FW/Black Library confusion.

[Unholyechoes]

Does anyone else think the FW writers haven't read the Black Library HH books? I feel as though some of the unique units/equipment/relics do not make much sense when compared to HH books I have read so far.

 

My first example(as a World Eater) is the giant scary Trident. Who thought the best idea was to give a pedominately assault legion a weapon that they could throw away for a chance to gain a single kill and a large blob of potentially catastrophic charges?

 

Next would be the super smurfs. First and foremost, the Legatine Axe. I am quite certain the favorite CCW of an Ultra is a sword(gladius in particular) so why not make it an AP2 power gladius?

 

Second is the power weapon breachers(Suzerain?) I love that they exist, and feel they would make sense as an elite choice for everyone. To make the unique unit for the boys in blue to represent their shield wall(seen in Betrayer) I would just give them counter attack and maybe a BS2 overwatch.

[IronDrake28]

Next would be the super smurfs. First and foremost, the Legatine Axe. I am quite certain the favorite CCW of an Ultra is a sword(gladius in particular) so why not make it an AP2 power gladius?

 

Second is the power weapon breachers(Suzerain?) I love that they exist, and feel they would make sense as an elite choice for everyone. To make the unique unit for the boys in blue to represent their shield wall(seen in Betrayer) I would just give them counter attack and maybe a BS2 overwatch.

The axe is as much a Roman symbol as a Gladius, and there is a relic Gladius. The Logos Lectora can give you BS2 overwatch or Counter-attack, just as you describe.

 

I don't really understand your point though, and this doesn't really fit in this sub-forum.

[Unholyechoes]

I think the axe was more Auxiliaries than actual Roman Legionaires.

 

My point is that the writers of fluff and writers of rules may be on different pages. Is there a more suitable sub-forum to which it could be moved?

[IronDrake28]

I think the axe was more Auxiliaries than actual Roman Legionaires.

 

My point is that the writers of fluff and writers of rules may be on different pages. Is there a more suitable sub-forum to which it could be moved?

Welp it's been moved now... anyway, I highly doubt FW and BL don't talk about what's happening in the Heresy all the time.

 

I'm confused as to why certain pices of equipment seem to have made you think that though.

[GhostMalone]

Well we usually ignore the silly black library scribbles and just look at them as a guide for individual stories not the entire setting which fw cover well with both lore and rules.

 

Except them sneaky alphas and word bearers.

 

They got cheat codes

[Unholyechoes]

 

I think the axe was more Auxiliaries than actual Roman Legionaires.

 

My point is that the writers of fluff and writers of rules may be on different pages. Is there a more suitable sub-forum to which it could be moved?

Welp it's been moved now... anyway, I highly doubt FW and BL don't talk about what's happening in the Heresy all the time.

 

I'm confused as to why certain pices of equipment seem to have made you think that though.

The Legions are all based loosely on historical cultures/fighting forces, with their own unique space knight spins.

 

When I think gladiator pits and trident at the same time, I don't think about it being thrown, I think about a guy with a net, catching his foe, and skewering him while he tries to untangle himself.

 

When I think of the Roman Legions, not counting auxiliaries, I think of a tower shield, a long spear, and a short sword, maybe even a javelin or two.

[Legatus]

I rather sometimes feel like some BL writers haven't read the GW lore. How else do you end up with statements such as the Space Wolves being the most unhinged and feared of all the Legions? Or with 10,000 strong Ultramarines Chapters, completely losing the connection between the Legion Chapters being used as the template for the later standard formation for all Space Marines?

 

With FW it is easier to see where they deliberately changed previous lore. In some instances it is apparent that they payed very close attention to what the original GW sources said as well as the newer BL material. The prime example here is the treatment of the Alpha Legion. FW did a great job reconciling the new take on them from BL (allways super sneaky and infiltrating all the time) with their original background from GW (a very martial culture, disciplined and relentless).

FW also evidently was very familiar with the original background of the Ultramarines, since their treatment is shaped very closely after their original 2nd Edition background. It seems more that FW then deliberately went on to tweak and twist a lot of the elements, removing any sense of accomplishment and capability.

 

One (IMHO unfortunate) change FW has introduced is that all the individual traits the Legions had been given, which previously had to be assumed (or were specifically described as such) to come from the teachings of their Primarchs, are in FW material instead said to have been pre-inscribed into the genes of the Legion. I.e. it was not Curze who introduced ruthless terror tactics to the Night Lords, they operated like that from the beginning. It was not Guilliman who brought a considered doctrine to his Legion, lowering casualty rates and being interested in observing the doctrines of his brothers, that's what the 13th Legion already did before being reunited with Guilliman. It wasn't Ferrus Manus who put a heavy emphasis on heavy mechanical weapon systems, but what the Iron Hands Legion had already done before finding him. What previously had been attributed to the Primarchs growing up in different environments, shaping their Legions according to their experiences, is now said to have been pre-ordained and intentionally crafted into the Legions from the beginning.

