3D printing and its effect on future miniatures production

[Halandaar]

I think the big thing for 3d printing initially will be stuff like chapter specific shoulder pads, fur cloaks, custom weapons and such. essentially custom bits for people that don't have the sculpting/ greenstuff skills to do themselves. At this stage mass production of full models is too time consuming and expensive at the quality people want.

 

Even then I think it would have to be for quite niche products; if demand is going to be high, they might as well do them in plastic. Even one of the things you mentioned (Chapter Specific Shoulder Pads) is something we already have 5 plastic upgrade sprues for.

 

Maybe if it was for a really niche chapter with a small following, on-demand 3D print runs would be more cost effective way to give people shoulder pads, but I think if a chapter is considered "big" enough to justify the design time for a set of shoulders, it's probably also big enough to justify a plastic sprue.

[Black Cohort]

 

 

I think the big thing for 3d printing initially will be stuff like chapter specific shoulder pads, fur cloaks, custom weapons and such. essentially custom bits for people that don't have the sculpting/ greenstuff skills to do themselves. At this stage mass production of full models is too time consuming and expensive at the quality people want.

Even then I think it would have to be for quite niche products; if demand is going to be high, they might as well do them in plastic. Even one of the things you mentioned (Chapter Specific Shoulder Pads) is something we already have 5 plastic upgrade sprues for.

 

Maybe if it was for a really niche chapter with a small following, on-demand 3D print runs would be more cost effective way to give people shoulder pads, but I think if a chapter is considered "big" enough to justify the design time for a set of shoulders, it's probably also big enough to justify a plastic sprue.

I was thinking more from the random person with a 3d printer, not GW. So some guy with his custom chapter or chapter that doesn't have a big enough following to get GW/ FW shoulder pads.

[Halandaar]

 

 

I think the big thing for 3d printing initially will be stuff like chapter specific shoulder pads, fur cloaks, custom weapons and such. essentially custom bits for people that don't have the sculpting/ greenstuff skills to do themselves. At this stage mass production of full models is too time consuming and expensive at the quality people want.

Even then I think it would have to be for quite niche products; if demand is going to be high, they might as well do them in plastic. Even one of the things you mentioned (Chapter Specific Shoulder Pads) is something we already have 5 plastic upgrade sprues for.

 

Maybe if it was for a really niche chapter with a small following, on-demand 3D print runs would be more cost effective way to give people shoulder pads, but I think if a chapter is considered "big" enough to justify the design time for a set of shoulders, it's probably also big enough to justify a plastic sprue.

I was thinking more from the random person with a 3d printer, not GW. So some guy with his custom chapter or chapter that doesn't have a big enough following to get GW/ FW shoulder pads.

 

 

Ah, well in which case, such efforts are very much already occuring :) There are a number of sellers on Shapeways selling custom shoulder pads (and other bits) for a massive array of GW's less supported chapters   errr, "Totally Original Space Warrior Clans"

[Ciler]

Ah, well in which case, such efforts are very much already occuring There are a number of sellers on Shapeways selling custom shoulder pads (and other bits) for a massive array of GW's less supported chapters errr, "Totally Original Space Warrior Clans"

Actually, most shapeway vendors do not even attempt to hide the fact that they are providing parts intended for GW models. Simply what they provide is never identical to an existing GW product. For instance, there's a seller that provides an extensive range of Mk. 2/3 style shoulder pads with any and all chapter badges. The added value isn't the chapter badge, but the fact that those marks of shoulder pads simply do not otherwise exist (at present at least).

In this regard, although they are clearly on teh darker gray side of IP infringement, they could very validately argue that they are not taking any business away from GW.

[Subtle Discord]

Actually, from what I've learned about Copyright and Intellectual Property law, if they are reproducing for profit any symbol or icon that can be 100% attributed to GW as the creator, without permission, there is no grey zone, they've crossed the IP line; doesn't matter what you put it on. If you want to use (read: sell) the Greek omega letter 'Ω' (despite being used for Ultramarines), or an Iron Warriors-like skull motif (despite GW's love for skulls) GW has no grounds to stop you. However, if you want to use the World Eater's icon, or the full Blood Angles symbol (not just a blood drop), GW created those and can defend their right to ownership. However, the onus is on GW to assert and defend their ownership at their expense. Lost sales or not, it could/would be argued that the creator is devaluing the GW product line by selling what could be an inferior, confusing, or misleading, product. You may be able to gain some 'wiggle room' (read: they might leave you alone) if it is very clearly stated (even if it's very obvious) that the product is unofficial and in no way endorsed by GW, but that is no guarantee. They own the rights to anything they created, and this is why I'm very particular of any iconography or symbols I use in my humble studio, and I'll continue that going forward.

