3D printing and its effect on future miniatures production

[appiah4]

 

If it was so easy to convert older molds to digital files, would we not be seeing classic models reproduced on fancy CAD-sprues in plastic?

 

 

No you would not, if for the simple fact that 3d scanning a one piece pewter model (which is actually not a complicated or expensive thing to do anymore) does not equate to automatically exploding it into a printable multi part sprue mold that will in turn need to be manufactured from scratch for use in plastic injection.  That, actually, is a lot more work and money than scanning it, uploading to a 3D printer and hitting print.  In your method, I need to model new plastic injection compatible sprues and manufacture sprue molds for every model.  In mine, I just need to invest in a high resolution 3D printer - and we are done.

[Xenith]

 

 

And this is a certain sign that if you have GW stock you should sell it, because if they can print to order figures of their usual quality that means in 5 years we will be able to pirate and print miniature models in our homes.

 

In what world is GW popping their existing Sly Marbo mold into their existing production line to make one model a revolution that heralds the arrival of print-at-home technology?

 

 

If you believe GW will actually change their whole production line and bother with moving moulds around to inject 5 Sly Marbo figures to order, I wish them good luck with that and advise you to actually take a look at the costs of doing such.

 

The only possible way such a venture can work is 3D printing, and if they can confidently 3D print a Sly Marbo at an industrial grade printer today, that means you can print one at your home in 5 years with a home use 3D printer.

 

The logic is simple, and a lot of people will come around to reject it I'm sure.  But we'll see who will have the last laugh in five years.

 

 

I'd like to point out that GW already did custom runs with their bitz service. If you ordered a bit (in metal) and they didnt have it in stock, they would go and make some for you. That's why the metal bitz you got were in various stages of oxidation. 

 

This service is nothing new, although they did drop it due to metal costs a while ago.

 

I assume the after market price of oop models has made the venture economic again. 

[Dosjetka]

The only possible way such a venture can work is 3D printing [...]

And yet Subtle Discord claims the exact opposite just before you. He knows his stuff in the field of casting and 3D printing so I'm curious to know how you came to that conclusion.

[Canadian_F_H]

I know a few people who work with 3d printing proffessionally. One works where they 3d print draft copies of cad designed jewelry the other has his own 3d printing stuff and played 40k heavily years ago. Neither one sees 3d printing giving a satisfying result for the hobby in the near future... one said maybe he would use it for odd ball large pieces that nobody else makes an alternative to... maybe terrain doodads and vehicle bits.

 

Idk, maybe gw has better 3d printers than one of the biggest jewelry maufacturers in the world. I guess their machines are only for drafts so maybe not as good. Tho time and cost is a part... plastic is cheaper than gold, so they don't mind the cost. And they run the ma check in over night to make a wedding band sized peice...

[appiah4]

 

The only possible way such a venture can work is 3D printing [...]

And yet Subtle Discord claims the exact opposite just before you. He knows his stuff in the field of casting and 3D printing so I'm curious to know how you came to that conclusion.

 

 

I'm not in the business of miniatures, but I'm an engineer and worked in line production in automotive and white goods; as a result I've had extensive experience in working with press, casting and injection molds.  I know what it is like, and how much it costs to change molds for even smallest industrial grade plastic injection machinery, and I know you can't inject pastic into molds for metallic casting.  I know how much it costs to make new molds for plastic and I know you can't make your money back from that by casting small quantities to order.  I'm not questioning anybody's experience or knowledge in making and selling miniatures, but my experience is that if this will happen it will either have to be 3d printing, or something completely outside the box - such as a pre-order method for limited pewter or finecast mass production runs of old models using already available molds (however this is NOT really a made to order production per se).

 

 

I know a few people who work with 3d printing proffessionally. One works where they 3d print draft copies of cad designed jewelry the other has his own 3d printing stuff and played 40k heavily years ago. Neither one sees 3d printing giving a satisfying result for the hobby in the near future... one said maybe he would use it for odd ball large pieces that nobody else makes an alternative to... maybe terrain doodads and vehicle bits.

 

Idk, maybe gw has better 3d printers than one of the biggest jewelry maufacturers in the world. I guess their machines are only for drafts so maybe not as good. Tho time and cost is a part... plastic is cheaper than gold, so they don't mind the cost. And they run the ma check in over night to make a wedding band sized peice...

