Augustus Posted October 3, 2016 Share Posted October 3, 2016 Question about the Raptors. Are they continuing to devolve/evolve into monstrosities? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326287-corax-book-40/page/2/#findComment-4518626 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted October 3, 2016 Share Posted October 3, 2016 Question: Reveal hidden contents Corax chokes a...dreadnought to death? Also, how do the SW figure into the story...what's their role? Anyone mind giving some detailed spoilers about the SW? Thanks Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326287-corax-book-40/page/2/#findComment-4518920 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted October 3, 2016 Share Posted October 3, 2016 On 10/3/2016 at 11:46 AM, b1soul said: Question: Reveal hidden contents Corax chokes a...dreadnought to death? Also, how do the SW figure into the story...what's their role? Anyone mind giving some detailed spoilers about the SW? Thanks Reveal hidden contents no, he chokes Navar Hef to death. And the SW are on Yarant, fighting a losing battle against WE/SoH/others, Russ is nearly killed, and the semi-rebuilt RG go to their rescue. They get them off in time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326287-corax-book-40/page/2/#findComment-4519670 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nazguire Posted October 3, 2016 Share Posted October 3, 2016 On 10/3/2016 at 10:49 PM, Apothecary Vaddon said: On 10/3/2016 at 11:46 AM, b1soul said: Question: Reveal hidden contents Corax chokes a...dreadnought to death? Also, how do the SW figure into the story...what's their role? Anyone mind giving some detailed spoilers about the SW? Thanks Reveal hidden contents no, he chokes Navar Hef to death. And the SW are on Yarant, fighting a losing battle against WE/SoH/others, Russ is nearly killed, and the semi-rebuilt RG go to their rescue. They get them off in time. Reveal hidden contents Why is he choking Navar Hef to death? Is this him getting rid of the mutated Raven Guard in general before he nicks off to the Eye of Terror, pronouncing 'Nevermore' on the way out? What's he say to the Iron Father? Good to see the 'Leman Russ is a pleb' trend continuing lolol. Sounds like an interesting read. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326287-corax-book-40/page/2/#findComment-4519677 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 On 10/3/2016 at 10:49 PM, Apothecary Vaddon said: Reveal hidden contents no, he chokes Navar Hef to death. And the SW are on Yarant, fighting a losing battle against WE/SoH/others, Russ is nearly killed, and the semi-rebuilt RG go to their rescue. They get them off in time. Thank you. Who is Navar Hef? I have never heard of this character Reveal hidden contents Does this conflict occur some time between the end of Path of Heaven and the Siege? I'm assuming the SW are trying to ambush Horus...but things don't go well for them? How does Russ get wounded? Does Corax interact with Russ? Would appreciate any answers to my questions...thanks Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326287-corax-book-40/page/2/#findComment-4519769 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tymell Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 In answer to b1soul's questions: Reveal hidden contents Sometime between Path and Siege, yes. Russ has left Terra and chronological references seem to place this in 31,011/12. However, there's no detail on exactly what brought the Wolves into this position, it's very much left open for some other story to cover (Corax asks what happened and Russ just says "Nothing that matters now"). Corax does talk about his doubts to Russ, but Russ is near dead at the time, and Russ later gets up and speaks briefly to Corax and his Jarls, but collapses again before he says much.Navar Hef is a lieutenant of the Raptors, one of the ones who degenerates, seen in Deliverance Lost and some of the stories since. In Weregeld we see him descending further both mentally and physically, ended up wanting death to end it. To elaborate on the epilogue a bit: Reveal hidden contents We see Hef now completely degenerated physically, though still on some level recognising Corax and taking comfort from him. Corax, now believing the primarchs, astartes, Raptors, all of it to be warp-tainted, kills Hef, clearly distraught by it. Put me in mind of the ending of The Fly, or certain scenes from the sequel. My thoughts in a spoiler-free nutshell: Weregeld has some good ideas and more potential than the previous RG novellas, but doesn't explore them fully and ends up feeling rushed. EDIT - More detailed feedback: Reveal hidden contents I've been okay with Gav Thorpe's Raven Guard HH stuff, though not a big fan. Deliverance Lost had it's flaws but I liked it, more than most people I gather, Soulforge and Ravenlord were okay but kind of bland, and as a whole Gav's portrayal of the Raven Guard wasn't a truly bad one, but lacked some of the culture and identity that other authors have given to the legions. Weregeld is, in a way, the best of the RG novellas because it actually does come to the issues I think work best here: Corax's doubts and concerns, the Raptors, the tragedy of their story, but it's also a bit too little too late. These plot points were present in Soulforge and Ravenlord but never at the forefront, and as a result they now feel rushed and crammed in. The ending in particular is very sudden, and some of the plot developments could have done with significantly more page time to progress and be explored. You can see from the afterword that Gav has some solid ideas on Corax and his character, but he just doesn't spend enough time exploring them properly. I think Weregeld has the meatiest ideas of the three novellas, and in that sense it's the most enjoyable, but it also feels weaker precisely because you can see that potential but it doesn't get used fully. If they'd scrapped Soulforge and Ravenlord and made Weregeld a full novel, or perhaps more accurately just expand the themes of Weregeld into those other two more, we'd have a much more solid entry. Oh and there's a Tyranid thing early on in Weregeld which is just weird and silly. It comes out of nowhere, goes away just as quickly, and has absolutely nothing to do with the story at all. It's so out of place I feel pretty sure it only went in on editorial mandate. I didn't mind the little bit at the end of Pharos, but here it's just bizarre. - since confirmed not to be, though I still maintain it's a very weird scene. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326287-corax-book-40/page/2/#findComment-4520195 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taliesin Posted October 4, 2016 Author Share Posted October 4, 2016 A proper novel on the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons post- Prospero has been the one thing I've wanted to see for a long time now. Crimson King was really the book I was anticipating the most alongside MoM. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326287-corax-book-40/page/2/#findComment-4520396 Share on other sites More sharing options...
