General Custodes Discussion

[gideon stargreave]

@SpecialIssueAmmo, that is a seriously cool idea. I love that they could be immortal. Especially the 300, perhaps the rest of them are made the same way as marines (in 40k). 

 

 

Maybe, the Emperor actually speaks to them, but they are so insulated and ancient and cold they don't pass on his messages, maybe the emperor has gone insane with fury and grief, and they guard the Imperium from HIM. 

[Vesper]

Personally, I dislike how Custodes are depicted in First Heretic. The idea that the Emperor's most elite warriors and bodyguards aren't trained to fight in unison is laughable. I get it, Astartes are the protagonist of the HH series so everybody else gets downplayed, but come on. Sorry for going off topic...

 

Back on topic I hadn't recalled the bolter swords. Those are awesome! 

 

All of this halberd/spear/sword talk has me wondering if everyone has forgotten that the standard weapon for Astartes is a bolter, but no one complains when they see a space marine armed with a plasma gun, or melta gun, or las gun, or a squad full of storm shields and power swords, or a squad full of thunder hammers...

 

They are a military force, not only that but the Emperor's PERSONAL guard. They will have a vast arsenal.

 

 

Are the custodian a significant military force ?

 

Individually, they are fearsome warriors with a relatively (from what we know so far) varied arsenal, ranging from exotic weapons to jetbikes and tanks. We know they were few in numbers and that could be explained by the most obvious reasons : they may have been ill suited to Legion treatment, they may not be a cost effective investment on a bigger scale. That's for the in-universe explanation. In the real world of reality and real things, the idea is to have a super special kind of dude to protect the Emperor who needs protection because he ain't that unkillable actually.

 

Yet, the important thing is that they are few and are limited to protecting the Emperor and going on any special missions he decides to throw them at. Not as frontline soldiers like Thunder Warriors or Astartes, but as emissaries, as proof the Emperor's eye is on whatever he sends them to. So far, the fighting we saw from them went to prove one thing : they are really much like the pretorians. They guard the emperor against the people, assassins and carry his will in the city. But when a freaking roman legion enters Rome, they just don't stand a chance. Because they aren't meant, organized or even trained to deal with it. They were not meant for war, for even when the roman emperor went to battle in person, he did so at the head of his legions. And that may be the single one difference with the custodians. They sometimes went to battle alongside the Emperor. Were they doing most of the fighting ? Highly unlikely.

 

The Heresy made clear the custodians weren't supposed to fight symmetrical warfare. We still have to read Master of Mankind (which isn't my most anticipated book, to be honest, but I get why so many people want it) but when it came to Prospero or Terra, they were even if they had huge advantages (taking the Thousand Sons by surprise, betrayed by their Primarch, their fleet away... And having the defences of the imperial palace, a setting they are supposed to master better than any other) on both occurences, they died to Astartes and weren't decisive. Which is pretty normal, wars in the setting are won by huge ass tank formations, huge ass ships, huge ass armies. And the custodians are alien to all that.

 

In essence, they are the bodyguards of the Emperor. And I guess they're good at that since the Emperor wasn't assassinated by some random dude. But are they a weapon of war, a fearsome formation that would make Astartes quake in their power-armoured boots ? No.

 

 

At least, that's my take on them. Pre Master of Mankind.

Edited September 18, 2016 by Vesper

[rendingon1+]

...

In essence, they are the bodyguards of the Emperor. And I guess they're good at that since the Emperor wasn't assassinated by some random dude. But are they a weapon of war, a fearsome formation that would make Astartes quake in their power-armoured boots ? No.

...

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/ernie.gif

[AlphariusOmegon108]

 

 

 

...

In essence, they are the bodyguards of the Emperor. And I guess they're good at that since the Emperor wasn't assassinated by some random dude. But are they a weapon of war, a fearsome formation that would make Astartes quake in their power-armoured boots ? No.

...

 

*looks at text, jaw hits floor** I can't believe you just said that.... they are like... the most feared formation.. like... Legends across the legions, every astartes would crap their backpack full if they saw 1000 of them coming for them (As that is how many custodes there are)

 

[lokkorex]

 

...In essence, they are the bodyguards of the Emperor. And I guess they're good at that since the Emperor wasn't assassinated by some random dude. But are they a weapon of war, a fearsome formation that would make Astartes quake in their power-armoured boots ? No.

...

