Muddled origins of Adeptus Mechanicus weapons?

[Magos Takatus]

I've considered making a post about this a few times but only now decided to open it up for discussion. I think the rules for some of the weapons and models were switched during development for some reason.

 

I always thought it was odd that Phosphor and stubber weapons were a bit confusing across the range. There are several very different styles of weapon that get lumped into being either Phosphor weapons or stubber weapons. If you compare the Phosphor weapon upgrades for the Kataphrons and Kastelans they are almost exactly the same as the heavy stubber on the Onager Dunecrawler. The "x" shape on the ammo box and the weapon tip being the only giveaway. Compare that to the Kastelan arm Phosphor and the Dunecrawler twin-linked  array, and then to the Phosphor Blast pistol and the antique looking Serpenta and it almost seems as if they ran out of time inventing new rules and just bundled all of these guns into two basic weapon catagories.

 

As well as the Phosphor Blast pistol (with no blast) and the Serpenta being almost identical rules-wise we have the stubcarbine, the flechette blaster and the Macrostubber being an odd hybrid of the two (I guess technically having your cake and eating it for the Dominus). We get models with very different appearances with very similar rules. Without the word "Carbine" in it I would have just assumed it was just a machine pistol stubber. Specifically in the case of the Blast pistol and the Serpenta, you trade the ability to use the weapon in assault in order to get a tiny bit more range. It's something I don't recall seeing in other another codex and it just seems a tad redundant to me.

 

The part that I thought strange though is the Transonic weapons and the Taser weapons. As you all already know the Transonic weapon cause damage by resonating at the target armour frequency and passing through it to hit the target underneath. However, if you read the flavour text for the Taser weapons it says: "A solid impact will cause this energy to be discharged in a scorching blast..." Which seems odd. Surely just touching the enemy would cause a discharge? Similarly, reading through the Phase Taser flavour text reveals that "One struck hard by the prongs at the taser's end will be instantly and permanently transported into another dimension...".

 

My theory is that the weapon we now know as the Taser Goad was originally going to be the Transonic weapon, since it's shape also resembles a tuning fork as much as a taser/cattle prod. Hitting the target hard would attune it to the target's armour. The flavour text could have been left over from the original description, since it seems beating the living daylights out of someone when you have the ability to shock is a bit odd. That would just be another Arc Maul.

 

I'm just curious what people think about this topic. A lot of people believe Games Workshop designs the miniatures and then cooks up rules for them and I think we see that in both the Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus books. Are there other strange inconsistancies people have noticed? Do you think I'm reading too much into the Taser flavour text? Do you think it helps or hinders our understanding of the army/faction? I'm curious to see what other people's perspectives are on this.

[BassWave]

Yeah phosphor weapons look pretty uninspired compared to the rest of the range. I guess they ran out of weapons to copy from the Fallout videogame.

 

As for the cc weapons, I'm pretty sure you're reading too much into it. Transonic blades do have a holes along the blade which I'd imagine helps with whatever sonic science nonsense. Also, the image of a dragoon shock poking you to death, while funny, isn't as cool as beating you to death while lightning fries you.

[MoGuy]

 

 

However, if you read the flavour text for the Taser weapons it says: "A solid impact will cause this energy to be discharged in a scorching blast..." Which seems odd. Surely just touching the enemy would cause a discharge? 

 

I think what the author wanted to say is, that when the enemy is struck by a Taser it will fry him, as long as the hit was hard enough to actually dent/damage the enemy's armour. Sure, poking a Space Marine with the Taser Lance will lead electricity onto his armour. But that's not doing anything since the armoured parts are nonconductive. So in order to actually harm someone with that electric beatstick, he has to really hit him hard and drive in the discharging end into the armour or between where the armour parts join. 

 

 

 

Are there other strange inconsistancies people have noticed? 

 

It is odd that the extremely rad-saturated Vanguards are still S3 and T3 like a normal (healthy) human. It's also strange that the Mechanicus hasn't found a way to shield the Vanguard against their own weapons' radioactivity. Shouldn't be that hard to coat the magazines in an alloy that keeps the radioactivity inside. 

[CommodusXIII]

 

 

 

Are there other strange inconsistancies people have noticed? 

 

It is odd that the extremely rad-saturated Vanguards are still S3 and T3 like a normal (healthy) human. It's also strange that the Mechanicus hasn't found a way to shield the Vanguard against their own weapons' radioactivity. Shouldn't be that hard to coat the magazines in an alloy that keeps the radioactivity inside. 