no I'm alpharius Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 On 10/4/2016 at 12:58 PM, Tymell said: In answer to b1soul's questions: Reveal hidden contents Sometime between Path and Siege, yes. Russ has left Terra and chronological references seem to place this in 31,011/12. However, there's no detail on exactly what brought the Wolves into this position, it's very much left open for some other story to cover (Corax asks what happened and Russ just says "Nothing that matters now"). Corax does talk about his doubts to Russ, but Russ is near dead at the time, and Russ later gets up and speaks briefly to Corax and his Jarls, but collapses again before he says much. Navar Hef is a lieutenant of the Raptors, one of the ones who degenerates, seen in Deliverance Lost and some of the stories since. In Weregeld we see him descending further both mentally and physically, ended up wanting death to end it. To elaborate on the epilogue a bit: Reveal hidden contents We see Hef now completely degenerated physically, though still on some level recognising Corax and taking comfort from him. Corax, now believing the primarchs, astartes, Raptors, all of it to be warp-tainted, kills Hef, clearly distraught by it. Put me in mind of the ending of The Fly, or certain scenes from the sequel. My thoughts in a spoiler-free nutshell: Weregeld has some good ideas and more potential than the previous RG novellas, but doesn't explore them fully and ends up feeling rushed. EDIT - More detailed feedback: Reveal hidden contents I've been okay with Gav Thorpe's Raven Guard HH stuff, though not a big fan. Deliverance Lost had it's flaws but I liked it, more than most people I gather, Soulforge and Ravenlord were okay but kind of bland, and as a whole Gav's portrayal of the Raven Guard wasn't a truly bad one, but lacked some of the culture and identity that other authors have given to the legions. Weregeld is, in a way, the best of the RG novellas because it actually does come to the issues I think work best here: Corax's doubts and concerns, the Raptors, the tragedy of their story, but it's also a bit too little too late. These plot points were present in Soulforge and Ravenlord but never at the forefront, and as a result they now feel rushed and crammed in. The ending in particular is very sudden, and some of the plot developments could have done with significantly more page time to progress and be explored. You can see from the afterword that Gav has some solid ideas on Corax and his character, but he just doesn't spend enough time exploring them properly. I think Weregeld has the meatiest ideas of the three novellas, and in that sense it's the most enjoyable, but it also feels weaker precisely because you can see that potential but it doesn't get used fully. If they'd scrapped Soulforge and Ravenlord and made Weregeld a full novel, or perhaps more accurately just expand the themes of Weregeld into those other two more, we'd have a much more solid entry. Oh and there's a Tyranid thing early on in Weregeld which is just weird and silly. It comes out of nowhere, goes away just as quickly, and has absolutely nothing to do with the story at all. It's so out of place I feel pretty sure it only went in on editorial mandate. I didn't mind the little bit at the end of Pharos, but here it's just bizarre. Reading the afterword, it comes across as the intention was to run the arc as numerous smaller stories, but as you say, I think that only came together right at the end. Soulforge is a bland read, liked Ravenlord, really liked the shorts that split them up and the last story was the best of the three. Reveal hidden contents I think they missed a trick, or I missed it, or whatever, but Corax basically has Primarch-level PTSD coupled with an intense feeling of betrayal - everything he thought was right has been turned on its head. He's seen the enemy, in Curze, and it looks like him. The traitor Raven in the second story is the first clear indication of that thread, imo, but he's been contemplating dying since Isstvan (thinks about going against Angron as, while he might die, he might take the World Eater with him). So the sudden moments of clarity amongst the despair, I'm not so bothered by them. And we also get a fairly definitive answer as to where the Space Wolves and Raven Guard were. The players are getting into place for the endgame. As for the culture - they don't have one, really, they're almost like the Loyalist AL - use of covert ops, use of civilian auxiliaries, things planned and planned and planned. So what's their stand-out thing? Patience? Military efficiency? There's a good description of the combined use of a Mor Dethyn observing a target, identifying the enemy commander putting a tracking beam on a bunker which is followed up by a missile attack and use of Dark Furies to finish the job. But that's not a character or a culture. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326287-corax-book-40/page/2/#findComment-4521232 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 On 10/4/2016 at 12:58 PM, Tymell said: In answer to b1soul's questions: Reveal hidden contents Sometime between Path and Siege, yes. Russ has left Terra and chronological references seem to place this in 31,011/12. However, there's no detail on exactly what brought the Wolves into this position, it's very much left open for some other story to cover (Corax asks what happened and Russ just says "Nothing that matters now"). Corax does talk about his doubts to Russ, but Russ is near dead at the time, and Russ later gets up and speaks briefly to Corax and his Jarls, but collapses again before he says much. Navar Hef is a lieutenant of the Raptors, one of the ones who degenerates, seen in Deliverance Lost and some of the stories since. In Weregeld we see him descending further both mentally and physically, ended up wanting death to end it. Thanks a lot I think Gav is a decent ideas man...but a weak writer His RG are about as bland as Swallow's BA, maybe a wee bit better Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326287-corax-book-40/page/2/#findComment-4521297 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 I'd take Gav's RG over Swallow's BA any day, if Fear to Tread is any indication. I liked that less than Deliverance Lost (which I am currently re-reading on the side). I'd say that in a lot of cases, Gav's style is less immediate. He writes slower things better than action. In general, I like his Elves and Eldar better than Space Marines. The scope and longevity of those races lends itself better to his strengths, in my eyes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326287-corax-book-40/page/2/#findComment-4521405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 When you say the Raven Guard don't really have a culture, is that a criticism of how they're written or a suggestion that there isn't much to build on? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326287-corax-book-40/page/2/#findComment-4522256 Share on other sites More sharing options...
caladancid Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 Personally I have gotten more insight into Raven Guard culture from the FW HH books than from the Black Library novels, novellas, and short stories. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326287-corax-book-40/page/2/#findComment-4522271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 On 10/6/2016 at 1:40 AM, bluntblade said: When you say the Raven Guard don't really have a culture, is that a criticism of how they're written or a suggestion that there isn't much to build on? IMO... A good writer does not have to build on a pre-existing culture The Raven Guard are not based on a real, historical culture...and there aren't that many books fixing what they should or should not be. A good writer would be free to craft a unique culture. He could draw on real world influences. I think subtly infusing some ninja or hashashin themes into the RG would make a lot of sense...perhaps incorporate some European philosophy about the raven. I dunno...there should be a lot of ways to craft an interesting RG culture Imagine if Wraight or ADB had gotten their hands on the legion... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326287-corax-book-40/page/2/#findComment-4522281 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 On 10/6/2016 at 2:41 AM, b1soul said: On 10/6/2016 at 1:40 AM, bluntblade said: When you say the Raven Guard don't really have a culture, is that a criticism of how they're written or a suggestion that there isn't much to build on? IMO... A good writer does not have to build on a pre-existing culture The Raven Guard are not based on a real, historical culture...and there aren't that many books fixing what they should or should not be. A good writer would be free to craft a unique culture. He could draw on real world influences. I think subtly infusing some ninja or hashashin themes into the RG would make a lot of sense...perhaps incorporate some European philosophy about the raven. I dunno...there should be a lot of ways to craft an interesting RG culture Imagine if Wraight or ADB had gotten their hands on the legion... Well, this was going to be my argument. I was thinking recently that if Kurze is Batman gone badly wrong, the Raven Guard are the League of Shadows if they'd listened to Bruce Wayne in Batman Begins and gone "hmm, maybe he's on to something." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326287-corax-book-40/page/2/#findComment-4522306 Share on other sites More sharing options...