 

Your buddy is wrong and this was basic Shapeways quality in 2014:

 

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VO7VqOmSxNc/VKIq8SxV9SI/AAAAAAAAPwQ/87VpWXICQzQ/s1600/TB40K%2B-%2B3D%2BPrinted%2B28mm%2BMinis%2B16.jpg

 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-TkWnaA5uWh8/VKM9Ow5I48I/AAAAAAAAPx0/RRjjLxvN384/s1600/TB40K%2B-%2B3D%2BPrinted%2B28mm%2BMinis%2B20.jpg

 

I believe his mistake is to expect a jeweller's quality of surface finish from miniatures, which when cast in pewter or resin already need a lot of surface correction regardless.  They come out of a 3D printer in comparable quality already; GW already prints and paints their 3D painted prototypes as noted by another member in another thread.

[appiah4]

And there goes a very relevant discussion because reasons..

[Subtle Discord]

I'm sorry if this is considered 'off topic', but I've written it, so I'm going to post it. I really do feel it ties in well with the rumors of this 'Made to Order' announcement that GW made, because people are creating rumors on how it will be done and what it will entail.

Listen, I won’t claim to be some all-knowing expert and positive that I’m right. That said, this is the kind of thing I’ve been studying for the last 5 years, and working very closely with hands-on for my own small-scale production. 3D printing will be central to my production process going forward, so I’ve been doing quite a bit of research. I’ve been closely following 3D printing for ~10 years and have been hearing about (and personally waiting on) that magical “in 3-5 years…” the entire time. While the tech has improved considerably and the price is really starting to really plummet it’s still not a mainstream manufacturing process yet, in my humble opinion. Case-in-point, when I started college 4+ years ago I was hoping by the time I was done the tech would be where the ‘3-5 years’ crowd kept saying it would be. I’m in my final year of school, and it’s still not there yet. It’s at a point to really shake up the industry, but I question if it’s ready for GW-scale production of final product.

I've worked with the Polyjet process pictured that Shapeways uses for their 'fine detail' and 'extra fine' prints, and while amazing on many levels, it also has real drawbacks. Most notable, the 'sandy' surface texture and 'stepping' that you can see all over the examples you've shown. Not to mention just how brittle it is; I've dropped small parts (read: low mass, small drop/strike force) only to have them shatter and break. I've applied just a little too much pressure to somewhat delicate details that 'normal' miniatures could easily handle, only to have the detail snap off. The layering process of 3D printing is its greatest power and also its hidden weakness. Then there's the cost; the cost per model can quickly become eye-watering with higher quality print processes; fine if you’re after master models and if you’re really keen for something very unique and willing to pay the considerable premium for it, but hard to swallow on a large scale or ‘on a whim’. Finally, there’s the turn-around; Shapeways only does 3D printing on a huge scale, with massive investments in only that production method, perfecting their process over years, and you’re still waiting 4-6 weeks for even the smallest order for their high-end printing. 3D printing is just not very efficient as a final manufacturing method. Needless to say, if it does happen, I suspect there will be a long list of disclaimers attached to the product, because of these kinds of cravats. If you’re expecting the same overall quality from a 3D print as you can expect from the rest of the GW line, then you better be ready for reality. GW does use 3D printing on their studio models, but there is likely a very painstaking hands-on ‘finishing’ process done to them to get them camera ready.

I think the 'Made to Order' name GW has given this initiative has people conjecturing, and there's nothing wrong with that. The name creates a metal image that easily fits with what many people think is a perfect fit for 3D printing. But I question just how far they’ll really take it, and how much freedom of choice will really be involved. We’re all just guessing at this point. And, I'll be the first to admit I might be wrong and need to eat crow; GW has surprised me several times in the last while with their company choices, and it would be very interesting if they choose to try and spearhead and dominate the 3D printed miniatures market by virtue of their market share and sheer clout. If someone wanted to try and do it, GW is that someone, I’m the first to admit.

I have also worked closely with several massive manufacturers of plastic goods over the years of my study, (in fact, I’m working with a ABC right now, a billion dollar manufacturer of plastic components to the auto industry) and have a growing firsthand knowledge of what’s involved in that type of production. Not once have I suggested that they would do extremely tiny runs of injection plastics to fulfill single, or even small batches, of orders. I would suspect they would do smaller (but still quite large) ‘limited’ runs of things that they’re tracking as still being popular, at a scale the make sense, but isn’t full-tilt production; and then offer it as ‘while supplies last’. There are many times a company may have a large expensive machine sitting idle because all of the needs for a given ‘current project’ are fulfilled; you’re losing money if that machine is sitting idle so why not have it do some ‘specialty’ runs while it waits on the next major product. Same can be said for the library of injection moulds GW has; they’re made, paid for, and sitting idle; anytime you can leverage an asset like that can be profitable, if done right. (new starter sets, anyone?) Again, this is pure conjecture, as I have no idea just how GW handles their manufacturing.