 

Another thing are the special units. Here it is unfortunately very obvious that the desire to sell model kits was much more important than considerations of lore consistency. And for no Legion it is as apparent as for the Ultramarines. Guilliman had refined his doctrines all throughout the Great Crusade, and at the time of the Heresy it was only a few years until he would finalise his treatise on how to best organise and operate a Space Marine force. So how can it be that there are special units in the Ultramarines Legion, specifically designed and incorporated by Guilliman, but then none of them will be in the Codex Astartes? If he thought they were good units, he would have included them, and the Chapter would be using those units to this day and they would be in the 40K Codex Space Marines. But they aren't so evidently Guilliman didn't think they were very effective. But then the Legion wouldn't have used them. The Ultramarines Legion army list, shortly before the Scouring and reorganisation into Chapters, should have been almost identical to the 40K Space Marines army list, with the main exception of certain relic weaponry that would later be lost, or lacking other weaponry that would later be developed. It should have no "special units".

But no, in this case the writers explicitely went against the lore, just so they could sell their own FW model kits for the Ultramarines.

[Unholyechoes]

I rather sometimes feel like some BL writers haven't read the GW lore. How else do you end up with statements such as the Space Wolves being the most unhinged and feared of all the Legions? Or with 10,000 strong Ultramarines Chapters, completely losing the connection between the Legion Chapters being used as the template for the later standard formation for all Space Marines?

 

With FW it is easier to see where they deliberately changed previous lore. In some instances it is apparent that they payed very close attention to what the original GW sources said as well as the newer BL material. The prime example here is the treatment of the Alpha Legion. FW did a great job reconciling the new take on them from BL (allways super sneaky and infiltrating all the time) with their original background from GW (a very martial culture, disciplined and relentless).

FW also evidently was very familiar with the original background of the Ultramarines, since their treatment is shaped very closely after their original 2nd Edition background. It seems more that FW then deliberately went on to tweak and twist a lot of the elements, removing any sense of accomplishment and capability.

 

One (IMHO unfortunate) change FW has introduced is that all the individual traits the Legions had been given, which previously had to be assumed (or were specifically described as such) to come from the teachings of their Primarchs, are in FW material instead said to have been pre-inscribed into the genes of the Legion. I.e. it was not Curze who introduced ruthless terror tactics to the Night Lords, they operated like that from the beginning. It was not Guilliman who brought a considered doctrine to his Legion, lowering casualty rates and being interested in observing the doctrines of his brothers, that's what the 13th Legion already did before being reunited with Guilliman. It wasn't Ferrus Manus who put a heavy emphasis on heavy mechanical weapon systems, but what the Iron Hands Legion had already done before finding him. What previously had been attributed to the Primarchs growing up in different environments, shaping their Legions according to their experiences, is now said to have been pre-ordained and intentionally crafted into the Legions from the beginning.

 

Another thing are the special units. Here it is unfortunately very obvious that the desire to sell model kits was much more important than considerations of lore consistency. And for no Legion it is as apparent as for the Ultramarines. Guilliman had refined his doctrines all throughout the Great Crusade, and at the time of the Heresy it was only a few years until he would finalise his treatise on how to best organise and operate a Space Marine force. So how can it be that there are special units in the Ultramarines Legion, specifically designed and incorporated by Guilliman, but then none of them will be in the Codex Astartes? If he thought they were good units, he would have included them, and the Chapter would be using those units to this day and they would be in the 40K Codex Space Marines. But they aren't so evidently Guilliman didn't think they were very effective. But then the Legion wouldn't have used them. The Ultramarines Legion army list, shortly before the Scouring and reorganisation into Chapters, should have been almost identical to the 40K Space Marines army list, with the main exception of certain relic weaponry that would later be lost, or lacking other weaponry that would later be developed. It should have no "special units".

But no, in this case the writers explicitely went against the lore, just so they could sell their own FW model kits for the Ultramarines.

Clearly there is no such thing as too many upside down Ω in the world.

[Inquisitor Kravin]

On the general point about the Legions being pre-destined to adopt the characteristics of the Primarch's adoptive homeworld I agree it makes no sense. It seems the only way to make sense of that is for it to have been the Emperor not the Chaos Gods who scattered the infant Primarchs. That would make his already dire treatment of Angron even worse!