 

My guess is that small scale producers like those through Shapeways are either off of GWs radar (there really are quite a few and they can be hard to keep track of) or considered so small that they're not worth the effort (yet). There might also be some merit to the idea that as long the 3rd party making the bits isn't costing them sales of the product that does exist (you still need to buy a Marine model to use the pads, after-all) they're willing to ignore them. Remember, GW must foot the bill to defend their rights, and even a simple C&D letter is going to cost them something. But there is nothing stopping them from asserting their right to ownership and it could very well be a rude wake-up call to some of these producers in the future, especially if they get large enough for GW to take serious notice.

 

Edit: In fact it's a very real scenario that GW will at some point approach Shapeways directly and have them close down any IP infringing producers in one go. It's within their rights, and it follows the user agreement created by Shapeways themselves, that all of their users agree to before using the service. GW would simply request that they enforce their own policy.

 

Jeez. I feel like a public service announcement. And now you know, and knowing is half the battle!

[Corswain]

What a lot of people seem to forget when discussing 3D printing is that it's not the only thing moving forwards.

We forget that while 3D printing is improving, growing and changing - so is plastic.

 

It's been suggested many times that 3D printing is at least 10 years away, imagine what plastic will be like in 10 years!

I look back at how much better plastic (and resin) is than it was 10 years ago and how much it could change in another 10 years and I have to imagine that 3D printing will keep getting pushed back.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that in 10 years time, 3D printing might be viable but it might not be better.

Yeah, maybe every household will have a 3D printer/scanner in 10 years (and I kinda doubt it) but I personally would rather pay GW for a superior, plastic option. And if plastic isn't going to be better, then I'm sure GW is going to be all over it and we'll see 3D printed models form them.

[Black Cohort]

you also have to think about how computers/ holograms will change the hobby, probably farther in the future but still a concern.  At some point our hologram technology will get to the point where you can buy a "smart" table that can display holograms of models, do all dice rolling and math for you, automatically generate terrain for a game.  As I said a threat that is further away, and not everyone would want to move to a lack of physical models, but a threat none the less.

[Subtle Discord]

What a lot of people seem to forget when discussing 3D printing is that it's not the only thing moving forwards.

We forget that while 3D printing is improving, growing and changing - so is plastic.

 

It's been suggested many times that 3D printing is at least 10 years away, imagine what plastic will be like in 10 years!

I look back at how much better plastic (and resin) is than it was 10 years ago and how much it could change in another 10 years and I have to imagine that 3D printing will keep getting pushed back.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that in 10 years time, 3D printing might be viable but it might not be better.

Yeah, maybe every household will have a 3D printer/scanner in 10 years (and I kinda doubt it) but I personally would rather pay GW for a superior, plastic option. And if plastic isn't going to be better, then I'm sure GW is going to be all over it and we'll see 3D printed models form them.

 

There's some real merit to that point. Not just plastic technology, but even the rubber used to make moulds today was unheard of ~10 years ago, maybe a little more. What I'm doing today wouldn't even be possible without it, period.

 

While everyone gets caught up in the idea of 'printing everything at home', I think 3D printing has some real major hurdles to overcome for that to become a reality. There tends to be a trade-off with the technology; you can make strong parts, but they won't be very high detail/fidelity/quality, or you can make high detail/fidelity/quality parts, but it they tend to be very fragile and not suited for 'real-world' use. Getting the best of both worlds, at a respectable speed and cost, is going to be a real challenge. Remember, miniature printing would still be a niche market for consumer 3D printing and not the main driving force to pushing it mainstream. What people want is to be able to print all manner of useful objects that they can actually use for what they are, or produce replacement parts for something that has broken. Additionally, it will need to be as easy as printing a document from a computer today before they'll really consider accepting it. Trust me, there is a ton of hidden setup, maintenance, repair costs, and labour that people either ignore or don't know about when they talk about the future of 3D printing.

