Let's talk about Angels of Caliban by Gav Thorpe

[FerociousBeast]

I'm shocked--shocked!--to see no thread on Angels of Caliban, the most recent Dark Angels novel by Gav Thorpe.

 

It goes without saying, but spoilers will abound in this post and I'm sure in the posts to follow.

 

A brief, mostly spoiler-free summary (I'm assuming you're fairly up to date with the goings on in Imperium Secundus):

 

 

The Horus Heresy continues and Dark Angels on Caliban and Imperium Secundus continue to try to find their place in things. On Macragge, the Lion attempts to protect the new Emperor from the devious Konrad Curze, and comes in conflict with Roboute Guilliman in the way he goes about it, while on Caliban, what appears to be a united front among those who one day will become the Fallen reveals itself to be many small alliances of convenience, weakened by conflicting agendas and mutual distrust.

 

(Corswain and another major battlegroup of the First Legion battle with the Death Guard somewhere in the galaxy, but we see almost none of it.)

 

 

My spoiler-free thoughts, in no particular order:

• I went into this expecting to dislike it, since in general I'm not a fan of where Gav has been taking the Unforgiven.
• But, against expectations, I found it not only not offensive, but actually fairly well written.
• Unfortunately, it suffers from the same problem that Fallen Angels did: having two completely separate stories shoehorned into one novel. The events on Caliban and the events on Macragge have nothing to do with each other. The only unifying factor is the theme of allegiance and where it should be placed. It would have been better to have focused on one story or the other for the novel, and deal with the other in a short story or novella.
• The characters on Caliban are surprisingly interesting and well written. Except for Luther, unfortunately, the major schemers all get pretty good air time and we really see what their differences are and how their goals are conflicting.
• Conversely, I think Gav gets the Lion wrong, and has done so from the beginning. The Lion is described in older fluff material as analytical, taciturn, slow to anger but unstoppable when aroused. This Lion is not above verbal argumentation and seems to get angry pretty darn easily. He also does one particularly rash thing which belies his supposed analytical nature.
• There are some less convincing moments in the novel. The way Luther and Zahariel are able to sway erstwhile loyal Dark Angels to their cause over the course of one banquet speech was very unconvincing. And not only to sway the battle brothers, but to have them SPOILER... Yeah, I don't believe it.
• I also find Guilliman's protests against the Lion's tactics against the rebels on Macragge unconvincing. Unless it's due to simple feelings of bias or love for his home world, Space Marine can and do do terrible things to uncompliant worlds and populations, so Guilliman's objections to the Lion's attack on the rebels of Macragge are out of place.
• The trial scene is just stupid.
• Not a heck of a lot of fighting, other than the final showdown between the Lion and Curze. Mostly a lot of talky talky and schemey schemey. I'm okay with this, though, since for the most part it's done fairly well.

[Guest]

................

[FerociousBeast]

We don't, actually. I checked first.

[Guest]

......................

[Brother dean]

It's Joe's (march10k) fault but we've been through this on facebook..
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092168414174862/

It is also not Gav's writing.  Dan Abnett had it partly written to Alan Bligh's outline and then it got handed to Gav to finish cause Dan is overloaded.

Edit:  I was excited about it until it got handed to Gav.  No I havent read it yet.  I am waiting for MMPB.

[FerociousBeast]

Um, Facebook? Poor form chaps!

 

Can we talk about the novel and not about other sites and ways the novel has been discussed? G'lord.

[Brother dean]

I know it is poor form, and poor for the Forum but I had to know...  (and I still don't, not really...)

Oh, I have so many questions...  Is Sevatar still in the brig?  How'd that sword get broke...  How's Cruze get away in the future to be killed elsewhere?  

Again, havent read it yet...
 

[Guest]

 ...............

[Terminus]

It's Joe's (march10k) fault but we've been through this on facebook..

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092168414174862/

It is also not Gav's writing.  Dan Abnett had it partly written to Alan Bligh's outline and then it got handed to Gav to finish cause Dan is overloaded.

 

Edit:  I was excited about it until it got handed to Gav.  No I havent read it yet.  I am waiting for MMPB.

This is interesting background info, and probably why the novel overall isn't as awful as everything else Gav Thorpe touches.  I am not surprised he got the Lion wrong, his Corax is equally terrible.

 

Regarding Old Blue complaining about Old Green's approach, didn't the Lion just want to nuke it all from orbit and Guilliman was like "dude that's my planet"?

[Othniel's Blade]

The ouroborous and

corruption of Zahariel et cie

seemed to be written far too casually and occurred too quickly for my liking. I understood the intent, but it didn't quite add up. Perhaps it's been too long since I read the last two Angels' novels.

[Flint13]

I just want two things to go on record.

 

1.) Kurze was absolutely hilarious, and hands down the best part of the book for me. Even in the Lion's super juvenile 'victory' fight towards the end, Kurze was the perfect Nightlord. It was like the victory on Calth for the Word Bearers x100, and it was spectacular. Like Beast mentioned in the first post, I'm surprised I liked it as much as I did.

 

But the scene at the end where Kurze single handedly

destroys Imperium Secundus and pushes the Lion away from his brothers and on the path that marks him as a possible traitor all the way until 'present' day is phenomenal. And he does it all while cuffed and undergoing the spectacle of the trial his brothers insisted on. Guess that backfired a bit for the Triumverate :lol:

 

 

2.) I curious why the Dark Angels continued to attempt to hunt Kurze by throwing single squads into dimly lit, enclosed spaces for so long before trying the whole Phosphex bombardment deal.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

 

Kurze has a huge plot armor. It's something that always nagged me in the books. I get it that he only dies to M'shen, but they make every Primarch that faces Kurze a keystone cop.  As for DA being marked as traitors: Loyalty is it's own reward.

