Gaming Group encouraging using SM codex for AS, should I?

[jacqualine47]

I haven't played in a long time due to being too busy, but I'm getting back into it now.  My FLGS is formation-happy, and the owner (as well as numerous other people at the store) is encouraging me to play with the SM codex instead, because they feel it would be more fair and fun if I could use the formations, but they have a general moratorium on house-rules (IE: so counts-as and proxies are ok at the store, but no homegrown formations/dexes or apoc formations and no using AS faction units in a SM formation.

 

So should I do it?  David (the FLGS owner) wants me to because pretty much everyone is formation happy and he wants me to participate in the organized play events with an even playing field. 

 

I see my options as being:

1. Stick to pure Sisters and accept that formation shenanigans are going to be an uphill battle

2. Run a core CAD of AS, backed up by SM 'sisters' painted differently - or by converted unique units such as biker sisters

3. Go full marine

 

For the esoteric units, the FLGS owner's suggestions were:

Penitent Engines -> Centurions

Exorcists -> Whirlwinds (or Vindicators in a pinch)

Avenger Fighters -> Avenger Fighters from Flight Wing formation

Priest Battle Conclave -> Inquisition

 

He couldn't come up with anything for my repressors other than rhinos, and nothing for repentia other than inquisition.  Naturally, he is encouraging me to buy predators, land raiders, drop pods, etc and paint them in Sisters colors, but I think he honestly thinks it would be cool rather than looking to make a sale.

 

If I do use the marine dex, then what chapter would be best for Order of Our Martyred Lady?  Blood Angels immediately came to mind, given that they jacked our fast transports, hand-flamers, and inferno pistols - not to mention Celestine (Sanguinor)... but I've been told that the BA dex isn't up to snuff either and that I should be looking at a chapter tactics from the original codex: Space Marines - David's suggestion was either Iron Hands (6+ feel no pain being a stand-in for Shield of Faith) or Salamanders (fire and melta).

[WAR]

Option #1, no question.

 

I would not do the other 2 options, personally.  While they think it is a handicap for you to play with out formations in an Adepta Sororitas army due to the lack of AS having them, they are nerfing you by restricting the army you have. Now, I don't know your FLGS owner but my FLGS owner would not ask that of me or suggest I buy items not available in my army normally, in fact he dreads the day they are released in plastic because he jokingly says I will buy them all. 

 

Now I will suggest taking allies. Assassains, Inquistion, Stormtroopers (get started box has a nice ability), 

[dracpanzer]

Option #1, for sure.

 

I play double CAD SoB with 6 squads of melta Doms in Repressors when I have a "competitive" opponent. Trust me, you will surprise a lot of players with far less aggressive builds. Most of the "SoB suck" comes from players who never play against them.

 

Not sure what you have currently in your collection so I will hold off on suggesting play/build/buy ideas. But I find the stance of your FLGS interesting that they would rather you proxy an entire force of SoB as marines rather than allow you access to the SoB Apoc formations.

 

Not saying you need to or should want to use them, it just seems like a very uninformed opinion all around.

[Beams]

Honestly, sisters are still decent against formations, but you will be fighting an uphill battle.

Penitent Engines WILL rip through anything they get their hands on, but have a hard time getting to anything.

Space marines doing a list similar to a typical sisters list will get 350+ free points (transports)

 

Our advantages:

Dominions, Retributors get 4+ special/heavy weapons

St. Celestine and the Seraphim are really good

6+ invuln on all our models (helps hold objectives)

 

I'd still stay with sisters, but maybe consider allying in some things to boost them.

[Aqui]

Option 1 for sure. Once a Sisters player, always a Sisters player

That said, I'm not sure if you've seen the new Kill Team box game. Sisters do very well in it!

[jacqualine47]

 

they are nerfing you by restricting the army you have. Now, I don't know your FLGS owner but my FLGS owner would not ask that of me or suggest I buy items not available in my army normally, in fact he dreads the day they are released in plastic because he jokingly says I will buy them all.

I think that you read more into my post than was there.  Nobody ever 'restricted' the army I have  - they didn't say that I couldn't use the Sororitas rules.  They just suggested that I might have more fun and a more even playing field if I used the SM codex.  Money has absolutely nothing to do with anything in my post.  That said, I don't want allies - I like to keep my forces thematic.  For example, I would use the allies rules to have a Sister Sniper (Vindicaire), sororitas bikers, or something like that, but if I wanted StormTroopers then I would rather pull out my Imperial Guard army than mix it with my sisters (I have more than 5000 points each of Imperial Guard, Word Bearers, 30k Mechanicum, Tau, Eldar, Death Korps of Krieg, Eldar Corsairs, Imperial Knights, Adeptus Titanicus, and Grey Knights).  There was no ulterior motive or sinister design in my friends' suggestion - they just know that my sisters are my favorite.  Offering more options and expressing a desire for their friend to have a sporting chance is hardly the nefarious motivation that you seem to believe it to be.  To be absolutely clear: my FLGS owner knows he is getting my hobby money no matter whether it is SM tanks, paint, Infinity, or Bolt Action - and he is absolutely NOT trying to force anything on me.