 

Many people also have a very mistaken idea that you can 3D print something like a running shoe that is ready to wear; and the reality is you can make a reasonable facsimile of something that looks like a running shoe, but it will in no way function as one. You can print many of the parts that make up a blender, but you can't print a working blender, and many average consumers would only be interested if you could print the working blender. And even if you could print all of the parts of a blender, you'd still need to assemble it, and most consumers aren't interested in that. This is what the mass market really wants, and the technology will need to gain mass market appeal in a big way before we start to see them become as ubiquitous as the microwave or inkjet printers. There are many common small scale manufacturing tools that exist today and are easily within reach of anyone willing to invest a modest amount and learn, it doesn't mean everyone owns them and uses them to make things all the time. I think 3D printing will stay in this type of realm for quite some time; wide spread and very common, but still used mostly by people who specialize in them to do made-to-order production. That, and extreme hobbyists, artists, and tinkerers, who are willing to accept the learning curve and costs involved.

[LutherMax]

Actually, from what I've learned about Copyright and Intellectual Property law, if they are reproducing for profit any symbol or icon that can be 100% attributed to GW as the creator, without permission, there is no grey zone, they've crossed the IP line; doesn't matter what you put it on. If you want to use (read: sell) the Greek omega letter 'Ω' (despite being used for Ultramarines), or an Iron Warriors-like skull motif (despite GW's love for skulls) GW has no grounds to stop you. However, if you want to use the World Eater's icon, or the full Blood Angles symbol (not just a blood drop), GW created those and can defend their right to ownership. However, the onus is on GW to assert and defend their ownership at their expense. Lost sales or not, it could/would be argued that the creator is devaluing the GW product line by selling what could be an inferior, confusing, or misleading, product. You may be able to gain some 'wiggle room' (read: they might leave you alone) if it is very clearly stated (even if it's very obvious) that the product is unofficial and in no way endorsed by GW, but that is no guarantee. They own the rights to anything they created, and this is why I'm very particular of any iconography or symbols I use in my humble studio, and I'll continue that going forward.

 

My guess is that small scale producers like those through Shapeways are either off of GWs radar (there really are quite a few and they can be hard to keep track of) or considered so small that they're not worth the effort (yet). There might also be some merit to the idea that as long the 3rd party making the bits isn't costing them sales of the product that does exist (you still need to buy a Marine model to use the pads, after-all) they're willing to ignore them. Remember, GW must foot the bill to defend their rights, and even a simple C&D letter is going to cost them something. But there is nothing stopping them from asserting their right to ownership and it could very well be a rude wake-up call to some of these producers in the future, especially if they get large enough for GW to take serious notice.

 

Edit: In fact it's a very real scenario that GW will at some point approach Shapeways directly and have them close down any IP infringing producers in one go. It's within their rights, and it follows the user agreement created by Shapeways themselves, that all of their users agree to before using the service. GW would simply request that they enforce their own policy.

 

Jeez. I feel like a public service announcement. And now you know, and knowing is half the battle!

Just to add to this - not only are GW within their rights to go after those infringing their IP, they are obliged to. Little known fact in copyright law: If the owner does not actively persue infringement, they risk the loss of the copyright. That's why a lot of these 'David & Goliath' cases happen, which GW don't really want because 1) they're often not worth the cost, and 2) they're bad for PR. But they have to do it in order to retain the IP.

 

Case in point: Spots the Space Marine.

[paulJam]

Just to add to this - not only are GW within their rights to go after those infringing their IP, they are obliged to. Little known fact in copyright law: If the owner does not actively persue infringement, they risk the loss of the copyright. That's why a lot of these 'David & Goliath' cases happen, which GW don't really want because 1) they're often not worth the cost, and 2) they're bad for PR. But they have to do it in order to retain the IP.

