Void Shields or Skyshield...

[Spear of Achilles]

A tough call guys...running Elysians with lots of flyers + Dark Angels allies. I want to use a Culexis assassin in a flyer to over psyker armies like the Cabal at an upcoming tourney. Do I take 3 void shields which block grav and at least 3 battlecannon type shots (and can also cover some Ravenwing Strike Force allied landspeeders if I don't want to ravenwing deepstrike them in turn 2). The issue with that is I might scatter my deepstriking turn 1 (Elysian valks can do that) valk transport flyer out of the assassin's walk range...or even worse out of the void coverage. OR, do I take a cheaper Sky shield with 'Ready for Take Off' where I can start the flyer on the shield with 4+ invuln and the assassin just walks right on...the issue here is I still need to stop battlecannon hits on 4+ invuln, the flyer can only skim its first turn, and grav will be able to hit me from a droppod Cent squad, for example....The skyshield could also easily fit the speeders for 4+ invulns. I can also land no-scatter on the shield with the valk turn 1 if I go second. I suppose shield. I can negate some drop pod or battlecannon shots by landing on it after they go if I go second. Opinions?

Edit: This tourney allows the Culexis's bubble to work from within transports. I also have an inquisitor with servos keeping bark-stars from scout moving, so the valk probably wont get charged turn 2

[Shamansky]

Elysians can take tracking beacon to prevent deep strike scatter for their units. It doesn't work for allies but still good for combat drop.

[duz_]

You might want to check the draft FAQs.

 

GW nerfed the VSG rules a lot including it being immune to melta and grav.

 

Just for a long term POV.

[Jacinda]

You might want to check the draft FAQs.

 

GW nerfed the VSG rules a lot including it being immune to melta and grav.

 

Just for a long term POV.

I believe they also said Culexis assassins in a flyer do not effect psykers on the ground.

[duz_]

Yes that too

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Also, the FAQ says that you can't embark on a battle brother's transport at deployment. So You can't start a Culexixs in a valkyrie/vendetta anyway.

[duz_]

This thread is full of broken dreams. We are terrible people...

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I also hate to further burst bubbles, but Elysian Valks cannot Deep Strike. They must enter from your table edge. Unless you can point me to where it says they can deep strike. If you are referring to what's inside, well, a unit does not confer deep strike onto it's transport, specifically stated in the rule book, and I have not seen anywhere in the FAQ, anything that reverses that.

 

Also, Combat drop specifically refers to Valkyries, Drop Sentinels and Sentry guns, entering from reserves on turn 1. You can only bring in half (I'd assume rounding up in the case of odd numbers).

 

Also, if you were going to take a transport to put a culexis in, I'd make it a vendetta, and I'd take the skyshield. You said that the tournament is allowing the culexis bubble to affect models on the ground (which since 40k has no verticality, we don't know what altitude the flyers are really at, and since Valkyries and Vendettas are akin to modern helicopter transports, I'd assume a 250-1000ft altitude for combat operations).

[Shamansky]

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I guess you could interpret that to mean deep striking valkyries. I'd not be opposed to it. Here's where I get hung up, how can you deep strike something that doesn't have the rule?

 

That's really all I was getting at. If the TO, or your opponent is cool with it, go for it. I'd certainly not complain about using it, or heck even facing it. Not like Elysians are really tremendously difficult to beat (I know they can be, especially to an unprepared opponent).

[duz_]

Yep that seems pretty straight forward deep striking valks pretty awesome

 

There's formations that let SM Storm Ravens do it and they don't have the rule native

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

There's formations that let SM Storm Ravens do it and they don't have the rule native

That's certainly true. Like I said, I'm not opposed to the idea...

[HenricusTyranicus]

I thought the reasoning went like this: If a flyer hovers, it is treated exactly like a fast skimmer. Skimmers have deepstrike. Ergo, flyers can deepstrike if they come in hovering. Not very familiar with flyer rules though, could be mistaken. 