 

I'm less bothered by the Ultramarines specifically. In the short story Red Marked we see that the events of Calth, the Underworld War and the Shadow Crusade have prompted Guilliman to re-evaluate his entire martial philosophy. They need to use smaller, more flexible rapid reaction forces where a single squad is a force in its own right - hence the move from Legion Tacticals to 40k Tacticals.

 

I think the elite, resource intensive Suzerains survived this shift only as Chapter Honour Guard like Calgar's ornate axe wielding squad.

[Unholyechoes]

On the general point about the Legions being pre-destined to adopt the characteristics of the Primarch's adoptive homeworld I agree it makes no sense. It seems the only way to make sense of that is for it to have been the Emperor not the Chaos Gods who scattered the infant Primarchs. That would make his already dire treatment of Angron even worse!

 

I'm less bothered by the Ultramarines specifically. In the short story Red Marked we see that the events of Calth, the Underworld War and the Shadow Crusade have prompted Guilliman to re-evaluate his entire martial philosophy. They need to use smaller, more flexible rapid reaction forces where a single squad is a force in its own right - hence the move from Legion Tacticals to 40k Tacticals.

 

I think the elite, resource intensive Suzerains survived this shift only as Chapter Honour Guard like Calgar's ornate axe wielding squad.

They would be less resource intensive if the Ultramarines weren't the most gaudy loyalist legion.

[Marshal Rohr]

THe fasces was the symbol of authority. Hence the legatine axes.

[noigrim]

 

Next would be the super smurfs. First and foremost, the Legatine Axe. I am quite certain the favorite CCW of an Ultra is a sword(gladius in particular) so why not make it an AP2 power gladius?

 

Second is the power weapon breachers(Suzerain?) I love that they exist, and feel they would make sense as an elite choice for everyone. To make the unique unit for the boys in blue to represent their shield wall(seen in Betrayer) I would just give them counter attack and maybe a BS2 overwatch.

The axe is as much a Roman symbol as a Gladius, and there is a relic Gladius. The Logos Lectora can give you BS2 overwatch or Counter-attack, just as you describe.

 

I don't really understand your point though, and this doesn't really fit in this sub-forum.

 

axe ain't roman, no unit in the army had axes they are a barbarian stuff like viking varagian guard

 

besides there are some varangii guys in the artwork which look totally like suzerains

[GhostMalone]

I think you've misconstrued the nature v nurture argument, look at the xiith the ivth and the xviiith they were polar opposites of their primarchs but they still had genetic traits.

 

If you think of the gene seed on a genetic level it makes sense that some abilities characteristics will be passed down. Just like some inherent mutations in a certain percentage will appear.

 

The gene seed was only created due to the loss of the primarchs. The emperor had already decided what he needed in each primarch hence why he is emotionally detached. He crafted the legions he crafted the primarchs but in his hubris he forgot to take into account the fact that no matter what he put in place free will existed in these entities.

 

So off course their offspring would carry some of these traits.

To say it's stupid is to deny nature, forgeworld put a lot of thought into this beyond something as simple as legion tactics, they weaved a tapestry of complexity which still allows for growth and development beyond I'm an ultrasmurf I follow orders

[Demus Ragnok]

"the writers of fluff and writers of rules may be on different pages."

Yes. That may just be so. And I'm glad. Cause if they let ADB write rules the world might melt under the weight of all the awesome.

[Corswain]

Yes and no. Sometimes FW do branch out and sometimes they stick pretty close. I get it, they want to do their own thing but they get to pick and choose the best bits from BL. So far I think I prefer the FW version of a Legion every time.

 

Regarding the Ultramarine axes - I thought that was a pretty solid nod to the 40K honour guard models. Give the honour guard shields and you're looking at the same thing. I like it, little hints, clues and design cues that show a 10,000 year history.

[A D-B]

 

"the writers of fluff and writers of rules may be on different pages."

Yes. That may just be so. And I'm glad. Cause if they let ADB write rules the world might melt under the weight of all the awesome.

 

 

Ha! With my writing speed of late, if you think the wait for some Legions is bad now, you'd basically never see them if I was helping out with the rules, too.

 

 

Yes and no. Sometimes FW do branch out and sometimes they stick pretty close. I get it, they want to do their own thing but they get to pick and choose the best bits from BL. So far I think I prefer the FW version of a Legion every time.

