Captain Idaho Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 So I have been rather successful in pushing for my gaming group to get into 40K, with more than 1 suggestion planted that they should get an army that can represent both a Legion AND play a 40K army... Unfortunately, there's myself who is dedicated to creating some of the Ultramarines Legion as my personal praetorians, but other guys are looking towards both Tyranids and Necrons, as well as 40K Chaos. Not a disaster in itself as the narrative still works in my head with the power of "imagination". My question to you is one of balance - will my opponents be cursing my name playing 30K against them? I am not the kind to take Super Heavies and Primarchs would be a big game with consent only. On the other hand, all that Formation malarkey looks like it would make life very difficult for an Age of Darkness player. I can handle the latter for the most part though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326144-marrying-40k-and-the-age-of-darkness/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noserenda Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 Played them together a lot and not had many problems, though that was just before all the formation madness began... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326144-marrying-40k-and-the-age-of-darkness/#findComment-4510853 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trydragon Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 From what i found with My local gaming groups it the 30K lists that have the issues VS 40K as with CAD and detachments and formations there list are more flexible, then 30K FoC's or thats what i found anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326144-marrying-40k-and-the-age-of-darkness/#findComment-4510865 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 The points values will have a massive effect too I've found, which, when combined with the CAD/formation crap that some armies can pull leads to a very lopsided game. The most success I've had with cross over games is to play a minimum of 2,000 points (my club usually rolls 1750/1850), no formations/detachment shenanigans, literally 1 force org. It also helps to have a discussion before hand about which units you both feel comfortable fielding. An Eldar opponent of mine didn't see any issues with tons of warp spiders, jetbikes and D barrage weapons but threw a hissy fit when I wanted to take Curze. Make sure you reach agreement on what is and isn't acceptable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326144-marrying-40k-and-the-age-of-darkness/#findComment-4510880 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 . An Eldar opponent of mine didn't see any issues with tons of warp spiders, jetbikes and D barrage weapons but threw a hissy fit when I wanted to take Curze. Make sure you reach agreement on what is and isn't acceptable. He sounds wonderful. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326144-marrying-40k-and-the-age-of-darkness/#findComment-4510882 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 . An Eldar opponent of mine didn't see any issues with tons of warp spiders, jetbikes and D barrage weapons but threw a hissy fit when I wanted to take Curze. Make sure you reach agreement on what is and isn't acceptable. He sounds wonderful. He was. Right up until my Typhon ate 10 bikes, a farsee and a couple of spiders. Then Curze hit his line and he became an utter delight Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326144-marrying-40k-and-the-age-of-darkness/#findComment-4510887 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted September 22, 2016 Author Share Posted September 22, 2016 Eldar players... pah. Anyway. Yes I am slightly worried about 40K formations ruining the game, though we could likely all play quite well just using the CAD. Obviously, GW needs to fix the game but in the meantime I think that would work as a fix. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326144-marrying-40k-and-the-age-of-darkness/#findComment-4510894 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 With marines it is literally a case of saying 1 CAD and that's it, No decurion, librarius conclave or 4 different chapter tactics trying to cheese it. For other armies it's different although orks/nids/crons I think would be fine when following that principle. Dark Eldar too to an extent. Eldar though, it's not just the stuff you get from the formations and everything it's also the psychic phase so capping the number of dice in the pool would be an option to look at it. I've yet to come up with a decent set up that balances the outright filth though Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326144-marrying-40k-and-the-age-of-darkness/#findComment-4511024 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol_Invictus Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 In the few games I've played against 40k armies (Orks, Eldar, and 40k SW) there was an awful lot of whining coming from the other side of the table but I'm running Ordo Reductor so might be a bit different for legion players. Of course they always complain about Eldar too so they may just have whiny natures... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326144-marrying-40k-and-the-age-of-darkness/#findComment-4511161 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 I'll preface this by saying that I have not played 30k against 40k. However I am familiar with 40k and how many of the armies play, and I am becoming familiar with the way some 30k armies play. 30k armies seem to have a large vehicle focus with lot's of simple infantry choices. 