Ruststalkers mathammer is hard...

[JeffTibbetts]

Despite my love for the Adeptus Mechanicus I'm not very good with math and probabilities sometimes. I'm just trying to think through some things before I build my Ruststalkers. I know everyone complains they're not that great, but I like the models so I'm building them anyway. I want to make sure I don't mess up arming them because I don't feel like magnetizing them. Maybe some of you fine folks can help me think about this. 

 

On the profile Ruststalkers have 2 attacks (3 for the Princeps) and there's no indication their two CC weapons are already counted. So do they have 3 attacks base, and 4 on the charge, right? 

 

So, if they're armed with the basic razors and claws, they would have 12 S5 attacks (wounding on 3+ against marines), and 4 that wound on a 2+. All of these would be AP2 if I roll a 6 to wound, so maybe a couple on the first turn. Before combat, they'd also have one measly small blast that wounds on a 4+, but I'd think at least once in a while that might bounce back on them since they're in charge range... The Princeps would also add a hit at I10, plus 4 more razors one extra chord attack. Does that all sound right? 

 

Alternatively, if they have blades, they'd lose the 2+ attack and the grenade in the exchange, but all their attacks would be S6 on the charge and S5 on every other turn. Assuming hitting against MEQ, that would mean they're wounding at 2+ on ALL their attacks the first turn, and 3+ on subsequent turns. Right? 3+ with AP2 on subsequent turns, to be exact. That's pretty dang good, right? Doesn't that also mean the extra chordclaw on a blade Princeps doesn't really do much besides add an extra attack?

 

It seems like the blades are the way to go, since really I'd mostly be missing the 1 grenade. Maybe on higher toughness targets the Fleshbane attacks would be missed, I suppose. I don't really ever play Eldar, though, so only my regular Tau buddy would even be a candidate for that. 

 

With the special activations on 6s, I can't find a math hammer website that will do the calculations correctly. Does anyone have a recommendation there? 

[Kilofix]

There was a previous post with calculations for this but I forget where.

 

But the short of it is, against 3+, T4 - Blades are the way to go.

 

Razors and Claws against higher T or 2+.

[MoGuy]

 

 

On the profile Ruststalkers have 2 attacks (3 for the Princeps) and there's no indication their two CC weapons are already counted

 

Two CC weapons are never included in the base statline (at least I know of no such instance). And yes, they have 4 on the charge and the Princeps has 5 attacks on the charge.

 

 

 

 

So, if they're armed with the basic razors and claws, they would have 12 S5 attacks 

 

Buddy come on, this is simple multiplication. A squad consists of minimum 5 guys (4 normal and 1 Princeps). So we have 4 x 4 + 1 x 5 = 21 attacks on the charge. Not 16. :P

 

6s to wound on first turn: 21 x 1/6 = 3,5. So roughly 4 automatic wounds on average. :)

 

The thing is, you don't want to lose the grenades because those enable you to swing at full Initiative when charging through difficult terrain. Otherwise those MEQs will probably hit you first and considering how fragile the Sicarians are, you don't want that. 

 

I also recommend you scroll through the HARD DATA thread because we have had multiple discussion on this exact topic there - along with all the mathhammer data you need. :)

 

[JeffTibbetts]

Mo, I was counting the Princeps separately so the basic attacks were just for the regular dudes. My basic math is fine as far as I can tell. 

 

And I've looked through the HARD DATA thread a bunch, but there's so much there I couldn't find this conversation in it (plus I'm at work and that thread is LONG)... 

 

Good point on the grenades, though. I hadn't considered that bit at all. I still don't know if that happens often enough to offset the advantage from the blades' strength. Maybe my opponents aren't playing well but I don't charge into cover all that often. 

[Vel'Cona]

Uh oh, the last time this one came up I think a few of us broke some hearts. Needless to say, the argument goes back and forth on Ruststalker equip!

[Terminus]

The difference in damage output was marginal enough not to really matter, with the grenades of the stock load-out being the major tiebreaker.  Even being able to only use one in combat, I still want assault grenades on a squish assaunt unit that wants to strike first.  If you play in terrain-less bubbles and care about fractions of wounds difference, then by all means go swords. Swords are also a nice aesthetic choice.  If I ever get a third unit for that formation, I'll arm them with swords just for variety.

[JeffTibbetts]

Hmmmmm... I may be downplaying the effect of the grenades. I'll have to put some thought into this. 

[Terminus]

Let's put it this way, if going after a vehicle (dreadnought or Knight or whatever), you can still throw a grenade, and then assault for a second grenade + data spike attacks. So even with the FAQ you can use them twice in one turn if you're the aggressor.  Plus the whole assault grenade thing as mentioned above.

 

As for additional attacks from a second CCW, the profile will state if an extra attack is already included for having two weapons (this is usually in the case of special characters and you see it a lot on robots/walkers in 30K). If there is no asterisk by the attack stat or accompanying message, then you get +1 over whatever is on the profile for having two weapons.

[Castellan Cato]

The way I see ruststalkers is as CC vehicle hunters, though they share that role with dragoons who are more versatile.  For this they need the swords and grenades.