 

that's actually an interesting point, thanks for that luthermax.

makes the companies that do it seem like douchy and frivolous.  less :)

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

 

Actually, from what I've learned about Copyright and Intellectual Property law, if they are reproducing for profit any symbol or icon that can be 100% attributed to GW as the creator, without permission, there is no grey zone, they've crossed the IP line; doesn't matter what you put it on. If you want to use (read: sell) the Greek omega letter 'Ω' (despite being used for Ultramarines), or an Iron Warriors-like skull motif (despite GW's love for skulls) GW has no grounds to stop you. However, if you want to use the World Eater's icon, or the full Blood Angles symbol (not just a blood drop), GW created those and can defend their right to ownership. However, the onus is on GW to assert and defend their ownership at their expense. Lost sales or not, it could/would be argued that the creator is devaluing the GW product line by selling what could be an inferior, confusing, or misleading, product. You may be able to gain some 'wiggle room' (read: they might leave you alone) if it is very clearly stated (even if it's very obvious) that the product is unofficial and in no way endorsed by GW, but that is no guarantee. They own the rights to anything they created, and this is why I'm very particular of any iconography or symbols I use in my humble studio, and I'll continue that going forward.

 

My guess is that small scale producers like those through Shapeways are either off of GWs radar (there really are quite a few and they can be hard to keep track of) or considered so small that they're not worth the effort (yet). There might also be some merit to the idea that as long the 3rd party making the bits isn't costing them sales of the product that does exist (you still need to buy a Marine model to use the pads, after-all) they're willing to ignore them. Remember, GW must foot the bill to defend their rights, and even a simple C&D letter is going to cost them something. But there is nothing stopping them from asserting their right to ownership and it could very well be a rude wake-up call to some of these producers in the future, especially if they get large enough for GW to take serious notice.

 

Edit: In fact it's a very real scenario that GW will at some point approach Shapeways directly and have them close down any IP infringing producers in one go. It's within their rights, and it follows the user agreement created by Shapeways themselves, that all of their users agree to before using the service. GW would simply request that they enforce their own policy.

 

Jeez. I feel like a public service announcement. And now you know, and knowing is half the battle!

Just to add to this - not only are GW within their rights to go after those infringing their IP, they are obliged to. Little known fact in copyright law: If the owner does not actively persue infringement, they risk the loss of the copyright. That's why a lot of these 'David & Goliath' cases happen, which GW don't really want because 1) they're often not worth the cost, and 2) they're bad for PR. But they have to do it in order to retain the IP.

 

Case in point: Spots the Space Marine.

 

True, and I'll say this, the Space Marine stupidity is as much on the copyright office as it is on GW. GW should never have been granted Space Marine in the first place.

[deathspectersgt7]

I'am a very big user of shapeways for the pads . But I have to have the Marines that go with them . So

[CommodusXIII]

If home casting didn't wreck the hobby, then home 3D printing probably won't.

 

That being said, generic 3D printed architectural bits have been an absolute godsend for my terrain projects. Definitely miles away from model quality, though.

[Terminus]

Hmm, digital files would actually be interesting. You could customize iconography and weapons, and print out a ready one-piece model.

[Corswain]

I don't really see GW ever selling their models as digital files. I can imagine them changing up their process so that each country has a central HQ where they have the digital files and manufacture and distribute from there.

Even still, it's probably not financially viable. For countries like Australia, it will still be cheaper to manufacture overseas and import. I don't see home 3D printing changing that too much.

[Terminus]

Or they'll start lacing their plasticrack with actual crack that's absorbed through the skin.

[The Unseen]

Somewhere, somehow, a coca-cola executive just looked up from his desk with a cold chill.

[A D-B]

 

 

Actually, from what I've learned about Copyright and Intellectual Property law, if they are reproducing for profit any symbol or icon that can be 100% attributed to GW as the creator, without permission, there is no grey zone, they've crossed the IP line; doesn't matter what you put it on. If you want to use (read: sell) the Greek omega letter 'Ω' (despite being used for Ultramarines), or an Iron Warriors-like skull motif (despite GW's love for skulls) GW has no grounds to stop you. However, if you want to use the World Eater's icon, or the full Blood Angles symbol (not just a blood drop), GW created those and can defend their right to ownership. However, the onus is on GW to assert and defend their ownership at their expense. Lost sales or not, it could/would be argued that the creator is devaluing the GW product line by selling what could be an inferior, confusing, or misleading, product. You may be able to gain some 'wiggle room' (read: they might leave you alone) if it is very clearly stated (even if it's very obvious) that the product is unofficial and in no way endorsed by GW, but that is no guarantee. They own the rights to anything they created, and this is why I'm very particular of any iconography or symbols I use in my humble studio, and I'll continue that going forward.