30k units don't seem as customize-able as their 40k counterparts, for instance it would seem that most basic (without RoW force org swapping shenanigans) troops choices cannot take special or heavy weapons to give them some extra punch. Weapon options are all or nothing. If we assume the opponent is using a CAD: With the Vehicle focus in 30k, Necrons may end up a powerful opponent. Granted 30k has a plethora of ways to kill vehicles, but not generally in the hands of basic troops (those that do, have some sort of downside). Tau mobility and access to haywire could prove to be a problem, as well as their vehicles all being skimmers could prove annoying, especially if given the ability take a 3+ jink. Eldar will present the biggest problem in that they have so much access to D weapons without taking superheavies or gargantuan creatures. That's manageable though, and their jetbike army shenanigans can be easily countered by legion jetbike shenanigans. Eldar's move shoot move shenanigans might prove annoying, but given the range and volume of fire that almost everything in 30k can produce many troops choice squads won't be able to get out of range, and will wither. Statistically, a full legion tactical squad should wipe out an eldar jetbike squad through sheer volume of fire. Daemons are used in 30k, and most armies are balanced to offer resistance to that codex. Most counters for daemons provide counters for other armies as well. Space Marines of all flavors might prove a tough nut to crack, but not impossible. They're smaller more elite versions of legion squads. In fact legions have more variety in units and thus a bit more tactical flexibility. Again, this all assumes that your opponent uses a CAD. If so they'll have access to many similar toys as you, which will make the balance much more comparable. If they use formations, you might be in for some trouble, but remember that the Legions have Rites Of War, which grant you extra rules or manipulate the force org chart to your advantage. Armies like Solar Auxilia might have a tougher time against 40k armies, given that they have no ability to take anti armor weapons on their troops choices. This can be worked around, namely in the form of the dracosan, which packs some very useful anti armor weapons. If some rules are imposed on the gaming group to balance things it could be a very fun experience. Rules like, you must have a primary detachment (of any type) and you may only take one allied detachment (of the allied detachment type). Also restricting any Lords of War choice (from the book) to 25% of the army (like in Age of Darkness) and beginning at 2000 points. This would mean an Eldar player would need to take 2000 points before he can run a wraithknight (regardless of the fact that in a formation it doesn't occupy a LoW slot, it's still a LoW choice...). I think that's exceedingly fair. Alternatively, you could just roll with the punches, and play your army against everything and adapt your tactics to suit the situation. Wraithknight spam? I'll take a detachment of 3 Questoris Knights, and take 3 wardens or styrix and then watch his stuff wither under the weight of AP3 fire, especially if he takes the d weapons, and doesn't take an invuln. If your opponent is willing, both of you could use the same FoC charts, either agree to play heresy era, or 40k era. I personally would love to see what an eldar player would come up with when restricted to AoD and AD... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326144-marrying-40k-and-the-age-of-darkness/#findComment-4511284 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted September 22, 2016 Author Share Posted September 22, 2016 Some good advice there. It's an escalation League so we're starting small and CAD. There will be a Necron, Tyranids and then either a Chaos Marines/stand in 30k force (possibly Black Shields). Though he might use Death Watch instead. Might have a 30K Space Wolf player but he's just as likely to go 40K. I know the guys like to play competitively but also have fun. A suggestion of sorts of "try to keep the Formations abuse to a minimum" should work - it's doubtful they'll go for an army of 6 different Codex books anyway. For myself, I'm going heavy infantry. Not the most powerful but hey, it's a fun theme (Revenants of Armatura ;) ) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326144-marrying-40k-and-the-age-of-darkness/#findComment-4511654 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 I don't think a 30k army scales well against 40k armies in general until you hit the 2250 point mark. I play a lot versus 40k armies and have always done well. I am pretty let my opponent bring whatever they want as long as it's battle forged. What is really important is to agree ahead of time how you will handle any disparity in rules. Everyone I have played so far is cool so there have never been any issues. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326144-marrying-40k-and-the-age-of-darkness/#findComment-4511676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cryptix Posted September 22, 2016 Share Posted September 22, 2016 I find everything is fine if you make them follow the same restriction as HH - only one dectachment + 1 allied + 1 fortification, only LOW at 2000 points and only 25% of your army (Make sure to double the Wraithknight's cost ) , only 1 formation, but to make it fair if they have a character LOW like Draigo or Imotekh (not the Avatar unless you're bringing your own Primarch), allow them to run Primarch's chosen as a way to get it into HQ, and let them have whatever constitutes for Terminators as troops if they do. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326144-marrying-40k-and-the-age-of-darkness/#findComment-4511782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 I find everything is fine if you make them follow the same restriction as HH - only one dectachment + 1 allied + 1 fortification, only LOW at 2000 points and only 25% of your army (Make sure to double the Wraithknight's cost ) , only 1 formation, but to make it fair if they have a character LOW like Draigo or Imotekh (not the Avatar unless you're bringing your own Primarch), allow them to run Primarch's chosen as a way to get it into HQ, and let them have whatever constitutes for Terminators as troops if they do. Well, for Grey Knights Terminators are already troops, so there's that, unless you're willing to let them take Paladins as troops (which would be awful and you should not allow that), but for necrons it would be swapping Lych Guard/Triarch Praetorians into the troops slot. Admittedly that's not terrible, as those wouldn't be the worst thing to face off against. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326144-marrying-40k-and-the-age-of-darkness/#findComment-4512000 Share on other sites More sharing options...