 

It costs a few points, but you can give the princeps a data spike and then use that as his primary melee weapon.  On the charge, this gives him an I10 haywire attack and then 5 haywire attacks at initiative.  One more member can use the grenades in combat (stupid FAQ ruining grenades), giving you a total of 7 haywire attacks.  Seems to me like there's not many vehicles in the game that can survive this.  Even a knight will probably go down, though you'll likely lose your guys at the same time but they're a much smaller points investment.    Someday I plan on doing this, but I'm slow on building up my Ad mech forces until the next IA drops.

 

And in the event that there's no good vehicles targets left, they're still not shabby against other targets.

[MoGuy]

 

 

 I still don't know if that happens often enough to offset the advantage from the blades' strength. Maybe my opponents aren't playing well but I don't charge into cover all that often. 

 

If your local players don't utilize terrain then you can get away with taking the blades. I wouldn't recommend it tho because any good player will see the Ruststalker-Charge coming from half a mile away (since they are footslogging in lieu of our lack of transports) and thus position accordingly. This may not sting as much when charging Tactical Marines who aren't meant for CC. But as soon as those Ruststalkers try to engage another dedicated close combat unit, swinging at Ini 1 will be a death sentence. 

 

 

 

 

The way I see ruststalkers is as CC vehicle hunters

 

That certainly is an option. But we can get Vanguards with Arc Rifles for that, which will pop vehicles from a safe distance, whilst costing less than the Ruststalkers and being ObSec. 

[JeffTibbetts]

Okay, the claws and razors are winning this argument right now. If the damage output against most targets is close, but the haywire attacks make them more versatile, it seems like a better choice. I do think the swords look great, but I can live with that. 

[Terminus]

The way I see ruststalkers is as CC vehicle hunters, though they share that role with dragoons who are more versatile. For this they need the swords and grenades.

 

It costs a few points, but you can give the princeps a data spike and then use that as his primary melee weapon. On the charge, this gives him an I10 haywire attack and then 5 haywire attacks at initiative. One more member can use the grenades in combat (stupid FAQ ruining grenades), giving you a total of 7 haywire attacks. Seems to me like there's not many vehicles in the game that can survive this. Even a knight will probably go down, though you'll likely lose your guys at the same time but they're a much smaller points investment. Someday I plan on doing this, but I'm slow on building up my Ad mech forces until the next IA drops.

 

And in the event that there's no good vehicles targets left, they're still not shabby against other targets.

This is a pretty funny post. So a 5-man squad can dish out 7 haywire attacks (8 if you count the thrown), which will kill Knights twice as expensive, and yet somehow they are "ruined" because they can't do it 12 times instead.

 

Grenades aren't ruined, grenades were ruining walkers. It's better this way.

[Vel'Cona]

 

Grenades aren't ruined, grenades were ruining walkers. It's better this way.

 

I'd agree Haywire grenades and meltabombs were a huge problem for walkers, but they're a drop in the bucket compared to Grav spam and GMCs.

[Castellan Cato]

 

The way I see ruststalkers is as CC vehicle hunters, though they share that role with dragoons who are more versatile. For this they need the swords and grenades.

It costs a few points, but you can give the princeps a data spike and then use that as his primary melee weapon. On the charge, this gives him an I10 haywire attack and then 5 haywire attacks at initiative. One more member can use the grenades in combat (stupid FAQ ruining grenades), giving you a total of 7 haywire attacks. Seems to me like there's not many vehicles in the game that can survive this. Even a knight will probably go down, though you'll likely lose your guys at the same time but they're a much smaller points investment. Someday I plan on doing this, but I'm slow on building up my Ad mech forces until the next IA drops.

And in the event that there's no good vehicles targets left, they're still not shabby against other targets.

This is a pretty funny post. So a 5-man squad can dish out 7 haywire attacks (8 if you count the thrown), which will kill Knights twice as expensive, and yet somehow they are "ruined" because they can't do it 12 times instead.

Grenades aren't ruined, grenades were ruining walkers. It's better this way.

Oh you're right. I'm just salty that it hurt the way I ran R&H :P

[MagicHat]

This thread contains factual incorrect information, which is heresy.

 

 

 

 

The way I see ruststalkers is as CC vehicle hunters

That certainly is an option. But we can get Vanguards with Arc Rifles for that, which will pop vehicles from a safe distance, whilst costing less than the Ruststalkers and being ObSec.

No such thing as ObSec in Skitarii land...

I still agree with the opinion though, but uses a unit of ruststalkers anyway.

 

Skitarii dataspikes are specialist weapons IIRC, so 3 A base, 4 for charging and plus 1 for dataspike makes 5 on a charge.

[JeffTibbetts]

As a specialist weapon you wouldn't get bonus attacks for having other weapons, so it should just be 3 base and 4 on the charge, full stop. Right? 

[MagicHat]

As a specialist weapon you wouldn't get bonus attacks for having other weapons, so it should just be 3 base and 4 on the charge, full stop. Right?

Kinda. 4 on the charge, plus the I10 A that the dataspike always does.

[JeffTibbetts]

Oh! I see what you're saying. Yeah... I guess that makes sense.