the term "veteran"

[Captain General]

After playing Guard for several years, I am starting to wonder about "veteran" guardsmen. From my battle experience,  very few of my gallant guardsmen survive to tell the tale. So, unless a dozen or more remains of regiments are/were combined to gather,  or the unit was in garrison, how would any viable units survive to be classed as "veteran"? Unless I'm reading more into this than I should... ? Just a thought - not that it really means anything in the context of the game.

 

 CG

[Aeternus]

To quote from a old guard codex I have lying around - '...and have entire companies comprised of battle-proven killers. This is highly unusual however and after an especially hard campaign, often all that is left of a company is a single squad of combat-hardened Veterans...such squads are attached to larger regiments where it is hoped their skills may rub off. These Veterans may not be from the same regiment...'

 

I think that refers to the question you're asking

[calgar101]

During the English civil war and other conflicts around that period, veterans were considered any one who had survived 10 battles or so. Just remember how bloody warfare can be, you have your nightmares made manifest trying to eat your soul, an endless tide of bugs wanting to digest your biomass... So trooper Phil fights I'm the Optima campaign against the Tau and takes part in a dozen battles, a few dawn raids or night ambushes l. He could easily be closed Veteran by the end of it. During the battle of Stalingrad Russian troops with no previous experience would cross the Volga in the morning and by mid afternoon would have fought albatross as much as some of their allied counterparts after a few days.

[WarriorFish]

As usual there's a fair amount of variety in how different regiments work, but surviving a campaign is a good way to do it. Bare in mind that the regiment would have arrived to execute it so with very few exceptions this would mean fighting the entire campaign and coming out on top. That would involve a lot of fighting, killing and learning so in the grim darkness of the 41st Millennium's conflicts that's more than enough to create a grizzled and experienced veteran soldier!

 

What happens to these veterans again depends on the regiment and how the campaign went. As Aeternas mentioned some can be combined to form squads to attach to other regiments, or they could be formed into a veteran formation. If you're looking to create your own veteran system there's plenty of scope :)

[morroccomole]

From what I understand, when a regiment is founded they may pull troops from the local militias or PDFs. They could have served there for years, fighting pirates or lingering ork bands, what have you.

Also bear in mind, the tabletop meta isn't indicative of the fluff. A typical regiment in the guard might not see combat for years, or may be called upon to put down a simple rebellion in a backwater system. They aren't always squaring off against MEQs and Knights

[calgar101]

I would say the vast majority of PDF and Guard regiments could be considered Veteran by our standards.

[Quixus]

During the English civil war and other conflicts around that period, veterans were considered any one who had survived 10 battles or so. Just remember how bloody warfare can be, you have your nightmares made manifest trying to eat your soul, an endless tide of bugs wanting to digest your biomass... So trooper Phil fights I'm the Optima campaign against the Tau and takes part in a dozen battles, a few dawn raids or night ambushes l. He could easily be closed Veteran by the end of it. During the battle of Stalingrad Russian troops with no previous experience would cross the Volga in the morning and by mid afternoon would have fought albatross as much as some of their allied counterparts after a few days.

Lol. Did some auto-correct function butcher your post?

 

Also the attrition rate sometimes mentioned in books cannot be standard, otherwise the Imperium would have run out of people already.

[calgar101]

The joys of mobile phones haha.

Agreed there, I dare say every Commander is so callous and negligent.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

The joys of mobile phones haha.

Agreed there, I dare say not every Commander is so callous and negligent.

 

Seems to have happened again...

 

I suspect, that the "Veterans" in most regards are either the gathered survivors of shattered units, or specially trained troops, as in the Case of Kasrkin or Kreig Grenadiers.

[calgar101]

I would say it depends on the regimentsite and their command. You could follow the ww2 Russian model of running units right down and re building them, incorporating any survivors. Cadia, Mordia(spelling) and several others probably use veterans to train recruits.

Would be interesting to see when veterans from different regiments are rebuilt together.

