General Custodes Discussion

[Lagrath]

I haven't read HH books. Why are Custodes so much better than space marines? You would think that space marine are the pinnacle of humanity, save the primarchs being offshoots of the Emperor.

 

++Thread has been split from the N&R topic concerning the new Custodes plastics++

Edited September 18, 2016 by Olis
Topic split

[Soldier of Dorn]

I haven't read HH books. Why are Custodes so much better than space marines? You would think that space marine are the pinnacle of humanity, save the primarchs being offshoots of the Emperor.

They just... are. They're effectively a halfway point between the primarchs and the Astartes. Someone else can probably explain it better than I.

[Scribe]

I haven't read HH books. Why are Custodes so much better than space marines? You would think that space marine are the pinnacle of humanity, save the primarchs being offshoots of the Emperor.

The marines are mass produced, custodes are hand crafted.

[Olis]

I haven't read HH books. Why are Custodes so much better than space marines? You would think that space marine are the pinnacle of humanity, save the primarchs being offshoots of the Emperor.

 

The Custodes are a seperate genetic project to the Astartes - they are much better at working alone and make ideal bodyguard units. Problem is, if you pitch Custodes against Astartes, the Astartes have the numbers and teamwork element to overcome Custodes. That and the fact Custodes, traditionally have always had low numbers. Of course, low numbers implies higher quality so that is probably where the initial assumption comes from, let alone their depiction in The First Heretic.  

[Demus Ragnok]

Ninja'd. Carry on. Edited September 17, 2016 by Demus Ragnok

[Blindhamster]

The difference between a marine and custodes is:

 

A marine is mass produced and built to fight as groups.

 

Each custodes is supposed to be given more careful biological upgrades, and built to be the pinnacle of solo warriors.

 

My favourite description of the difference is in the first heretic where marines are described as a pack of wolves. And custodes are described as Lion's. Individually they'll out match all but the very best the Astartes have to offer, but they don't really work as units in the same way.

 

All the ninja... again

Edited September 17, 2016 by Blindhamster

[01RTB01]

I haven't read HH books. Why are Custodes so much better than space marines? You would think that space marine are the pinnacle of humanity, save the primarchs being offshoots of the Emperor.

Custodes are individually crafted whereas the space marines are mass produced - differing roles I believe is the why

 

 

SO MANY NINJAS!!!

Edited September 17, 2016 by 01RTB01

[Trevak Dal]

 

I haven't read HH books. Why are Custodes so much better than space marines? You would think that space marine are the pinnacle of humanity, save the primarchs being offshoots of the Emperor.

They just... are. They're effectively a halfway point between the primarchs and the Astartes. Someone else can probably explain it better than I.

Here is a picture from Halo 4.

 

https://goo.gl/images/JzHToH

 

Master Chief (The Green one) is a Spartan 2. The woman Commander Palmer, is a Spartan 4.

 

In the Warhammer universe, Custodates are like Spartan 2s. Thunder Warriors are comparable to spartan 3s, more numerous but not quite Production line.

 

Astartes using the primarchs geneseed technology allows for a Production Line super soldier that bridges the gap between the best that a human can be made to be (Assassins) and mass numbers for intensive combat (Spartan 4s).

 

Astartes are a balance between quality (Custodates) and Quantity.

 

The War Hounds beat the rebellious Thunder Warriors...at a horrific cost (I would like to have seen how say, the Ultramarines or Dark Angels would have handled it as they were less axe crazy) but they won out because they had more guys.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Trevak Dal

[Wispy]

The difference between a marine and custodes is:

 

A marine is mass produced and built to fight as groups.

 

Each custodes is supposed to be given more careful biological upgrades, and built to be the pinnacle of solo warriors.

 

My favourite description of the difference is in the first heretic where marines are described as a pack of wolves. And custodes are described as Lion's. Individually they'll out match all but the very best the Astartes have to offer, but they don't really work as units in the same way.

 

All the ninja... again

Edited September 17, 2016 by Wispy

[Ishagu]

The whole Tactics things is relatively recent fluff and probably just a way to distinguish them from Marines.

 

In other fluff they are often described as fighting together.

 

They get their geneseed directly from the Emperor, correct?

[Scribe]

Rumoured, I thought they were crafted by the Emp, but the gene seed thing I think us GKs.

[Olis]

They get their geneseed directly from the Emperor, correct?

 

I suspect, as the fluff doesn't specifically use the term "geneseed" in relation to Custodes, it could be possible they don't use geneseeds. Sure, the Emperor's own genome is used in the process somewhere but what the process is and how each Custodes is enhanced could be very similar to Astartes or entirely different. 

[God-Potato of Mankind]

I cant remember where I read it (Praetorian maybe) but the Custodes are made using the same science that made the Primarchs. So direct creation with no geneseed I guess.

 

Marines used the science developed from Primarchs (geneseed) so they are not as "direct" to the "source" of whatever funky genetic/warp science the Emperor used first.

Edited September 17, 2016 by The God-Potato of Mankind

[Blindhamster]

 

The difference between a marine and custodes is:

 

A marine is mass produced and built to fight as groups.

 

Each custodes is supposed to be given more careful biological upgrades, and built to be the pinnacle of solo warriors.