 

That said, I'm still on the fence - I just wanted to be clear that nobody is doing anything untoward or trying to force me to not use the current codex.  He just thought that it was unfair that I'd be restricted to CAD and a lackluster selection when others are taking nearly identical units for close to the same points cost - and then getting free transports on top.  He really, really doesn't deserve the kind of righteous indignation you've displayed.

Anyway - if I am playing my Sisters Army, then I am playing my Sisters army - If I use allies, then I would rather buy/convert extra units to asthetically match my sisters than just borrow a fully painted unit I already own out of another army's display case.  So again, money is not an object and nobody has ever pressure-sold anything to me.  I also don't answer to a spouse (my spouse is also in the hobby and has never once told me 'no you can't have that') and have no limits placed on my hobby budget other than "Are the Bills paid first?"

Sorry, didn't mean to type so much - I just wanted to make absolutely sure that nobody thought anything bad about my FLGS or its owner due to some preconception or misunderstanding through which they misinterpreted my op.

[jacqualine47]

Not sure what you have currently in your collection so I will hold off on suggesting play/build/buy ideas. But I find the stance of your FLGS interesting that they would rather you proxy an entire force of SoB as marines rather than allow you access to the SoB Apoc formations.

The answer is: All the things. I have all the things. If I don't have it, then I have no problems buying it.

Built and in various stages of paint: A metric ton of infantry, 9 immolators, six FW Repressors, six GW exorcists, six FW exorcists, three avenger strike fighters, 3 arvus lighters, 9 penitent engines.

I don't think I'm a hoarder... but that's only because I have good organizational skills and a lot of cabinets.

I mostly collect. I've averaged playing around ten games a year if that - my friends at the FLGS just want to see me playing more often - David (the owner) actually has lamented that I only show up to buy things and never to play

Edited to add: The rationale for not allowing me to use the apoc formations is simple - if they make an exception for me at an event, then they'd have to let everyone use any apocalypse formation for any army, else they would be accused of being unfair and making house rules, etc. Our Apoc formations are tame, but other printed Apoc formations are not tame at all. The crowd there are very Rules As Written - but they are also friendly when it comes to proxying, counts-as, and conversions.

[jacqualine47]

Honestly, sisters are still decent against formations, but you will be fighting an uphill battle.

Penitent Engines WILL rip through anything they get their hands on, but have a hard time getting to anything.

Space marines doing a list similar to a typical sisters list will get 350+ free points (transports)

 

Our advantages:

Dominions, Retributors get 4+ special/heavy weapons

St. Celestine and the Seraphim are really good

6+ invuln on all our models (helps hold objectives)

 

I'd still stay with sisters, but maybe consider allying in some things to boost them.

 

This.  This is what my friends were getting at and why they were encouraging me to feel free to use the SM dex.  I don't get to play that often and am consequently not the best general - they just suggested I might have more fun using a different dex with my favorite models rather than playing on 'Hard Mode.'

 

Ok, I won't defend my friends anymore and will just look at the advice from here on out :)

 

I'm happy to try any purist list suggestions anyone has, but likewise if there are any ally suggestions that could be modeled/converted as additional sisters units, I'm happy for those as well.  There is an event coming up that I'd like to play in, but I've been warned that it will be full of decurion-type formations and very strong lists. 

[Brother Captain Ed]

That said, I don't want allies - I like to keep my forces thematic.  For example, I would use the allies rules to have a Sister Sniper (Vindicaire), sororitas bikers, or something like that, but if I wanted StormTroopers then I would rather pull out my Imperial Guard army than mix it with my sisters (I have more than 5000 points each of Imperial Guard, Word Bearers, 30k Mechanicum, Tau, Eldar, Death Korps of Krieg, Eldar Corsairs, Imperial Knights, Adeptus Titanicus, and Grey Knights).  

 

In fairness, the suggestion to use allies probably wasn't made from a modeling standpoint.  If you're using a "Sister Sniper" that's a Vindicare on an Assassinorum dataslate then you're using allies.  