 

 

Skitarii are both meat and metal - maybe the S3 T3 on the Vanguard is a reflection that, although the former is rotting away, the latter is still strong as ever.

 

Also, I don't think that the Mechanicus is unable to shield the Vanguard from their rad weaponry.  Rad weapons are relatively common in the Mechanicum army lists and none of those units are poisoned.  I think it's more that the Mechanicus are uninterested in the investment.  Vanguard (and the Skitarii in general) are to a certain extent disposable soldiers.  Rad shielding would require more resources on individuals that, most likely, won't live long enough to succumb to radiation poisoning.

[BassWave]

Actually, under the Vanguard lore it mentions that their robes offer some protection against the worst effects of the radiation. However due to their extremely long exposure to radiation, they start to deteriorate over time, with failing organic matter replaced with bionics.

[MoGuy]

 

 

Actually, under the Vanguard lore it mentions that their robes offer some protection against the worst effects of the radiation.

 

Quote from the Codex Skitarii (German version, so translated freely by me): 

 

 

The equipment of the Vanguard is so saturated with radioactivity that bystanders begin to tire and stumble. The Vanguards themselves are theoretically safe in their armour but on the rare occasions that these warriors take off their helmets, the view of lost teeth and their hairless and wound-covered skin tells of the terrible truth.

(Codex: Skitarii, Page 25).

 

You are correct of course, they deteriorate over time. If they weren't enhanced with biocybernetics, I think the Vanguard would probably be just S2 T2. Still though, it is strange that they function so well in battle. As long as there is flesh, cancer would have a place to grow. And once it reaches the brain it's good night for the Skitarius. I wonder if that is the last stage before a Vanguardist is "retired"? Like, the Tech-Priest will probably let them fight as long as they can, since every failing organ etc. can just be replaced with a machine. But they can't replace the brain, without taking away the flexibility of the human mind (the human emotions and thoughts of Skitarii Alphas and higher-ups aren't fully repressed when deployed to allow them to adapt quickly to new situations). So cancer stage I - III are Vanguards that will be deployed. But once their cancer reaches stage IV they may be relayed to office jobs or something like that. 

 

Do we know what happens to the Vanguards if their condition gets too severe? Are they just executed (wasteful -> doesn't please the Omnissiah) or fully turned into a machine?

 

On another note: Does anyone know if it's possible for a Skitarius to ascend through the ranks until he is a Tech-Priest? In the novel "Skitarius" Captain Striker says that he started out as a normal Vanguardist, then got promoted to Alpha and then to Captain, at which point he leads whole battalions of Skitarii, along with their Sub-Alphas.

[CommodusXIII]

The fluff for the Onager Dunecrawler has a Vanguard as its pilot within a containment vessel.  They eventually expire and are replaced.  Maybe that's where the Vanguard too far gone for infantry duty end up.

[MoGuy]

Would be sweet if we were to get our own versions of the Space Marine Dreadnaughts. It would fit, wouldn't it? A Vanguardist that is too weak for infantry duty but has done some awesome stuff whilst he was deployed could be put inside of a battle automata. That way they could strip away everything apart from the central nerve system, thus effectively stopping any cancer that hasn't infested the brain whilst retaining a valuable Skitarius, rich on HARD DATA and combat experience. 

[CommodusXIII]

You're pretty much describing both the Onager Dunecrawler and the Thallax.

[JeffTibbetts]

 

 

 

 

Are there other strange inconsistancies people have noticed? 

 

It is odd that the extremely rad-saturated Vanguards are still S3 and T3 like a normal (healthy) human. It's also strange that the Mechanicus hasn't found a way to shield the Vanguard against their own weapons' radioactivity. Shouldn't be that hard to coat the magazines in an alloy that keeps the radioactivity inside. 

 

 

Skitarii are both meat and metal - maybe the S3 T3 on the Vanguard is a reflection that, although the former is rotting away, the latter is still strong as ever.

 

Also, I don't think that the Mechanicus is unable to shield the Vanguard from their rad weaponry.  Rad weapons are relatively common in the Mechanicum army lists and none of those units are poisoned.  I think it's more that the Mechanicus are uninterested in the investment.  Vanguard (and the Skitarii in general) are to a certain extent disposable soldiers.  Rad shielding would require more resources on individuals that, most likely, won't live long enough to succumb to radiation poisoning.

 

 

Yeah, as Basswave says they're supposed to be shielded whilst in their armor. I guess the tech just isn't up to snuff. 

