Genestealer Cults

[Teetengee]

Genestealer cults, that pesky human army with a xenos focus.

I was wondering if there could be a re-evaluation of whether they have a space here on the B and C after we see their full release and new codex. It might be clearly tied to nids, and therefore obviously not be for this board.

However, it looks like some of the models may be much more focused on their human nature, more on the rebellious underscum of humanity than the alien overlords. Particularly since it looks like most of their equipment and weaponry might be imperial in origin. In a sense, from a modelling perspective they may be more imperial subfaction than tyranid subfaction.

In any case, that all is dependent on the upcoming releases, but I just wanted to post it up here so that everyone could begin discussions.

[Scribe]

I'm for their inclusion, to me its a clearly human faction, that can ally with Xeno, much as CSM can ally with Daemon.

[Morovir]

Agreed, owing to the fact that like Genestealer Cults ally with Tyranids as Allies of Convenience, Chaos Space Marines can ally with Orks as Allies of Convenience, and the Imperium of Man can ally with Eldar as Allies of Convenience.

[deathspectersgt7]

They are Xenos in nature . And I do believe the decision has been made. But I will enjoy putting mine together.

[Sete]

And daemons have nothing human in nature and yet they are on the board.

 

Slanesh was created by the Eldar, so she/he is xenos in nature so not allowed in the board ;)

 

And according to the lore even untainted humans make part of the cults. Citizens from the lower social stratus of society that join the cult without knowing it's true purpose.

 

While tied to xenos it is an army mainly composed by Humans.

 

Just like chaos and lost and the damned are tied to daemons, yet make part of the board, The human part of the Cults should be allowed.

[Brother Casman]

I'll preface this with what I'm expecting to happen: I don't think we'll see Genestealer Cults added to the board.

 

I'll freely admit that this dividing line looks pretty arbitrary, but any dividing line is arbitrary. I see the B&C's focus as being essentially on the Armies of the Imperium, and the Armies of the Great Enemy. Since it appears that Genestealer Cults are of neither "faction", I expect we'll leave them as Xenos and leave them aside.

 

To illustrate why the dividing line is arbitrary, I've no doubt that we could find Frater who think we should exclude Daemons. We could probably find Frater who think we should exclude the Astra Militarum, the AdMech, and the Inquisition; going back to just Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines. We're nevertheless making our current setup work.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think the Genestealer Cults are really cool! I can't wait to see what more is coming. And I could be wrong in expecting things to stay the same. :) But remember, hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. ;)

[Olis]

Speaking as a Frater, not a Mod, I would rather we did not include the Genestealer Cults - they may live in the Imperium, but they certainly do not fight for it. Neither do they fight for Chaos. They are a Xenos Faction and thus do not deserve a place here. Don't get me wrong - I think they're really cool and the new stuff has me contemplating Xenos for the first time in a long time but, still, while they straddle the line between Xenos and Imperial, that's a little too much Xenos for regular B&C content, I believe. 

 

I do acknowledge that Daemons may feel somewhat of an anachronism here - currently they are included in the brief as an exception. It's likely that one of our Chaos Mods or Fraters can provide better reasoning than I can but, as a Faction, Chaos has Daemons. It just does. It has done since the beginning of 40k. Denying daemons to the Chaos community seems like we're punishing them because a specific substrata has gained a degree of attention from the Design Studio. However, equating Daemons (a Chaos Faction) to Genestealer Cults (a Tyranid Faction) does not seem right to me. 

 

We come back to just exactly what they are in essence. They may be human, like the Imperial Guard, but they are Xenos corrupted and a doorway to discussion of Xenos on the boards when that is exactly what is not wanted here. This forum is centred on the Imperium and Chaos, not the whole gamut of races in the 40k universe.

 

I suppose what it boils down to is this: Do you consider a Genestealer Cult more Xenos or more Human? Obviously, I think they are defined - above all - by the Xenos in them. And this, in my opinion, disqualifies them from B&C.

[Space Truckin]

I'm for their inclusion, to me its a clearly human faction, that can ally with Xeno, much as CSM can ally with Daemon.

 

I thought the Facebook FAQs  stated they were Allies of Convenience with Nids.  Considering these dudes sit and wait on the planet to become the appetizer.

[Sete]

I strongly disagree.

And depending on the unit contents they might even be more deserving to be in the board than daemons.

 

Depending on how many Imperial Guard units are added and the lore I will present counter arguments.

Ofc if it's over 50% xenos content I will not follow this through.

 

And obviously I would like to see daemons gone. They have nothing human.

Unlike Cults.