noigrim Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 If you plays vs 40k better forget about age of darkness limitations, combined arms (multiple) detachments are your friends Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326144-marrying-40k-and-the-age-of-darkness/#findComment-4512095 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 AoD actually doesn't have a bad FoC. Also, depending on what Army you use it can be a real plus. Having 3 HQ slots and 4 elites slots is actually pretty helpful since it lets you some more leeway, and means you might be able to use that allied detachment for something better. Its all going to depend on what you're doing. A 30k army should not have much in the way of problems dealing with tyranids, especially at lower points levels. 30k can usually handle the swarm pretty easily, though larger creatures might prove difficult at lower points levels. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326144-marrying-40k-and-the-age-of-darkness/#findComment-4512279 Share on other sites More sharing options...
noigrim Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 AoD actually doesn't have a bad FoC. Also, depending on what Army you use it can be a real plus. Having 3 HQ slots and 4 elites slots is actually pretty helpful since it lets you some more leeway, and means you might be able to use that allied detachment for something better. Its all going to depend on what you're doing. A 30k army should not have much in the way of problems dealing with tyranids, especially at lower points levels. 30k can usually handle the swarm pretty easily, though larger creatures might prove difficult at lower points levels. but you sacrifice LoW at 1500 (unless primarch's chosen that is) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326144-marrying-40k-and-the-age-of-darkness/#findComment-4512311 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 AoD actually doesn't have a bad FoC. Also, depending on what Army you use it can be a real plus. Having 3 HQ slots and 4 elites slots is actually pretty helpful since it lets you some more leeway, and means you might be able to use that allied detachment for something better. Its all going to depend on what you're doing. A 30k army should not have much in the way of problems dealing with tyranids, especially at lower points levels. 30k can usually handle the swarm pretty easily, though larger creatures might prove difficult at lower points levels. but you sacrifice LoW at 1500 (unless primarch's chosen that is) That's certainly true, but remember the balancing. Some Superheavies (which account for most, if not all, non-character Imperial Lords of War) can be taken by most HH armies in the Heavy Support slot. Which would require it's own mechanism to balance things out. IN the case of Knights, you can take a whole army of Knights and none of them are Lords of War. So, there's that counterpoint. 30k has it's own workarounds to those problems. Are you going to be able to field a baneblade chassis at 1500 points? No, but then, were you really going to? Legions Astartes have access to some of the most disgustingly lethal (sicaran) tanks in heavy support, and they aren't even superheavies. A Sicaran tank could absolutely eat a wraithknight in a couple of turns, two could make short work of a wraithknight. It's also completely possible to get 4 Predators and 5 Sicarans (without upgrades) in a 1500 point list, with the armored breakthrough RoW, which would easily eat a wraithknight, before it can get in range for it's D weapons. When you can spam 46 48" S7 AP4 shots, 30 of which are rending, I think you stand a chance. Also those same 30 rending shots can pen out AV14, and they ignore jink, which means that Eldar bike and wave serpent spam will cry. Sicarans are also fast, which means they can get into position quickly and dish out the damage. If you know how, Legions can bring the cheese. In that list you even have room for a couple of mounted min tac squads (10 bolter dudes). Any infantry that the opponent brought would wither under the fire the tanks can provide, and then there's the fury of the legion attack. Solar Auxilia might have a more difficult time, but they have a super heavy in the HS slot that can fire 2 ordnance blasts at once if properly equipped, and you can get 2 of those in at 1500 points, along with 2 demolisher equipped dracosans. Volkite from 2 squads can stack enough wounds on a wraithknight to statistically strip a couple of wounds at least. Not to mention you can also get 2 lasrifle sections with blast chargers into that same 1500 point list, which can put out 20 18" S6 AP6 heavy 1 shots each, which could also do a hefty amount of damage to a wraithknight. I realize that I'm using the wraithknight a lot in these examples, but it's pretty much agreed that the Wraithknight is the gold standard of cheese. I'm not saying that dealing with the wraithknight will be a cinch. What I am saying is that if that's what you're worried about as