Rule Clarification

[Meps]

Hi,
 

In the infantry Squad section of the AM codex, it states

"The entire squad may take krak grenades... 'x'pts/model"

 

the Veteran entry however states
 

"The Squad may take krak grenades... 'xx' points"

 

Special weapon squads states

"The Entire squad may take krak grenades 'x' pts

 

 

This leads me to believe that in infantry squads, I could for example give only 5 men krak grenades, and leave 5 without and charge the appropriate points per model. Otherwise i see no reason not to just state a static points cost for krak grenades like on the veteran or SWS entries.

Thoughts?

[Quixus]

"The entire squad may take krak grenades... 'x'pts/model" - that's all or nothing, but the overall cost is based on the number of models, because the number of models is variable.

"The Squad may take krak grenades... 'xx' points" - everybody gets them, for a fixed cost.

 

"The Entire squad may take krak grenades 'x' pts - again all or nothing for a fixed cost.

 

The number of models in the latter two squads is fixed, so giving a fixed number makes things easier. If you divide those numbers by the number of models in the squad, you get the same cost per model as in the Infantry Squad.

[Meps]

This can't be correct simply becaue squad size isn't variable

 

1) Infantry Squad size isn't variable. its fixed 9 men and 1 sgt. 
- Even if you combine squads, you make this decision before you roll for your warlord trait meaning you could have 1 squad with 1 squad without and combine them. At this point your list has already been declared so you cant change to give them all krak. So the rule doesn't apply to combining squads in anyway.

 

- The only thing that changes the squad size is if you take a heavy weapon team. Then it technically becomes 9 men, meaning it would cost you 9 points to give everybody krak grenades instead of 10. However, this conflicts with the veterans entry where the same upgrade is possible but it still costs you the full 10 points.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

You're getting hung up on a RAW vs RAI argument. It's pretty clear that the intent is the same for all units taking krak grenades. It may be written funky, but it's an all or nothing upgrade. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone that would see it any other way, for a couple of reasons:

 

1) denoting who gets grenades would be a miniscule detail

2) keeping track of such minutiae gets tiresome

3) you'll end up forgetting who actually got the grenades.

 

So it's easier to just accept that it's a squad upgrade and move on.

 

Also, on a technicality, Heavy weapons cost you two models out of the squad not one. So 9 men (excluding the sergeant) goes down to 7 men if you add a heavy weapons team. Also, Adding special weapons technically decreases the number of guardsmen in an infantry squad, as does adding a vox caster.

 

the unit then becomes:

1 Sgt

1 Guardsman w/vox caster

1 Guardsman w/special weapon

1 Heavy Weapons Team (heavy weapon and loader, counts as 2 models)

5 Guardsmen

 

Totaling 10 models. It's nit picking, but isn't that what you're doing?

[Meps]

I don't think I was nit picking. Something didn't make sense and I was trying to make sense of it.

A heavy weapons team counts as 1 model making the unit 9 models so the upgrade costing 9 points. This makes sense no nit picking. It was the only explanation for the wording that made sense. I questioned this because veterans have the same upgrade options but worded differently.

If this was not the the solution I thought my original understanding was correct.
 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

The wording is a bit wonky, but the intent is clear. It's a whole squad upgrade.

 

Also, as of the current book, a heavy weapons team counts as 2 models, not 1. It takes 2 guardsmen/veterans per heavy weapon team. It's not terribly relevant to the rule, but it is important. I don't have a codex in front of me, but I know I'm right.

[Jacinda]

So if a heavy weapons team takes a S7 hit it is not removed since it counts as 2 models?  If a flamer template is over the HWT, does it cause 2 hits?

I don't see it.  A HW team is 1 model.  Yes you replace two guardsmen for 1 HWT but it is only one model. 

[Teetengee]

Yeah, HWT have been one model for a while now. (Which does funny things in assaults and with templates).

[Meps]

Exactly,

I agree the RAW indicates the whole squad must take Krak grenades.

I think this does however mean that as 1 HWT is 1 model meaning the squad now consists of 9 model. There go for the entire squad to take krak grenades at 1 points per model the cost is 9 points.

Veterans costs a flat out 10 regardless of squad HWT due to how it is worded.

Yes it seems like a small point but as somebody who squeezes in boltguns here and there that 1 point can matter :)

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I long for the old days when things were simpler. I also went and found the rules, and I don't know where I got that notion. You are correct, it counts as a single model, with the bulky special rule, and it doubles the base attacks and wounds.

 

This whole thread makes me hate the current codex that much more...

[Teetengee]

I long for the old days when things were simpler. I also went and found the rules, and I don't know where I got that notion. You are correct, it counts as a single model, with the bulky special rule, and it doubles the base attacks and wounds.

 

This whole thread makes me hate the current codex that much more...

I remember that rule change actually. It struck me as a somewhat elegant way of dealing with the two models carrying one weapon (what if one dies???) issue, although it does have some weird abstractions. The old rules did wound assignment differently, so previously it would only rarely come up.

[WarriorFish]

Exactly,

I agree the RAW indicates the whole squad must take Krak grenades.

I think this does however mean that as 1 HWT is 1 model meaning the squad now consists of 9 model. There go for the entire squad to take krak grenades at 1 points per model the cost is 9 points.

Veterans costs a flat out 10 regardless of squad HWT due to how it is worded.

Yes it seems like a small point but as somebody who squeezes in boltguns here and there that 1 point can matter

As I don't buy kraks (and rarely HWTS for Infantry) I've never had to come across this, but this looks like the exact reason. Nice that the nature of HWTs - usually a disadvantage - can work in our favour! :P