dances?

The dreadnoughts are out and about rarely, they're relics of days gone by - not cultural trend-setters in the vanguard of fashion.

Young radicals in positions of power are, classically, where the change might come from - Ragnar Blackmane, Tu'shan and so forth.

---

Of course there's also the point that incredibly old beings are not representative of the culture that was there in their youth. Bjorn dictated what the Space Wolves chapter would be, but even by the time of Battle of the Fang, the Chapter he'd shepherded was going in different directions from the Legion he left. (IMO even that should be more stark, generally.) And that's ignoring the next eight millennia.

Worse, you have the =][= propensity to become more radical in your old age too... so it wouldn't surprise me if dreadnoughts and old codgers were just mistrusted, being famous firebrands and hecklers, as likely to recommend destruction and apostasy (with respect to culture) as they are to uphold the ancient ways.

"'Never giving up' is what put me in this shell and saw my brothers dread; Throne damn you - retreat!"

---

You get the idea. Moreover, it's the dynamism of possibility that intrigues me now - it should be a constant tension and pressure within chapters, even if they're ultimately unchanging.

As Moody said: CONSTANT VIGILANCE!

[Phoebus]

As such, whilst getting 2 for 1 out of every recruit means there might be a lot (relatively) of geneseed flying about, the success rate percentage is likely very low.

Sure, but the fact remains that the Chapter still needs to submit 5% of whatever they have. Maybe that's only five sets instead of the optimal fifty (and change). Either way, the Adeptus Mechanicum get something, right?

 

If it was so easy to use, everyone would be doing it. There would be loads spare and Chapters could have a permanent supply of recruits ready to join the Chapter every time there's a death.

Have you noticed that the latest edition's Codex emphasizes the fact that Scout Companies don't have a fixed size?

 

“Unlike the other companies in a Space Marine Chapter, there is no fixed limit on how large a Chapter’s 10th Company should be. Thus some Chapters, most notably the Raven Guard and the Ultramarines, field large numbers of Scouts. By comparison, Chapters such as the Salamanders or the ill-fated Crimson Fists possess comparatively small 10th Companies, either due to their cautious, steady nature or because of the need to husband their perilously low stocks of gene-seed.”

 

Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Codex: Space Marines (Enhanced Edition).” v1.2. Games Workshop, 2015. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

Such a failure rate amounts to just barely replacing the Chapter losses.

What do Chapter losses look like though? If it takes 5-10 years to just grow the organs and another 8 years or so to get some through the Scout Company, it sounds like Space Marines just don't die that often.

 

(remember that Successor Chapters are often deemed inferior copies to the originals).

Don't tell that to the Black Templars! ;)

[Sete]

Pfff tell that to the Imperial Fists.

And BT had members of the Original Legion. Including the First Captain. They are the descendants of the Imperial Fists 1st company basically. What's that non sense about being inferior?

[Volt]

Pfff tell that to the Imperial Fists.

And BT had members of the Original Legion. Including the First Captain. They are the descendants of the Imperial Fists 1st company basically. What's that non sense about being inferior?

BT's also get more done than the Fists ever had, and unlike the Fists don't suffer from GW's burning desire to make everything with a primary yellow scheme to get their asses kicked. I never liked the Fists themselves too much, mainly because the fluff just seems to cast them more as yellow painted Ultramarines outside of the HH series.

Back on topic, there's also other Chapters that abandon the idea of companies really altogether. The Carcharodons Astra for example have unusually sized companies with their own Veterans and Scouts, and don't have any reserve companies.

[Sete]

Pfff tell that to the Imperial Fists.

And BT had members of the Original Legion. Including the First Captain. They are the descendants of the Imperial Fists 1st company basically. What's that non sense about being inferior?

BT's also get more done than the Fists ever had, and unlike the Fists don't suffer from GW's burning desire to make everything with a primary yellow scheme to get their asses kicked. I never liked the Fists themselves too much, mainly because the fluff just seems to cast them more as yellow painted Ultramarines outside of the HH series.

Back on topic, there's also other Chapters that abandon the idea of companies really altogether. The Carcharodons Astra for example have unusually sized companies with their own Veterans and Scouts, and don't have any reserve companies.

The beast Arises series actually provides an explanation for these yellow Ultramarines.

[Trevak Dal]

I never got that particular insult by chaos Marines. Second founding chapters are the legions split up. It wasn't until the third and consecutive foundings that they got "thin blooded" but I've always seen that as high talk from some mutated old guys.

[Captain Idaho]

Yet other 1st Founding share the same attitude, namely referenced by an Ultramarine who is not known for an overbearing, critical attitude.