 

[Flint13]

Plot armor, for sure. I'll 100% agree that it's a little frustrating, and takes a bit away from the tension of a few key moments.

 

But from the second Kurze sets foot on Macragge, he's in his element. The loyalist Primarchs are essentially trying to track down a single being whos entire waking life has been spent hiding from authority and waging terrorist wars from the shadows. He brought the capitol of the 500 Worlds, three separate Primarchs and a countless number of military assets to a complete, grinding halt. For one guy. Admittedly a primarch, but still, one guy.

 

And the loyalists keep walking into dimly lit enclosed spaces! I feel like I can emphasize this last point enough.

 

Stop trying to fight Night Lords in the dark. What's Kurze's kill/death ratio up to now? :lol:

[Chaplain Lucifer]

 

But from the second Kurze sets foot on Macragge, he's in his element. The loyalist Primarchs are essentially trying to track down a single being whos entire waking life has been spent hiding from authority and waging terrorist wars from the shadows. He brought the capitol of the 500 Worlds, three separate Primarchs and a countless number of military assets to a complete, grinding halt. For one guy. Admittedly a primarch, but still, one guy.

 

 

Again, the huge plot armout giving a hand to Kurze. It's just OTT the way that they dumb down 3 Primarchs and two Legions in order to Kurze shine as the ultimate predator.

[Flint13]

I mean, it's Kurze's entire ballgame to hide from authority and make with terrorist wars.

 

Gulliman's strength is world building, Sanguinius's is as a charismatic figurehead. The Lion does have strengths as a hunter, but he had a bit of an issue tracking down Kurze when he only had a single ship, much less an entire planet to doodle around on.

[Augustus]

There was a discussion in the Black Library sub-forum. 

 

I didn't like it for the reasons FB outlined. 

The Lion shows none of what made the Lion cool IMO. 

Since he is always angry all the time. Always lashing out. The final showdown on caliban will be dimmed.

I mean, personally I always imagined the duel at Dulan with the Lion saying nothing only seething with rage deep down. 

The Dark Angels are now Keystone cops. They march around the GALAXY searching for Curze. Only for cure to: Kill loads of Marines, Wreck the plans of Primarchs etc. 

Thats my problem with Chaos guys in general. With Curze, they could have show something to make us feel for him. Instead all he does is win. None of his plans go awry. His path is already set. So, whats the point? He's a plot device now instead of an interesting character. When Curze appears in the books its like "ok, everything goes to poop and he suffers no setbacks."

 

The state of the DA in fiction is pretty bad right now. The only seriously good stuff I've seen recently is that story by AD-B with Ragnar dueling the DA captain. If you haven't read it, please do.

[JJD]

The state of the DA in fiction is pretty bad right now. The only seriously good stuff I've seen recently is that story by AD-B with Ragnar dueling the DA captain. If you haven't read it, please do.

Which one is that. I'm going on holiday next week and could use something to read.

[Kasper_Hawser]

That particular book is simply titled Blackmane. I heard it wasn't very good from a Space Wolves perspective though, Ragnar basically came off as a hypocritical turd when he killed the DA champion when the duel was supposed to be First Blood.

 

As for black library writing issues about primarch, at least the 1st Legion wasn't demoted to needing help to kill Prospero. Right now, it seems not only was the Wolves aided by Custodes, Sisters of Silence, but a company of Sons of Horus too. And right after that, nearly getting killed by the Alpha Legion before being saved by you guys.

 

Not really Wright's fault though, in fact he did well to write Russ' internal agony of having fought the wrong fight in the wrong place and realizing the depth of his derpiness.

[Augustus]

See I didn't mind that Kasper.

 

I look at it like this: Ragnar is one of those rare individuals who are just born both amazing and lucky. So he was quickly promoted through the ranks. But he still hasn't been tempered. 

 

Read it. AD-B with a soft touch adds composure and depth to the 1st.

[Phoebus]

I'm shocked--shocked!--to see no thread on Angels of Caliban, the most recent Dark Angels novel by Gav Thorpe.

Let me put it this way.

 

I read Angels of Caliban.

 

I wasn't happy with it.

 

I started writing a book review on it.

 

I have since found myself mired in something threatening to run into a full-on paper about how the majority of the Dark Angels storyline in the Horus Heresy is hampered by what feels like contrived plot armor or author's fiat. I'm currently sitting at 3,800 words and can genuinely say I'm not even even halfway to what I want to rant about. At this point, I don't even know that anyone would be interested in reading my screed. Typing out my frustrations just feels like a kind of catharsis.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I would like to read that Phoebus. :) I think it'll mirror my own thoughts. DA do have their shinning moments in HH books, but tehy also have too Keystone Coppery written into them. I chalk it up to them being a poisonous chalice and put some salt (and pepper) into what I read.

[Guest]

Yeah count me in Phoebus.

[Brother dean]

Three please Phoebus.  The only author that does us justice in the HH has been AD-B...   I'm not sure Gav should be writing Marine fiction at all because most of his stories come out Keystone cop-ish.  But on the other hand, nobody else wants to write for us or Ravenguard.

[captain Angel]

I would love for take a look.

[DarKnight]

Would love to read what you have to say Phoebus, I think we would share a lot of the same thoughts. AD-B mentioned that he wishes the FW books came out first so the authors would have that framework to work within and I think every Legion, bust especially the First would've been greatly improved if that were the case. I've had 'Angels of Caliban' since the day it came out and I don't think I'm halfway through it yet. The entire idea of the "Imperium Secundus" is just absurd and misused IMO. The overdone descriptions of Legion wargear & equipment came off like a blaring commercial. The characterizations and motivations of the main actors are all convoluted and make little sense. Completely underwhelmed by this book.