a LoW choice at 1500 points, which is probably the most likely, it's far from being a clinch victory for the opponent. I've brought Lords of War to games and they didn't do much at all, while the rest of the army did work. I've also had the rest of my army do nothing while my LoW did work. It's a mixed bag, and honestly, unless you're playing a super competitive tournament (most of which would disallow 30k armies, except local store tournaments, maybe), or your friendly games are super competitive tournament style lists (in which case you need to rethink your meta), the games should be friendly, and you should work out restrictions beforehand, if you feel that balance would be an issue. In the case of a local escalation league tournament, you'll be able to scale and build your lists to counter the things that you see your friends bringing. If the Tyranid player wants to bring a carnifex, maybe you should think about investing in some sources of heavy weapons. If the necron player is bringing lots of warriors or immortals, think about bringing more infantry, because vehicles will wilt against gauss. If the Marine player is investing in a full battle company, think about how you'll counter all those free transports, and figure out how you'll destroy them in one go, if he takes Iron Hands. 30k will scale much differently once you surpass the 2000 points mark. Lords of War open up for you with AoD, and that's going to mean you can start rolling out the heavy hitters. But then again there are also the alternate FoC's that 30k uses, like the Leviathan Detachment, which lets you take up to 3 Lords of war choices without restriction, and an allied detachment. Which means you'll have your own big nasties to use at low points. Using 30k rules there are workarounds, are they perfect, no, but hey, at least you'll have fun. Also, Nothing says you can't use the 30k FoC's with regular 40k rules. Take 2 AoD detachments, or an AoD and a Leviathan, the possibilities are numerous, just make sure your group is cool with it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326144-marrying-40k-and-the-age-of-darkness/#findComment-4512481 Share on other sites More sharing options...
noigrim Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 Typhons or warhounds at 1500 could come in very handy, you easily kill one unit per turn with them Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326144-marrying-40k-and-the-age-of-darkness/#findComment-4512924 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flint13 Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 One unit per turn and one friend every game. Good investment there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326144-marrying-40k-and-the-age-of-darkness/#findComment-4513063 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 Yeah agreed I never field a Typhon... it should have an eldar symbol on it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326144-marrying-40k-and-the-age-of-darkness/#findComment-4513085 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 Typhons aren't that bad at all! There's absolutely no balancing issues between 30 and 40k, especially with the armies you said your local players will be using. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326144-marrying-40k-and-the-age-of-darkness/#findComment-4513173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soldier of Dorn Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 Typhons are a beautiful beast... just one of several Super-heavies I want for my Fists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326144-marrying-40k-and-the-age-of-darkness/#findComment-4513185 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 At 1.5k, Typhons aren't that bad, no, but a Warhound like he's suggesting??? 4 96" S:D Large Blasts? Doesn't seem sporting to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326144-marrying-40k-and-the-age-of-darkness/#findComment-4513223 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted September 24, 2016 Share Posted September 24, 2016 I'm not particularly crazy about the idea of running superheavies at 1500 points. 1850-2000 sure, 2k+, most definitely. Personally at points levels below 1850, I think that superheavies end up costing too much of your army's total points, and are exceedingly difficult to destroy for most armies at those low point levels. Warhounds at 1500 points are most assuredly not something I'd do, ever, Unless my opponent was fielding a similar arrangement of lords of war. Oh, and in case it wasn't mentioned: The best reason to play 30k armies in 40k, is to get access to all the cool toys, like dracosans, sicarans, volkite, leviathan dreads and the like, without having to take special HQ's or not having them at all... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326144-marrying-40k-and-the-age-of-darkness/#findComment-4513245 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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