[Soldier of Dorn]

 

I do acknowledge that Daemons may feel somewhat of an anachronism here - currently they are included in the brief as an exception. It's likely that one of our Chaos Mods or Fraters can provide better reasoning than I can but, as a Faction, Chaos has Daemons. It just does. It has done since the beginning of 40k. Denying daemons to the Chaos community seems like we're punishing them because a specific substrata has gained a degree of attention from the Design Studio. However, equating Daemons (a Chaos Faction) to Genestealer Cults (a Tyranid Faction) does not seem right to me.

 

If I understand correctly, it's a holdover from the days when Daemons were just part of the Chaos Space Marines army list, before the 4th Edition Codices. They were part of a board-permitted army when the B&C was exclusively for power armored lists. One could argue, therefore, that Daemons, as a former part of a power armor army, have more right to be here than the Guard even. It'd be a stupid argument, but it'd also be logical.

 

On-topic, however, I'm of the mind that we should not allow GS Cults, cool as they might be. They might be human, or at least partially so, but as Olis and Brother Casman may say, they are Xenos in nature and push the line just a bit too far. It's the same reason we don't allow Tau Gue'vesa on the board. They might be genetically human, but their loyalties, their nature, is that of the Xenos (We don't allow Gue'vesa, right? Right?) Actually, that might be the best precedent for something similar.

[Joe]

I suppose it comes back to the core issue of what the B&C is about; and what it will/could be in the future. Whether or not it remains the same or, over a period of time, opens up to the other factions of the 40k Universe. Growth might be a good thing, but at the same time is it worth risking the current status quo? How would the community react to non-Imperial/Chaos boards and discussion on the forums? How would events like ETL be handled? Would there need to be a new influx of moderators?

 

Once you start the ball, you can't just stick a wedge in front of it. You have to keep it rolling, and as much as I'd love to see a Genestealer board on the forums I don't think it's fair to go down that route.

[Soldier of Dorn]

I mean, they're called Genestealer Cults. They're literally named after a type of Alien!

[Warsmith Uveron]

When they have Power Armour, Bolters and ChainSwords In house... Then they get to be in the "Club House". 

 

For me that is the dividing line. 

 

It's not the Human only Club, its the Power Armour Club. 

[Halandaar]

When they have Power Armour, Bolters and ChainSwords In house... Then they get to be in the "Club House".

 

For me that is the dividing line.

 

It's not the Human only Club, its the Power Armour Club.

Yep, completely agree, which is why AdMech, Imperial Guard and Daemons aren't allowed here.

 

Wait...

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

Yep, completely agree, which is why AdMech, Imperial Guard and Daemons aren't allowed here.

 

Wait...

 

Astra Militarum meets those criteria, they have Bolters, Chainswords, and if you look at the Engineseer's profile he has power armor (so one unit with "in house" power armor).

[Dosjetka]

 

When they have Power Armour, Bolters and ChainSwords In house... Then they get to be in the "Club House".

 

For me that is the dividing line.

 

It's not the Human only Club, its the Power Armour Club.

Yep, completely agree, which is why AdMech, Imperial Guard and Daemons aren't allowed here.

 

Wait...

If you go back and read what the Admins posted when they included each of these factions into the "B&C family" then you'll get a pretty good understanding why Imperial Guard, Adeptus Mechanicus, and Daemons are acceptable subjects of discussion here while Genestealer Cults aren't.

 

And I'll be amongst the first to argue that Genestealer Cultists are more of a Xenos breed than an actual human faction like some people are claiming.

[Halandaar]

Yes, I understand all these armies have their reasons for being included. It's not me drawing lines in the sand that aren't actually accurate though; It's clearly not the power armour club when there are forces included which don't use it.

 

I am actually somewhat in agreement with Genestealer Cult not being valid based on what we know of them now (ie, from Overkill). I think if they become much more "human" though, being able to include Guard units in their army and ally with Imperial factions then it should definitely be reconsidered.

[Sete]

 

 

Yep, completely agree, which is why AdMech, Imperial Guard and Daemons aren't allowed here.

 

Wait...

 

Astra Militarum meets those criteria, they have Bolters, Chainswords, and if you look at the Engineseer's profile he has power armor (so one unit with "in house" power armor).

Well Cults might have Imperial Guard units. Then they will have bolters and chainswords ;)

 

If cults are not allowed daemons should not be aswell.

 

Or are we holding onto them just because 3rd edition?

In that case BT should not be lumped with Space marines because they had a independent codex once.

 

If the criteria is applied to one it must be applied to all. (Yeah I'm a bit grumpy today gamma chill :) )

[Soldier of Dorn]

 

 

When they have Power Armour, Bolters and ChainSwords In house... Then they get to be in the "Club House".

 

For me that is the dividing line.

 

It's not the Human only Club, its the Power Armour Club.

Yep, completely agree, which is why AdMech, Imperial Guard and Daemons aren't allowed here.

 

Wait...