 

My guess is that small scale producers like those through Shapeways are either off of GWs radar (there really are quite a few and they can be hard to keep track of) or considered so small that they're not worth the effort (yet). There might also be some merit to the idea that as long the 3rd party making the bits isn't costing them sales of the product that does exist (you still need to buy a Marine model to use the pads, after-all) they're willing to ignore them. Remember, GW must foot the bill to defend their rights, and even a simple C&D letter is going to cost them something. But there is nothing stopping them from asserting their right to ownership and it could very well be a rude wake-up call to some of these producers in the future, especially if they get large enough for GW to take serious notice.

 

Edit: In fact it's a very real scenario that GW will at some point approach Shapeways directly and have them close down any IP infringing producers in one go. It's within their rights, and it follows the user agreement created by Shapeways themselves, that all of their users agree to before using the service. GW would simply request that they enforce their own policy.

 

Jeez. I feel like a public service announcement. And now you know, and knowing is half the battle!

Just to add to this - not only are GW within their rights to go after those infringing their IP, they are obliged to. Little known fact in copyright law: If the owner does not actively persue infringement, they risk the loss of the copyright. That's why a lot of these 'David & Goliath' cases happen, which GW don't really want because 1) they're often not worth the cost, and 2) they're bad for PR. But they have to do it in order to retain the IP.

 

Case in point: Spots the Space Marine.

 

True, and I'll say this, the Space Marine stupidity is as much on the copyright office as it is on GW. GW should never have been granted Space Marine in the first place.

 

 

Trademark. Not copyright. So, so, so different legally and practically.

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

 

 

 

Trademark. Not copyright. So, so, so different legally and practically.

 

Thanks for the correction I didn't notice the mistake.

[Ishagu]

I don't think this will be an issue for GW.

 

People can make their own clothes, but we don't.

We can make our own sandwich in the morning but we still get stuff from the Deli shops, etc, etc.

[grailkeeper]

I don't think this will be an issue for GW.

 

People can make their own clothes, but we don't.

We can make our own sandwich in the morning but we still get stuff from the Deli shops, etc, etc.

We can sculpt our own models, but we dont.

 

But if all it took to make our own clothes was to download a file and push a few buttons on a printer, I think quite a few might.

[Space Truckin]

 

I don't think this will be an issue for GW.

 

People can make their own clothes, but we don't.

We can make our own sandwich in the morning but we still get stuff from the Deli shops, etc, etc.

We can sculpt our own models, but we dont.

 

But if all it took to make our own clothes was to download a file and push a few buttons on a printer, I think quite a few might.

 

 

There is also a 3D Pancake Printer - http://www.pancakebot.com/

Doesn't mean that IHOP or Waffle House are going out of business either

[grailkeeper]

 

 

I don't think this will be an issue for GW.

 

People can make their own clothes, but we don't.

We can make our own sandwich in the morning but we still get stuff from the Deli shops, etc, etc.

We can sculpt our own models, but we dont.

 

But if all it took to make our own clothes was to download a file and push a few buttons on a printer, I think quite a few might.

 

 

There is also a 3D Pancake Printer - http://www.pancakebot.com/

Doesn't mean that IHOP or Waffle House are going out of business either

 

Pancakes are much easier to make than miniatures. 

[Space Truckin]

I don't think this will be an issue for GW.

People can make their own clothes, but we don't.

We can make our own sandwich in the morning but we still get stuff from the Deli shops, etc, etc.

We can sculpt our own models, but we dont.

But if all it took to make our own clothes was to download a file and push a few buttons on a printer, I think quite a few might.

There is also a 3D Pancake Printer - http://www.pancakebot.com/

Doesn't mean that IHOP or Waffle House are going out of business either

Pancakes are much easier to make than miniatures.

I can't make miniatures or pancakes.

[paulJam]

I can't make miniatures or pancakes.

then you clearly need a pancakebot .

is it sad that a world that contains pancakebots makes me think that perhaps we deserve warp storms and grimdark pancakes ?