 

*looks at text, jaw hits floor** I can't believe you just said that.... they are like... the most feared formation.. like... Legends across the legions, every astartes would crap their backpack full if they saw 1000 of them coming for them (As that is how many custodes there are)

Didn't like 10,000 custodes accompany the emperor to save some legions asses from orks during the great crusade, with only a total of three dying during the entire engagement? Granted a few must have died during the siege if terra. Edited September 18, 2016 by lokkorex

[AlphariusOmegon108]

1000

[lokkorex]

1000

I stand corrected then.

[Black Cohort]

I was pretty sure that there are 10k custodes, at least in 30k.

[Terminus]

Vesper is 100% correct about the capability of Custodes, not sure why everyone is so up-in-arms about it. People seem to think Custodians are borderline Primarchs (and no, the Valdor/Horus duel was never published anywhere ever and no one has a reference for that supposed event).

 

Anyway, I'll be a bit disappointed if the box is 2 characters, 30 MkIII marines, 5 Tartaros and 5 Custodes.  I am still suspicious of those MkIII knee joints in plastic, have no use for Bjorn or Tartaros terminators, and the Custodes may or may not look too much like Sigmarines.  I was really hoping for jump troops, but looks like that's not happening.

[Col.hertford]

Vesper is 100% correct about the capability of Custodes, not sure why everyone is so up-in-arms about it. People seem to think Custodians are borderline Primarchs (and no, the Valdor/Horus duel was never published anywhere ever and no one has a reference for that supposed event).

After the seminars and some talks with Alan Bligh at Warhammer fest I do think this view will be revised. His almost exact words were Custodes are to the emperor what space marines are to Primarchs. There is no doubt they are perfectly capable of battle, but are not generally sqaudered that way. There role is generally different, but they are capable of fighting (as they did at Ullanor) when required by Thier liege.

 

I love these models and I just hope the static pose is just a badly assembly job. Exciting times....

[rendingon1+]

Well, HH books are rather consistent about Custodian skill. Can't wait to see the models/rules.

[Cryptix]

 

I haven't read HH books. Why are Custodes so much better than space marines? You would think that space marine are the pinnacle of humanity, save the primarchs being offshoots of the Emperor.

The marines are mass produced, custodes are hand crafted.

 

One might even say they're...master-crafted 

[A D-B]

 

Vesper is 100% correct about the capability of Custodes, not sure why everyone is so up-in-arms about it. People seem to think Custodians are borderline Primarchs (and no, the Valdor/Horus duel was never published anywhere ever and no one has a reference for that supposed event).

After the seminars and some talks with Alan Bligh at Warhammer fest I do think this view will be revised. His almost exact words were Custodes are to the emperor what space marines are to Primarchs. There is no doubt they are perfectly capable of battle, but are not generally sqaudered that way. There role is generally different, but they are capable of fighting (as they did at Ullanor) when required by Thier liege.

 

Alan and I made sure our visions of the Custodians aligned neatly, if that's any reassurance/help/insight.

[dienekes96]

As long as you have a single injured and weakened Custodes kill every warp-spawned enemy with a look, then I will concur.

[Hfran Morkai]

Alan and I made sure our visions of the Custodians aligned neatly, if that's any reassurance/help/insight.

So Psykers right? ;)

[Terminus]

 

Vesper is 100% correct about the capability of Custodes, not sure why everyone is so up-in-arms about it. People seem to think Custodians are borderline Primarchs (and no, the Valdor/Horus duel was never published anywhere ever and no one has a reference for that supposed event).

After the seminars and some talks with Alan Bligh at Warhammer fest I do think this view will be revised. His almost exact words were Custodes are to the emperor what space marines are to Primarchs. There is no doubt they are perfectly capable of battle, but are not generally sqaudered that way. There role is generally different, but they are capable of fighting (as they did at Ullanor) when required by Thier liege.

 

I love these models and I just hope the static pose is just a badly assembly job. Exciting times....

They can't revise what has already been established in multiple FW and BL publications. They are total badasses, and it takes Gal Vorbak to bring them down, but a single Custodian likely couldn't carve his way through a tactical squad like Kurze does through elite terminators.

Edited September 18, 2016 by Terminus

[Arkangilos]

 

 

 

Vesper is 100% correct about the capability of Custodes, not sure why everyone is so up-in-arms about it. People seem to think Custodians are borderline Primarchs (and no, the Valdor/Horus duel was never published anywhere ever and no one has a reference for that supposed event).

After the seminars and some talks with Alan Bligh at Warhammer fest I do think this view will be revised. His almost exact words were Custodes are to the emperor what space marines are to Primarchs. There is no doubt they are perfectly capable of battle, but are not generally sqaudered that way. There role is generally different, but they are capable of fighting (as they did at Ullanor) when required by Thier liege.