I still think if 3D printing enters the mix, it will be as an in-house solution to resurrect older miniatures to be used to create a modern masters of the model. Then those masters will be used to create moulds required to do the limited scale casting runs in resin. Even on a limited scale, resin casting can produce units exponentially faster than 3D printing, and in a superior material. Personally, I think the biggest failing of Fine Cast came from it trying to keep up massive demand it was expected to handle; it’s just not up to the task of cranking out product on their mainstream offerings, and the quality suffered for it. Now, for more specialty offers, that will likely see much smaller demand, it seems that it could fit well with that level of demand and produce good results. They’ve still got all that equipment they invested in, after all. But again, this is pure conjecture.

I guess we’ll all have a better idea what GW has in mind in a few days (15^th is really close), and I’m just as curious as anyone to see what they have planned. I have a good feeling it will include injected plastic sprews, because I have a hard time thinking GW couldn’t find a way to make that work. But it will be interesting to see how (or if) they will handle and/or offer product that was produced in metal or urethane resin. That really is the big ‘?’ on this initiative.

Ok, I promise to shut up now. This got much longer then expected. I've got other 'more improtant' (but much more dull) things I should be doing, anyhow. Damn you, foul seductress that is procrastination!

[appiah4]

No need to shut up that was a great read. And I do agree with a good deal of it. I also pointed out limited runs of limited selections could be their game here but if thats the case its not really made to order.

[Subtle Discord]

*sigh* While I don't really mind having this conversation moved over here, may I point out that this thread and the conversation instantly died because the moderator who move the conversation here originally said that essentially B&C isn't the place for this kind of conversation. A topic about the effect 3D printing might have on the hobby had too much tech and timeline conversation and didn't have enough 'forum specific content', as it were. Not a single post was made after that point.

 

I love ya' B&C, but it's becoming hard to have an engaging organic conversation; they tend to wander to the most interesting insightful places if the content is meaningful. (Key factor!) A subject that encompasses something as hobby-spanning as 3D printing can be difficult to focus to make it constantly conform to the rather focused subject matter of B&C. I would argue it shouldn't be; subjects like this (especially in the Amicus Aedes area) completely encompasses everything that these boards are about by default, but are also so far reaching at it's unreasonable to impose too many limitations. Otherwise, why even bother? In many cases I completely understand, a subject needs to be kept on track, but in other cases the subject deserves, and it's meant to be, more broad and 'free range' to be of any merit.

 

Please consider this in future when choosing to correct the course of a conversation in a thread. Thank you.

[Frater Cornelius]

^Sort of agree. I do not know why tech, that is directly related to our hobby should be forbidden in Amicus. Isn't 'general conversations' the whole point of this sub-forum?

 

But that is the great debate, isn't it? The trade-off between freedom and order. Either one taken to the extreme is bad, so where do you strike the balance?

[Halandaar]

*sigh* While I don't really mind having this conversation moved over here, may I point out that this thread and the conversation instantly died because the moderator who move the conversation here originally said that essentially B&C isn't the place for this kind of conversation. A topic about the effect 3D printing might have on the hobby had too much tech and timeline conversation and didn't have enough 'forum specific content', as it were. Not a single post was made after that point.

 

I love ya' B&C, but it's becoming hard to have an engaging organic conversation; they tend to wander to the most interesting insightful places if the content is meaningful. (Key factor!) A subject that encompasses something as hobby-spanning as 3D printing can be difficult to focus to make it constantly conform to the rather focused subject matter of B&C. I would argue it shouldn't be; subjects like this (especially in the Amicus Aedes area) completely encompasses everything that these boards are about by default, but are also so far reaching at it's unreasonable to impose too many limitations. Otherwise, why even bother? In many cases I completely understand, a subject needs to be kept on track, but in other cases the subject deserves, and it's meant to be, more broad and 'free range' to be of any merit.

 

Please consider this in future when choosing to correct the course of a conversation in a thread. Thank you.

 

Absolutely 100% agree with this. It is completely nonsensical that this thread was killed off over three weeks ago for being "not board relevant", and has now been used as a dumping ground for posts which contain mention of 3D printing by the very same Mod, especially when the content of some of those moved posts was completely relevant to the thread they were originally posted in. Now if you read through this thread from the beginning you have this really jarring switch between two completely different discussions. I pointed this out in the Made to Order thread, and that post was subsequently "moderated" away, surprise surprise.