[Shamansky]

Why do we need any reasoning here? Rule states here that units are deploying using deep strike rule. So all we need here is the rule of deep strike. Doesn't matter if Valk has it or not. I don't have a rule book around right now so i can't say in what mode should those valks be deployed, but they come anywhere on the table and should scatter as any other deep tsriking unit if they are out of tracking beacon or augur array non-scatter bubble.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I thought the reasoning went like this: If a flyer hovers, it is treated exactly like a fast skimmer. Skimmers have deepstrike. Ergo, flyers can deepstrike if they come in hovering. Not very familiar with flyer rules though, could be mistaken. 

That seems like some stretched logic. That would only work for flyers with the hover type. Besides, there are examples of flyers that have the deep strike USR, like the thunderbolt, lightning, and avenger.

 

 

Why do we need any reasoning here? Rule states here that units are deploying using deep strike rule. So all we need here is the rule of deep strike. Doesn't matter if Valk has it or not. I don't have a rule book around right now so i can't say in what mode should those valks be deployed, but they come anywhere on the table and should scatter as any other deep tsriking unit if they are out of tracking beacon or augur array non-scatter bubble.

It does state that. And It doesn't say if able. I think you're right, from a RAI perspective. I even like the idea, and acknowledge that I've been playing it wrong. I am, however, playing devil's advocate here. Because a rules lawyer could construe that to take away the advantage that provides. I'm bringing it up because half of the units eligible for Combat drop, have the Deep Strike USR, while the other half do not. That leaves room for interpretation and misunderstanding.

 

Anyway, I'd rather not derail this thread any further. I'll acknowledge that Combat Dropping Valks enter by deep strike.

[Shamansky]

Thet's going to be the last derail from me in that direction.

Rule 'Hover' states that if a flyer has hover you must declare the type of movement zoom or hover before moving form reserves. That also means for me that you can choose the type.

Some people say that if a flyer deep strikes in zoom mode it must crash and burn immediately as long as it has not moved 18", but 'Deep Strike' rule states that a vehicle coming from deep strike reserves is considered as having moved at its' combat speed which is 18" for zooming flyer. so i think both types hover and zoom are legal for Valkyrie coming in by deep strike. The controlling player just needs to declare type of  movement and then scatter it if nothing prevents that. And dangerous terrain tests won't be needed to pass by zooming flyer as long as the rule book sais that a zooming flyer doesn't have to take dangerous terrain test even if it starts/stops over difficult, dangerous or impassable terrain.

 

And now please forgive my Black Templar past because "Where there is uncertainty, I shall bring light..."

[duz_]

I thought the reasoning went like this: If a flyer hovers, it is treated exactly like a fast skimmer. Skimmers have deepstrike. Ergo, flyers can deepstrike if they come in hovering. Not very familiar with flyer rules though, could be mistaken. 

 

Where does it say skimmers have DS?

[Spear of Achilles]

Also the Avenger has deep-strike but it has no hover mode.  You can choose either [Edit: if your a flyer with skimmer option]. The Valk in the Elysian rulebook has 'Combat Drop' listed as an ability; ergo, Deepstrike as explained in combat drop army rule.

[Spear of Achilles]

Ulrik, I'm aware of not starting in a battlebrother transport. That's the whole idea of Skyshield + ready for take off....

[Spear of Achilles]

Shamansky, where are you getting that the tracking beacon won't help battlebrothers? Tracking Beacon says 'friendly units', not 'Other Elysian units'. The basic rules allow equipment that affects things like reserves, etc to work for battlebrothers.

[Shamansky]

as far as i remember it sais friendly units taken from the same list. augur array rule sais friendly units not specifying anything. 

damn! my bad. that was 'Iron Discipline' 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Ulrik, I'm aware of not starting in a battlebrother transport. That's the whole idea of Skyshield + ready for take off....

Just making sure. Even though the FAQ's are drafts and have been out for a while, it's still not a certainty that everyone is familiar with them. I'm still not, and I'm also not totally sold on them either, and to be honest, I have that prerogative as I'm not a tournament player.