 

I love these models and I just hope the static pose is just a badly assembly job. Exciting times....

They can't revise what has already been established in multiple FW and BL publications. They are total badasses, and it takes Gal Vorbak to bring them down, but a single Custodian likely couldn't carve his way through a tactical squad like Kurze does through elite terminators.

Of course not, but a squad could.

 

My whole point was that their shortcoming wasn't in that they can't fight in groups. I think a squad of them will work just as well as a squad of legionnaires. So one squad v one squad would still go to the custodes.

 

It's when you get into the larger organizations (so a company has more cohesion and support amongst the astartes) that they would fail.

 

But this got me wondering. Previously we seem to think of them more as the praetorian guard, but what if that's wrong? What if they were more like Lictors of Rome's magistrates?

[jeffersonian000]

Thunder Warriors were the end product of the Emperor's attempt the mass produce genetically enhanced super soldiers, which were effectively a dead end due to unpredictable spontaneous mortality combined with hard to control rage.

 

Custodes were a different track of enhanced super soldier that used a different process than the Thunder Warriors that was more stable and superior, but also slower to produce. Much, much slower, like too slow to be useful. The Primarchs were the end product of this track.

 

Astartes were the final product, and compromise between over-revved Thunder Warriors and hand crafted Custodes, using a third production method that lended itself to mass production on a scale orders of magnitude greator than used in any of the Emperor's previous projects. Thunder Warriors were vastly superior to Astartes, but too flawed to be sustainable. Custodes are individually superior to Astartes, but lack numbers. Astartes are the compromise that achieves the goals of quantity and quality at the same time.

 

SJ

[Arkangilos]

Thunder Warriors were the end product of the Emperor's attempt the mass produce genetically enhanced super soldiers, which were effectively a dead end due to unpredictable spontaneous mortality combined with hard to control rage.

 

Custodes were a different track of enhanced super soldier that used a different process than the Thunder Warriors that was more stable and superior, but also slower to produce. Much, much slower, like too slow to be useful. The Primarchs were the end product of this track.

 

Astartes were the final product, and compromise between over-revved Thunder Warriors and hand crafted Custodes, using a third production method that lended itself to mass production on a scale orders of magnitude greator than used in any of the Emperor's previous projects. Thunder Warriors were vastly superior to Astartes, but too flawed to be sustainable. Custodes are individually superior to Astartes, but lack numbers. Astartes are the compromise that achieves the goals of quantity and quality at the same time.

 

SJ

... agreed...

[Terminus]

One of the recent books (Vengeful Spirit, I think), states that the Emperor totally jacked his Astartes cloning technology from these not-Mechanicum tech priests.  Thunder Warriors/Custodians were probably his own experiments, but he couldn't get the balance just right.  To say that Custodes are on the same research track as Primarchs would imply that there is some demonic shenanigans in their creation.  The Astartes Corax was able to cook-up with the Emperor's final formula (plus some secret Chaos hot sauce added to the mix) produced far superior specimens in a fraction of the time a normal implantation would take.  It could very well be the Emperor had his own BBQ Chaos recipe that took longer to cook but didn't result in freakish mutants.

 

 

Sorry for all the food references, there's a BBQ taco truck outside the office today and the yummy smells are overwhelming. Argh! Tacos! The real Primordial Truth!

[Ishagu]

This idea that the Emperor created the Primarchs by colluding with Chaos is pure hokum.

 

I have no doubt that he used his own incredible psychic abilities to wield the warp in the creation of their souls, but he did not barter with the dark Gods.

[Terminus]

Collusion, maybe not, but definitely some kind of daemon binding going on there, since it's undisputable that they are at least partially Warp creatures (see Fulgrim's incessant monologuing on this point).  The Word Bearers get really really good at this sort of thing later on (in Talon of Horus they took a massive demon and split it among 20 Justaerin, giving them all possessed powers and a low level telepathic link without any drawbacks of being possessed).

[Runefyre]

But do warp creatures have to be daemons? You'd think there are other lesser known (and maybe less malefic?) warp entities floating around in there.

 

I don't see why Big E couldn't have the strength to "purify" some warp energy to use in his tinkering.

[Ishagu]

The warp was being channeled by psychic beings long before Chaos was around.

[Runefyre]

The warp was being channeled by psychic beings long before Chaos was around.

Interesting, what books/sources are there to read about that? The "Ancient Times" of warhammer if you will.