 

Anyway, seeing as by virtue of my posts being moved I'm now participating in a conversation about 3D printing (which was never my actual intent), I suppose I'd better say something about it.

 

The Made to Order scheme seems to have transpired as using traditional casting methods and existing equipment, so we know GW aren't in the business of 3D printing, at least not yet. The last we heard from GW on the subject, they were "monitoring" advances in the technology rather than making any concrete moves towards embracing it (I believe this is from a financial report but I don't remember exactly.)

 

As for 3D print components themselves, I've had a couple of pieces from Shapeways which I was happy with, but they did have that grainy texture that's been mentioned already and it seems like getting a level of detail and quality comparable to what we get from GW is still some way off. Of course, the price is quite high as well for what you get (although I assume that's a result of on-demand production runs?)

[appiah4]

The mods on B&C dont want to hear that 3d printing is a thing or dont want other people to learn. Regardless you are stuck here for however long the thread stays open.

[armarnis]

3d printing mass market for miniatures in our current quality is at least 10 years away. might even end up as 3d in tvs. a thing for a short time, people realize its :cuss / not as expected and leave it.

[Frater Cornelius]

The mods on B&C dont want to hear that 3d printing is a thing or dont want other people to learn. Regardless you are stuck here for however long the thread stays open.

 

Not sure what you mean. Does B&C have a monopoly in 3D printing? If not, I fail to see why B&C mods would be interested in keeping this topic down. The way I see it it is just one or several mods doing things a bit too much by the book or get overzealous at times.

[appiah4]

 

 

The mods on B&C dont want to hear that 3d printing is a thing or dont want other people to learn. Regardless you are stuck here for however long the thread stays open.

Not sure what you mean. Does B&C have a monopoly in 3D printing? If not, I fail to see why B&C mods would be interested in keeping this topic down. The way I see it it is just one or several mods doing things a bit too much by the book or get overzealous at times.

It is often a gateway to discussion of the future of the hobby and how selling miniatures will be a dead end when they can be readily pirated in a near future. This conversation rubs the powers that be wrong.

[Flint13]

Discussion of recasting and scratch production for personal use is just fine on the BnC and has been for quite some time.

 

Just as long as you don't discuss or link to anyone doing so illegitimately for profit.

 

Carry on ^_^

[appiah4]

Discussion of recasting and scratch production for personal use is just fine on the BnC and has been for quite some time.

 

Just as long as you don't discuss or link to anyone doing so illegitimately for profit.

 

Carry on ^_^

It eventually devolves into how easy it will be to 3d scan, share, print models not scratch build. And this possibility or probability rather would rather be swept under the rug. That is all I know from what I have observed. Its like discussing recasters. Disallowed because if we pretend as much they will disappear. 3d printing is a cardinal sin that is being prwempted almost it would seem. Pardon my spelling driving as I type. Other way around even.

[Ciler]

I've heard, and I believe it to be true, that GW has researched 3D printing extremely thoroughly and even invested a lot to improve the technology. They, of course, use it to prototype all their miniatures and the quality is good enough to hand them to the 'Eavy Metal team. If you zoom in on their models you can clearly see the 'stair-stepping' on curved edges. 

 

I'm certain they have a fairly clear and accurate idea of when the quality/cost ratio will make things difficult for them and they're planning for a transition of sorts. Printing your own entire army at high quality would be cost-prohibitive in all kinds of ways, and frankly it would take a really long time. I mean, unless there's a paradigm shift in the way the process itself works, I understand it wouldn't EVER be very fast. 

 

At any rate, I think they're probably way ahead of us consumers on the topic. I'm 100% sure they're not blissfully unaware as they've mentioned it in quarterly reports before. 

I wholeheartedly agree with this, and that is also the feedback I have from a former Notthingham GW employee. He did not work himself in the tech department (he was in accouting), and he left GW a few years ago, but at the time they already had 3D printers and were investing heavily into the technology.

 

Much like oil companies are primary investors in alternate energy sources, I expect GW is fully aware of the potential effects of home 3D printing on their business model and are (hopefully) taking steps to ensure they move on with the times.

 

I, for one, would be perfectly happy to pay for 3D models, in much the same way I pay for digital codexes. I'm aware that some can be obtained for free over  the internet, but then again i'm the kind of idiot that orders their GW stuff from the GW store rather than 20% off on wayland, because if my local GW closes down then I won't have anywhere to hang out on sat afternoons...