 

My favourite description of the difference is in the first heretic where marines are described as a pack of wolves. And custodes are described as Lion's. Individually they'll out match all but the very best the Astartes have to offer, but they don't really work as units in the same way.

 

All the ninja... again

[Wispy]

 

 

The difference between a marine and custodes is:

 

A marine is mass produced and built to fight as groups.

 

Each custodes is supposed to be given more careful biological upgrades, and built to be the pinnacle of solo warriors.

 

My favourite description of the difference is in the first heretic where marines are described as a pack of wolves. And custodes are described as Lion's. Individually they'll out match all but the very best the Astartes have to offer, but they don't really work as units in the same way.

 

All the ninja... again

Edited September 18, 2016 by Wispy

[Irbis]

 

Whilst true, male Lion's actually hunt alone. Once they have a pride they let the females hunt, as custodes are all male, I suppose it still sort of stands?

 

And yet, when you try to think of single predator, the idiom you want is 'lone wolf' not a lion. So, not really

[Olis]

Posts #1 through # 16 have been split from the original topic found HERE about plastic Custodes.

[Blindhamster]

 

 

Whilst true, male Lion's actually hunt alone. Once they have a pride they let the females hunt, as custodes are all male, I suppose it still sort of stands?

And yet, when you try to think of single predator, the idiom you want is 'lone wolf' not a lion. So, not really

I guess you should tell ADB that then?

[Bronze Beast in the Dark]

 

 

Whilst true, male Lion's actually hunt alone. Once they have a pride they let the females hunt, as custodes are all male, I suppose it still sort of stands?

 

And yet, when you try to think of single predator, the idiom you want is 'lone wolf' not a lion. So, not really

 

 

 

When I think of a lone wolf, I think of a pack animal that is unusual because it prefers solitude. I think Custodes are designed to work alone, so I dont see the lone wolf working as a description, because they are designed that way.

[Ishagu]

Their fluff described them as superior gene crafted soldiers. Each one took a long time and a huge ammount of resources to make, using different techniques from Marines.

 

They are closer to the Primarchs in terms of attributes but are missing a few key genes and modifications that the Primarchs had.

Edited September 18, 2016 by Ishagu

[Arkangilos]

I feel like people think to hard on the "fighting alone" vs "fighting in groups" thing. I think (but I could be wrong), that the intent was not to say the Custodians could not fight in groups, in fact I'm willing to bet that their squads operate just as well, if not better, than a squad of space marines. 

 

I think the intent of that statement was that they, being smaller in number, cannot rely on the larger clockwork of a military organization for strategies and tactics. That is to say that as a squad they are well honed, awesome, enemy slaying beasts. But they do not have the same platoon or company level efficiency of the astartes. They don't have that combined arms benefits or the same role capabilities. It's not a matter of working as a group and formations, it's a matter of scale based on size. The astartes clock is bigger and has more pieces to call upon, and so when one cog gets clogged, the machine can move to fix it. 

[Ishagu]

I simply expect them to have smaller squad composition. 1-5 for example.

[RikuEru]

Another question, according to Lexicanum, citing Collected Visions:
"After the confinement of the Emperor within the Golden Throne, the Custodes abandoned, among other things, the use of their armour, and their traditional colour of red was changed to black." - I assume this means banners, badges, icons, mantles, etc. that were red changed to black.

But in  this picture they wear black armor aswell. (So "abandoned, ..., the use of their armour,..." means they abandoned using GOLD armour?)

 

So, if someone - NOT ME - would want to paint them for 40k times... their armor would be black, not gold?
I ask because of reasons...

[Ishagu]

Gold with black trim.

 

They are the guardians of the Emperor and the Golden Throne so Gold would still be their primary colour.

[SpecialIssue]

I'm not sure where I got this thought from (maybe the fact that the 300 closest are called the 'Companions') but I've always regarded the relationship between the Custodes and the Emperor to be closer than with his sons, the Primarchs. This might have grown from the version of fluff where it was a Custode being flayed alive by Horus on the Vengeful Spirit which finally galvanized the Emperor into destroying Horus.

 

Like, the primarchs are dad's sons, with which he has varying relationships and hardly ever sees. But the custodes are dad's friends - the guys he's always around and which he chooses to keep close to him, his handcrafted confidants and bodyguards which have been with him since the start of the crusade. After all, the Emperor was so anguished after three of them died at Ullanor (?) that he had their names engraved onto his own armour.

 

And tbh, I've always thought that the same Custodes which guarded Big E during the Great Crusade are the same ones guarding his corpse 10,000 years later. Hidden behind their armour, rarely seen except as immovable sentries or unspeaking giants roaming through the palace, it's entirely possible they are immortal given that the process used to create them has always been described as being far more careful and difficult than the mass-produced Astartes. The secrets of their creation dying with Malcador and the Emperor, they are now irreplaceable even if the Imperium knew how to communicate with their leadership reliably. Gene-crafted and brainwashed to guard over the Emperor over all else, it explains their lack of intervention in Imperial politics, with any appointments of the Captain-General to one of the High Lord now largely used as a political tool, thanks to his almost guaranteed absenteeism.