 

FW is empowered to show a much wider range of scope and change than the novel series is (or ever could) largely due to the fact FW produces models, and models come before all else. If you look at the earliest HH books they're very, very conservative in how the Legions function and are organised, little different in a lot of ways to the Chapters of the Dark Millennium. That's eroded a bit now with the oversight of BL and FW drinking from the same cup - and some authors have more interaction with FW than others, and vice versa - but it's always going to be a core truth. 

 

F'rex, volkite guns, as awesome as they are, aren't a stroke of genius that no sci-fi writer could ever have imagined. But you can't just invent something like that in the IP on that scale in a novel, claiming they were the weapons of the Legions before the bolter, and showing how common they still are. Forge World can, because it can immediately make that true by releasing models to back it up. That's pretty much how it works. 

 

Added to that, as mentioned above, it's a key aspect in some of us trying very hard to say "This is how it feels to be part of the Legion" rather than "This is how the entire Legion operates". I've always considered that angle a big part of the job, rather than trying to give out a Chapter/Legion-wise treatise on culture and organisation within a novel. Forge World's presentation on the Legions and their themes is golden. Like you I wouldn't change it all - my only complaint is that I wish the FW books had come first, and we could've based the novel series on those. 

 

 

 

 

Next would be the super smurfs. First and foremost, the Legatine Axe. I am quite certain the favorite CCW of an Ultra is a sword(gladius in particular) so why not make it an AP2 power gladius?

 

Second is the power weapon breachers(Suzerain?) I love that they exist, and feel they would make sense as an elite choice for everyone. To make the unique unit for the boys in blue to represent their shield wall(seen in Betrayer) I would just give them counter attack and maybe a BS2 overwatch.

The axe is as much a Roman symbol as a Gladius, and there is a relic Gladius. The Logos Lectora can give you BS2 overwatch or Counter-attack, just as you describe.

 

I don't really understand your point though, and this doesn't really fit in this sub-forum.

 

axe ain't roman, no unit in the army had axes they are a barbarian stuff like viking varagian guard

 

besides there are some varangii guys in the artwork which look totally like suzerains

 

 

Like the good marshal says, even if there wasn't a special snowflake axe division of the army, axes are totes malotes Roman. Lictors carried them, and they have a proud history of relevance to the Roman Kingdom, Republic, and Empire.

[rendingon1+]

Although axes carried by lictors were not weapons of war (and lictors were not warriors) I have no problem with that. The only thing that irks me about these axes is their bacground.

[apologist]

Apologies if I'm putting words in A D-B's mouth, but I take this:

 

 

FW is empowered to show a much wider range of scope and change than the novel series is (or ever could)[...]it's a key aspect in some of us trying very hard to say "This is how it feels to be part of the Legion" rather than "This is how the entire Legion operates".

...to mean that, while both the Forge World and Black Library writers are expanding the universe, the difference is how they do it. Forgeworld are like a telescope – they tell us the broader narrative view, while Black Library's like a microscope – going into the human details that make the big picture relatable and interesting.

 

Of course the writing overlaps, but – being enthusiasts themselves – I suspect all the writers want to introduce more of the gaps and exceptions that make the background and lore of the universe so rich and compelling, and hint that there's more than is being described; leaving enough space in the setting for your interpretation. 

 

I think if the teams both started writing identical material, it's a reductive cycle: the stories would get self-referential, and the rich background would become more stereotyped and generic. The original post had a couple of examples that help explain what I'm saying:

 

 

First and foremost, the Legatine Axe. I am quite certain the favorite CCW of an Ultra is a sword(gladius in particular) so why not make it an AP2 power gladius?

I vaguely recall a Jes Goodwin interview where he wanted to explain that the Ultramarines draw from a broader palette – informed and inspired by the Classical period, not simply 'Romans in space'. As a result, while having a gladius as the 'special weapon' would seem obvious, having something else – in this case the equally appropriate axe – expands the background and encourages readers to think again.

 

It's the difference between picking the exemplary and picking the thematic. Shiban Khan, for example, exemplifies the White Scars – he is immediately recognisable as a 'pop culture Mongol in space' – while Torghun Khan is a thematic character that expands and informs the reader's understanding of the Legion. By virtue of being different and unexpected, Torghun emphasises what makes Shiban interesting and well-rounded as a character by contrast; and so expands the theme. Nevertheless, even if Shiban were not present, Torghun would still be obviously a White Scars because he shares some of the iconic features of the Legion.

 

The same is true of many characters – Ventanus is an exemplary Ultramarine, while Thiel expands the Ultramarines theme beyond stereotype. Argel Tal works so well as a character partly because he's thematically different to the other Word Bearers in the novels, while still having the iconic, recognisable traits of a Word Bearer. 