[Flint13]

 

Discussion of recasting and scratch production for personal use is just fine on the BnC and has been for quite some time.

Just as long as you don't discuss or link to anyone doing so illegitimately for profit.

Carry on ^_^

It eventually devolves into how easy it will be to 3d scan, share, print models not scratch build. And this possibility or probability rather would rather be swept under the rug. That is all I know from what I have observed. Its like discussing recasters. Disallowed because if we pretend as much they will disappear. 3d printing is a cardinal sin that is being prwempted almost it would seem. Pardon my spelling driving as I type. Other way around even.

For profit recasters won't disappear regardless of our stance on their discussion. But the key point there isn't recasting, it is intellectual property theft. So yes, we would be disallowing discussion of any illegal activities.

 

Discussion of personal use building, 3D printing, recasting and the like are all well and good. The line between the two topics is neither thin nor subtle.

 

Either way, I would not suggest forum activity of any type while driving. Seems risky.

[LutherMax]

Either way, I would not suggest forum activity of any type while driving. Seems risky.

I was gonna say exactly the same thing - not worth the risk man!

[Brother Tyler]

Discussion of recasting and scratch production for personal use is just fine on the BnC and has been for quite some time.

Just as long as you don't discuss or link to anyone doing so illegitimately for profit.

Carry on

It eventually devolves into how easy it will be to 3d scan, share, print models not scratch build. And this possibility or probability rather would rather be swept under the rug. That is all I know from what I have observed. Its like discussing recasters. Disallowed because if we pretend as much they will disappear. 3d printing is a cardinal sin that is being prwempted almost it would seem. Pardon my spelling driving as I type. Other way around even.

An interesting conspiracy theory, but patently false.

Discussion of 3D printing/additive manufacturing and recasting is allowed. If you read the forum rules (linked below in my signature), you won't find anything that even implies that you can't discuss these topics with regard to how they might impact the hobby and how hobbyists might make use of them for their enjoyment of the hobby.

What isn't allowed is doing them for personal profit.

Please get your facts straight before you troll around spreading falsehood and insulting the mods.

[Corswain]

Atia has confirmed (on War of Sigmar) that the made-to-order models will be in metal. GW obviously feel that they will make more of a profit by doing them in metal rather than moving to printed versions.....at this time.

 

To be fair, they are older models and possibly not worth the investment of moving to a new material. If they have the old moulds still, there isn't any great investment for them. It will be interesting to see the cost.

[Black Cohort]

I think the big thing for 3d printing initially will be stuff like chapter specific shoulder pads, fur cloaks, custom weapons and such. essentially custom bits for people that don't have the sculpting/ greenstuff skills to do themselves. At this stage mass production of full models is too time consuming and expensive at the quality people want.

[appiah4]

Discussion of recasting and scratch production for personal use is just fine on the BnC and has been for quite some time.

Just as long as you don't discuss or link to anyone doing so illegitimately for profit.

Carry on

It eventually devolves into how easy it will be to 3d scan, share, print models not scratch build. And this possibility or probability rather would rather be swept under the rug. That is all I know from what I have observed. Its like discussing recasters. Disallowed because if we pretend as much they will disappear. 3d printing is a cardinal sin that is being prwempted almost it would seem. Pardon my spelling driving as I type. Other way around even.

An interesting conspiracy theory, but patently false.

Discussion of 3D printing/additive manufacturing and recasting is allowed. If you read the forum rules (linked below in my signature), you won't find anything that even implies that you can't discuss these topics with regard to how they might impact the hobby and how hobbyists might make use of them for their enjoyment of the hobby.

What isn't allowed is doing them for personal profit.

Please get your facts straight before you troll around spreading falsehood and insulting the mods.

I never disputed what the TOS says I shared my view on how I saw the subject treated. I would apologize for being wrong had I been alone in thinking the matter is being dealt with heavy prejudice and scorn but considering the response here and in the context of what was posted and removed from the other subject Id say the mods need to sit and think a bit instead.

Also if you are so easily insulted you should probably treat other peoples ideas and posts with more respect not throw them out a window because your idea of moderation involves heavy handedly directing conversation to your desire. This is what happens when you do. People living in glass houses and all.

[Captain Idaho]

If you have a problem with the Moderation in this topic you should PM an Admin to engage in conversation with the matter, rather than responding so in this (or any other) thread. The very dispute you raise is off topic and takes the tone of the thread and subject of discussion off into a negative and ultimately doomed direction. (In the sense the topic will be ignored and thus closed)