 

And yeah, also the Sicarians are said to have been more normal at one point, but once they get beat up enough it's time to move them to a more cybernetic role. So I'd guess as the body deteriorates or is damaged, the augmetics are swapped out for others and their battlefield role changes. The Onager pilots really just need a brain to interface from the sounds of it, so that's not much different from a dreadnaught. I kind of like the idea, myself. 

[Battybattybats]

 

 

 

Actually, under the Vanguard lore it mentions that their robes offer some protection against the worst effects of the radiation.

 

Quote from the Codex Skitarii (German version, so translated freely by me): 

 

 

The equipment of the Vanguard is so saturated with radioactivity that bystanders begin to tire and stumble. The Vanguards themselves are theoretically safe in their armour but on the rare occasions that these warriors take off their helmets, the view of lost teeth and their hairless and wound-covered skin tells of the terrible truth.

(Codex: Skitarii, Page 25).

 

You are correct of course, they deteriorate over time. If they weren't enhanced with biocybernetics, I think the Vanguard would probably be just S2 T2. Still though, it is strange that they function so well in battle. As long as there is flesh, cancer would have a place to grow. And once it reaches the brain it's good night for the Skitarius. I wonder if that is the last stage before a Vanguardist is "retired"? Like, the Tech-Priest will probably let them fight as long as they can, since every failing organ etc. can just be replaced with a machine. But they can't replace the brain, without taking away the flexibility of the human mind (the human emotions and thoughts of Skitarii Alphas and higher-ups aren't fully repressed when deployed to allow them to adapt quickly to new situations). So cancer stage I - III are Vanguards that will be deployed. But once their cancer reaches stage IV they may be relayed to office jobs or something like that. 

 

Do we know what happens to the Vanguards if their condition gets too severe? Are they just executed (wasteful -> doesn't please the Omnissiah) or fully turned into a machine?

 

On another note: Does anyone know if it's possible for a Skitarius to ascend through the ranks until he is a Tech-Priest? In the novel "Skitarius" Captain Striker says that he started out as a normal Vanguardist, then got promoted to Alpha and then to Captain, at which point he leads whole battalions of Skitarii, along with their Sub-Alphas.

 

 

IIRC the codex does suggest that those who enlist as skitari on mars hope to become techpriests eventually. I'm not sure if it says if any ever do though. I'm not home near my codex at the moment, so someone else will need to check, i think it's in the Mars Forgeworld background.

 

 

[Tiger9gamer]

I would expect that maybe some badass Skitarii alpha could become a Myrmadon or something, as I think those are tech priests too.

[Tyriks]

Tech priests seem to start as tech priests. I asked about this awhile back. Every source found has tech priests trained from childhood to become tech priests. Also Skitarii aren't fully free will thinking beings anymore - they are often lobotomized or have brain implants to limit behavior. The codex even goes so far as to say the tech priests occasionally override their minds completely. That wouldn't make for good tech priests.

[CommodusXIII]

I could see it going Forge by Forge. Some might have a true "Service Guanrantees Citizenship" policy. Others may be far more grimdark in that service is seen as a path of advancement, but in reality is just a delusion of grandeur propagated by the Cult Mechanicus.

[Battybattybats]

It's page 16 of the skitarii codex:
"Most citizens aspire to gaining status by joining the Skitarii. In the process, they will recieve their first battle-grade bionics and perhaps a way of later entering the priesthood."

It doesn't say any actually get to become priests that way but certainly that many believe they might do so.

[CommodusXIII]

Yeah, they definitely join the ranks of the Skitarii willingly.  Unlike, for example, the tech-thralls of 30K's Mechanicum.

[Tyriks]

The painting guide goes into how the models they are showcasing got into the Skitarii and I believe all of them they give stories for are criminals who were forced in as punishment.

[MoGuy]

 

 

Yeah, they definitely join the ranks of the Skitarii willingly

 

Most(?) of them do, yes. But the Adeptus Mechanicus also brainwashes or lobotomizes criminals which will then become battle servitors or Skitarii.  

[Battybattybats]

The quote i gave was from the Mars Forgeworld section, so may not be true for other Forgeworlds.

[jeffersonian000]

While this current incarnation of Skitarii are cybernetically enhanced rad troopers, previous incarnations have been regular human Tech Guard in some publications and Gene Enhanced clones in other publications. It's better to think of the current version as those common to the named Forge Worlds in the codex rather than as how all Skitarii are in 40k. It is also better to think of the human component of each Skitarii to be the consumable part, as the metal is valued much higher by the Mechanicus.

 

SJ