If you go back and read what the Admins posted when they included each of these factions into the "B&C family" then you'll get a pretty good understanding why Imperial Guard, Adeptus Mechanicus, and Daemons are acceptable subjects of discussion here while Genestealer Cults aren't.

 

And I'll be amongst the first to argue that Genestealer Cultists are more of a Xenos breed than an actual human faction like some people are claiming.

 

 

Relevant link is relevant: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262340-need-your-feedback/

 

But seriously, I don't think it's going to happen. The Admins made a decision, and in my opinion it's highly unlikely that they will reverse that decision. It might, but I'm sure it wouldn't happen until the full release happens and we know more information about the Faction as a whole. Then it could be an argument if there's enough to support it. But not at the present moment.

[Dosjetka]

Halandaar: it might not be an exclusively PA-orientated board but it is overwhelmingly focussed on the Astartes.

 

At the end of the day, I firmly believe that Genestealer Cults, despite their use of human technology, do not fall under the "Armies of Humanity" blanket/cover/whatever. They are a Xenos breed/hybrid designed to infiltrate the Imperium and overthrow Imperial rule but they are not human and so should not be discussed here on the B&C.

 

And I'll leave it at that. We can disgaree and debate about this for pages and pages but it will lead us nowhere. I accept your diverging viewpoint but stand firmly by my own. :)

 

P.S. Daemons and CSM appear together in the same Codex in 7th Edition: KDK. Justification for their presence here: provided.

[Battybattybats]

New evidence should always bring past decisions/conclusions under review. That's just how integrity and honesty works.
The final straw on the Overkill decision was the allies matrix, yet that has been FAQ'd and IF there is Astra unit inclusion then i think that very much suggests a thorough review would be apt.

Almost every unit in a genestealer cult is part-human. a 1st gen hybrid is almost 1/4 human, 2nd gen 1/2, 3rd gen 3/4, 4th gen 9/10ths. If there's brood-brothers back those are 100% to 99% human depending on if infected or not.

How human is a possessed chaos marine? How human is an obliterator?

The more human hybrids are more common than the less, in fluff and likely army composition (certainly you get more in a box). If we count up the proportion of each figure that is human it will be majority human.

Loyalty to an outside force, chaos has that.

Now issues of having powered armour bolters and chainswords may be a different rationale.. but what if astra militarum units with bolters chainswords or powered armour are part of the list?

A slippery slope of xenos argument may not be a valid argument. Genestealer cults are specifically part-human intrinsically. Eldar do not have human units or half-human units. It is precisely because Genestealers have stolen human genes and are part-human and may include wholly-human units that they are suggested for here, the intrinsically overlap the two categories just the same way a chaos marine or chaos guardsman overlaps human and the mutated warped inhumanity of chaos.

IF there's Astra units in the army then i suggest the rules be adapted to allow:
Genstealer Cult units up to and including purestrain genestealers (at one point in fluff suggested they are all made partly with human DNA) and patriarchs/broodlords where they are part of a Genestealer Cult force but NOT any Tyranid allies. If a dividing line needs to be drawn i suggest it be that. It follows the preexisting precedent of Daemons in a fairly consistent logical manner, and if anything is less lenient than with Daemons.

[Halandaar]

I think my overall point is that you make one small change...

 

They are ... designed to infiltrate the Imperium and overthrow Imperial rule but they are not human and so should not be discussed here on the B&C.

...and you now describe cultists and Daemons, which are allowed to be discussed.

 

I don't think there's any harm in challenging the way things are, but I'm honestly not expecting a change. My reasoning for including them would be their potentially close ties to Imperial Guard, but I appreciate that their addition is sort of circumstantial and wasn't wanted by everybody in the first place.

 

I think if people were saying "Daemons are integral to the feel and look of the Chaos faction as a whole and that's why they're allowed" (as I acknowledge that the Admins did), then fine. But "it doesn't wear power armour" and "not human" don't wash as reasons when we have factions which are allowed that don't adhere to those "rules".

 

TL;DR: I wish Cult would be included because B&C is the best 40k forum and id love to be able to see all the frater's cool Genecult stuff without tromping around the dark recesses of the webway to find it.

[Battybattybats]

Oh i just read that neophyte leaders can take a chainsword...
And bolt pistol.

 

[Sete]

And cults have Imperial Guard units.

Justification for their presence aswell.

[Battybattybats]

Massive Spoiler for Deathwatch Ignition

The Cassius story makes clear that there is a conspiracy insode the Inquisition AND deathwatch that try and prevent Cassius from investigating Ghosar Quintus. He speaks to another ranking Deathwatch marine who has previously encountered this conspiracy. This means at the minimum that at the time of the Ghosar Quintus incident there are Genestealer infected and/or Genestealer hybrid Inquisitors at positions of majpr influence over the deathwatch but also that there may be Genestealer-infected or loyalty-corrupted Deathwatch captains! The massive importance of that cannot be understated.