[Servant of Dante]

After playing Guard for several years, I am starting to wonder about "veteran" guardsmen. From my battle experience, very few of my gallant guardsmen survive to tell the tale. So, unless a dozen or more remains of regiments are/were combined to gather, or the unit was in garrison, how would any viable units survive to be classed as "veteran"? Unless I'm reading more into this than I should... ? Just a thought - not that it really means anything in the context of the game.

CG

I can say the same for my Sisters. Every Sister Superior has years of combat experience (more than your average guardsman, but they do have power armour, but we all know how much good that does vs some lists) anyway, they tend to die all the time too.

In the extreme case we have the Canoness, who, while she survives more of my games than my Sisters Superior, does die a lot, but is also a veteran of "many hundreds of battles" (Codex: Sisters of Battle 6E).

I like to remind myself that when a model is removed as a casualty it doesn't necessarily mean they are dead. A good guardsman knows when it's in his best interest to stay down. (on the other hand, Sisters have a wonderful habit of getting back up even if it's the last thing they ever do).

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I like to remind myself that when a model is removed as a casualty it doesn't necessarily mean they are dead. A good guardsman knows when it's in his best interest to stay down. (on the other hand, Sisters have a wonderful habit of getting back up even if it's the last thing they ever do).

I myself have had instances during training where I said, "You know, I'm just gonna go ahead and not get up from this one..." Especially after I fell off an 8 foot wall. That kinda hurt...

[M@verik115]

Imperial Guard Veteran - An imperial guardsman who passed his 'to wound save' when hit by a D weapon. 

[ThatOneMarshal]

For me my mind immediately goes to cinema, the best examples being saving private Ryan and Bamd of Brothers. In Band of Brothers the original camp Toccoca men become veterans pretty much after a couple of weeks of fighting. They get some new FNGs and try to explain to them what to do and what not to do.

 

GW has never been good with numbers, for example the amount of dead at the end of Vraks was smaller than ww2 or ww1 even.

[M@verik115]

To be serious now, there is no fixed term until a regular grunt becomes a veteran. 
It can happen in a day, it can happen in a month and even a year. 
A veteran denotes that you have learned some skills that will make you a lot more effective in every measurable way in a certain theater of war than someone who has just arrived and is thrust into combat. 
Those skills can be anything from learning how the enemy fights, how the environment can affect combat, the interaction between different combat groups, how long missions can take etc. 

As someone who has actually served, you will find veterans are the ones who pack a lot more food and a lot less bullets before a mission. 
 

[Emicus]

Surviving 20 hours is a good start :)

[gideon stargreave]

You must remember that the tabletop represents the most glorious, legendary battles in the 10,000 year history of the imperium. There's a reason all the box art seems to be last stands of one kind or another. 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

You must remember that the tabletop represents the most glorious, legendary battles in the 10,000 year history of the imperium. There's a reason all the box art seems to be last stands of one kind or another. 

I thought it was because the Imperium refused to learn from history, and keeps trying to defend ground rather than take it. Most IG actions seem devolve into trench warfare, and become static, lending themselves more readily to said last stands, especially in the face of armies which can either ignore said static lines, or easily overrun them.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

To me Veteran is term that could be used widely.  A "Veteran" in command may be less combat capable than a "Veteran" in battle. 

 

In order to be and I.G. veteran I Think that would usually apply to 5-7 years service over 1 very long campaign or over 3 medium sized ones.

Then again it is all open to interpretation.

[duz_]

I always envisioned my vets as being the left overs of the last assault before the new wave of reinforcements came.

 

Pretty much if you survived first contact you get a promotion.

There's a BL story where Creed and a bunch of white stripe cadets hold off a Chaos assault long enough for reinforcements to arrive. It was their first battle and all those who survived got promoted to guardsmen.

[Arkangilos]

Also remember that just because they fail their throws and are removed as casualties, not all casualties are dead. They could be unconscious, or just seriously injured.

[sebs_evo7]

If we use the rules as an indication a veteran is just a trooper who has spent more time on the range and can be better equipped for his task

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Agreed, I think in terms of cadians, Grenadier Vets with Krak Grenades are probably the closest we really see to the Kasrkin (Unless you used Storm Troopers). Since Kasrkin are a form of Grenadiers, like we see from Krieg, and those are pretty much veterans. Highly trained and/or battle hardened.