no I'm alpharius Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 On 10/6/2016 at 1:40 AM, bluntblade said: When you say the Raven Guard don't really have a culture, is that a criticism of how they're written or a suggestion that there isn't much to build on? Mixture of the two. World Eaters, for a related example, are not much more than gladiator/bezerkers when you pull out to the bigger picture but there's a real sense of who they are and what drives them (both before and after Angron). I haven't quite got a sense of *who* they are, except quietly efficient sneaky types. Maybe. I'm not saying "yeah, make them all space chinook*" or something like that, but what b1soul says is spot on. Also, you'd expect there to be some level of overview from above, an agreement that the Raven Guard would be **something**. Even if they run with the "whatever they were before is replaced by massive levels of PTSD/survivor guilt and that's multiplied by the Raptors mutations", which is about as close to what they did do. *that was the vague sense I got as a kid from them - after they'd decided that the Dark Angels weren't going to be Space Injuns. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326287-corax-book-40/page/2/#findComment-4522414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 I wanted to read RG stuff for ages, but have been rather put off by what I've heard. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326287-corax-book-40/page/2/#findComment-4522460 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 I have finally finished the eBook. Verdict: Not too bad, but not too good either. It certainly made Corax seem like he was a pretty useless "Super-Being" with several scenes of his indecision and lack of fighting prowess. Not impressed! Reveal hidden contents ...I mean really, being beaten by a few Legionaires "superior" just made him look like a fool. Like he nearly got killed, plus he fell over for goodness sake! LOL Didn't really do much for the story line either, even the Epilogue scenes were meh. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326287-corax-book-40/page/2/#findComment-4522715 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 Hang on, the Corvus who minced most of the Gal Vorbak gets beaten up by Astartes? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326287-corax-book-40/page/2/#findComment-4522983 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tymell Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 On 10/6/2016 at 5:44 PM, bluntblade said: Hang on, the Corvus who minced most of the Gal Vorbak gets beaten up by Astartes? I assume Mellow's referring to Reveal hidden contents the scene near the end of Ravenlord when Corax takes on four "Legiones Superior" creations of Fabius Bile. In fairness, they're supposed to be bigger than Terminators, possibly as big as dreadnoughts, and armed with advanced and/or warp-empowered weaponry. I don't remember a part where he fell over, though I admit it's been a while since I real Soulforge or Ravenlord. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326287-corax-book-40/page/2/#findComment-4523016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 Reveal hidden contents he got shot in the leg and fell over. Not very awesome super being behaviour Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326287-corax-book-40/page/2/#findComment-4523134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tymell Posted October 6, 2016 Share Posted October 6, 2016 On 10/6/2016 at 8:55 PM, Mellow said: Reveal hidden contents he got shot in the leg and fell over. Not very awesome super being behaviour Eh, I think context is again important: Reveal hidden contents He gets shot in the leg with a sorcerous round of some kind, while charging headlong at the enemy, topples forward as a result, uses his hands to stop from falling over completely (while one of his arms is largely disabled from the damage a lightning weapon did to his armour), then gets back up to his feet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326287-corax-book-40/page/2/#findComment-4523154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 i think loyal primarchs getting effed up by their early encounters with the warp is acceptable- it's a level of danger that's completely new to them. as for legion culture, i broadly agree. a lot of the books i've enjoyed less have lacked that (most emperor's children novels and raven guard), though it doesn't take much to inject some in. take a look at the EC in PoH, they suddenly had a culture beyond "must be perfect" within the first few chapters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326287-corax-book-40/page/2/#findComment-4523272 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 If I were write Raven Guard (if the Brotherhood of the Lost ever runs out of stories to tell or I need a break, I may do so), I think I'd take the League of Shadows/Batman angle and run with it. Consider this. Deliverance and Kiavahr as of 30K are prosperous, free societies, quite at odds with most Primarchs' homeworlds. The 500 Worlds of Ultramar are comparable, but the Ultramarines impose a rather martial, Romanesque society anyway. To become a Raven Guard therefore could be seen as a remarkable act of altruism. You're giving up a life of comparable comfort for a life of war, and not the kind of wars in which the Luna Wolves and Salamanders win so much renown. You fight with underhand tactics to preserve lives, and often you'll be viewed with disdain for it. But it matters because, for a few, you are a symbol of hope. The symbol that you or your ancestors looked to when you slaved under the lash of the tech-guilds. And to carry that symbol, that hope forward, that is all that matters. I really want to write an RG story now... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326287-corax-book-40/page/2/#findComment-4523286 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 I confess I've largely avoided Raven Guard fiction because of the author. But every once in a while I read something of his that does impress but none of it has centred on marines. Plus some buddies that picked up wings of deliverance said avoid it at all costs. But if you're a Raven wing fan would you recommend any of the stuff in this compilation? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326287-corax-book-40/page/2/#findComment-4523294 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopkins Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Loads of POV from Corax, so I'd say yes If the 13th Black Crusade gets him out of hiding, he will not be a happy bunny Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326287-corax-book-40/page/2/#findComment-4523537 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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