 

In other words, a gladius is the obvious choice for an Ultramarine to have as a special weapon. By deliberately picking an axe, Forge World are expanding the theme. Axes 'feel' right for the Ultramarines owing to real world history – while not exemplary of the Romans, axes were (as others have mentioned above) still iconic of certain aspects of Ancient Rome – and existing in-universe lore, such as the models for the 41st Millennium Ultramarines Honour Guard, for example. 

 

As a result, I don't think there's a disjunct between the writing teams – simply that they're both looking at different facets, and riffing on them. In short, it's a bug, not a feature. :)

[Noserenda]

I think any topic could be solved by ADB and Apologist posting in succession :D

 

To Add, im not sure what the problem with the WE Relic is, its a trident and its frikkin cool? You would perhaps prefer the crap some of the other legions got? :D

[Legatus]

Giving an army associated with versatility and technique a signature unit all armed with axes was the fault of the 4th Edition Codex Space Marines (no surprise, written by someone with a deep dislike for classical Ultramarines), not the FW guys, so this does not really belong here.

 

Giving the Ultramarines Legion specialised units that Guilliman would then discard a few years later when writing the Codex is the bigger issue. And I cannot accept "Legions were operating in larger formations" as an excuse, since there are enough examples of Legion forces campaigning independently at Chapter strength (proper Chapter, 1,000 men), so there would have been doctrines and organisation accomodating such operations.

 

I also wonder what reason FW might have had to attribute the Ultramarines' faster growth to their gene-seed being faster to reproduce than that of other Legions other than to take that accomplishment from them.

In previous 40K Codex lore, the Legion's growth had been attributed directly to Roboute Guilliman, how he had organised and led the Legion. The Legion's growth was a testament to their effective doctrines. In FW lore the reason for their growth is the genetic material that was faster to reproduce than that of the other Legions that was handed to them. And they needed the larger numbers to be effective, as FW describes multiple times how their doctrines are based around large numbers of troops being available. So FW changed the Legion's enormeous size from being an achievement of Guilliman to being a crutch they had been handed and they had to rely on. Double whammy "screw you Ultramarines" writing on the part of FW, there.

 

 

(P.s.: This topic is about FW diverging from earlier material, so I guess you have to accept my whining about the treatment of the Ultramarines.)

[Corswain]

Added to that, as mentioned above, it's a key aspect in some of us trying very hard to say "This is how it feels to be part of the Legion" rather than "This is how the entire Legion operates". I've always considered that angle a big part of the job, rather than trying to give out a Chapter/Legion-wise treatise on culture and organisation within a novel. Forge World's presentation on the Legions and their themes is golden. Like you I wouldn't change it all - my only complaint is that I wish the FW books had come first, and we could've based the novel series on those.

This, to me, is the most important distinction between the work of FW and BL - FW explores the character of a Legion, BL explores the character of its Legionaries.

 

No complaints about BL series starting before FW for me. Without you guys and the awesome work you've done/are doing, FW might never have got the chance to do the Heresy.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

P.s.: This topic is about FW diverging from earlier material, so I guess you have to accept my whining about the treatment of the Ultramarines.

 

But it's actually about Black Library and Forgeworld Authors having a perceived lack of overlap.

 

You complain about stuff that was changed from back in 2nd and 3rd ed 

[Legatus]

Chapters within the Legions being 1,000 strong is not "2nd Edition". Ultramar being 8 worlds isn't 2nd Edition. The reasons for the Ultramarines' growth is at the very least 5th Edition.

 

HH1: Betrayal describes the standard size for a Chapter as 1,000 men. The same CHapter structure was used in earlier Dark Angels HH stories. But then 'Know No Fear' goes off script. And now the Ultramarines use 10,000 strong Chapters. BL's description of the Battle for Calth in 'Know No Fear' did not even follow the previous BL description from 'Collected Visions'. And even between the FW HH books there are contradictions. So, really, there are not just differences between BL and FW, but even between different BL books and different FW books.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

No, Legatus, we do not have to accept your whining about the Ultramarines, and it really needs to stop or you're going to start getting warning points for it. We get it, you love the Ultras and don't like how they've "been cheated" of being the most awesome Legion EVAR with the geneseed productivity rate, but the mods are getting real tired of seeing reports with your name on them where you come rushing in out of nowhere carrying that torch and the same old story over and over again. 

[Legatus]

Maybe next time someone opens a topic specifically asking about FW Ultramarines I will be able to muster the fortitude to refrain from participating. Mea culpa. Caro autem infirma.