 

OTOH, if you want to field a force that's completely mono-codex, then Sisters as written is pretty rough.  However, I think you answered your own question.  "if I wanted StormTroopers then I would rather pull out my Imperial Guard army."  If the appearance is important and you tend toward faction purity, it sounds like you're better off playing your sisters as sisters and your marines as marines.

 

Just my observation from your comments...

[jacqualine47]

In fairness, the suggestion to use allies probably wasn't made from a modeling standpoint.  If you're using a "Sister Sniper" that's a Vindicare on an Assassinorum dataslate then you're using allies.  

 

OTOH, if you want to field a force that's completely mono-codex, then Sisters as written is pretty rough.  However, I think you answered your own question.  "if I wanted StormTroopers then I would rather pull out my Imperial Guard army."  If the appearance is important and you tend toward faction purity, it sounds like you're better off playing your sisters as sisters and your marines as marines.

 

Just my observation from your comments...

 

 

I'm sorry - I apparently fail at English today and was not clear.  He was suggesting that I pick up the Get Started box with the stormtroopers.  What I was trying to say was that I would rather custom-convert a unit of sisters wearing carapace armor and wielding hellguns than to use the stormtrooper models.  I don't mind doing that at all, but I don't see how it is any different than doing what my FLGS suggested and 'allying in' a canoness on a bike (SM captain on a bike), a sisters predator formation, a tech-sister (tech-marine), or any other SM stuff.  When I say I want my Sisters to be Sisters - I mean that I want every model in the army to be female, painted red&black, and sporting a fleur - it has nothing to do with what rules I use.  Rather than 'mono-dex' I am 'mono-female-painted-black-with-a-fleur-and-red-robes.

 

Basically Option 1 and Allies are mutually exclusive.  If you think I need allies, then you are saying that I should use Option 2.  If you think I should go mono-dex and no counts-as at all, then that is option 1.  If you think I should go full-counts-as, then that is option 3.

 

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to upset anyone or be unclear.

[Servant of Dante]

In my opinion, using Sisters as counts-as marines is straight up heresy. I'm getting agitated just hearing about it (I'm sure they're being very polite and just want to help). Personally, I would never consider anything but sticking with the Sisters codex. If you really feel you need a boost, bring in some allies (again, I would use the appropriate models for those allies, see my comment about heresy), but I don't even like doing that.

 

Granted, I don't build the best lists, but I have a hard time doing well with my Sisters, but even if that is frustrating, I personally would never use the marine codex for fielding my Sisters. I would homebrew my own Sisters codex first.

[Aqui]

I can't really talk about being a purist - I have Sisters using the Legion of the Damned Codex and a Canoness counts as Cypher. That said, I can definitely see how your gaming group is giving you as many options as possible to use your Sisters and that's great

Ultimately, I'd prefer to use the eCodex that we have. However, if we ever met to play a game, I'd be very open to playing you. As ever, I'd only be concerned with ensuring that I know what model represents what, but other than that, then I'd be fine

tl:dr - do what your heart tells you, Sister

[WAR]

 

they are nerfing you by restricting the army you have. Now, I don't know your FLGS owner but my FLGS owner would not ask that of me or suggest I buy items not available in my army normally, in fact he dreads the day they are released in plastic because he jokingly says I will buy them all.

I think that you read more into my post than was there.  Nobody ever 'restricted' the army I have  - they didn't say that I couldn't use the Sororitas rules.  They just suggested that I might have more fun and a more even playing field if I used the SM codex.  Money has absolutely nothing to do with anything in my post.  That said, I don't want allies - I like to keep my forces thematic.  For example, I would use the allies rules to have a Sister Sniper (Vindicaire), sororitas bikers, or something like that, but if I wanted StormTroopers then I would rather pull out my Imperial Guard army than mix it with my sisters (I have more than 5000 points each of Imperial Guard, Word Bearers, 30k Mechanicum, Tau, Eldar, Death Korps of Krieg, Eldar Corsairs, Imperial Knights, Adeptus Titanicus, and Grey Knights).  There was no ulterior motive or sinister design in my friends' suggestion - they just know that my sisters are my favorite.  Offering more options and expressing a desire for their friend to have a sporting chance is hardly the nefarious motivation that you seem to believe it to be.  To be absolutely clear: my FLGS owner knows he is getting my hobby money no matter whether it is SM tanks, paint, Infinity, or Bolt Action - and he is absolutely NOT trying to force anything on me.

 

That said, I'm still on the fence - I just wanted to be clear that nobody is doing anything untoward or trying to force me to not use the current codex.  He just thought that it was unfair that I'd be restricted to CAD and a lackluster selection when others are taking nearly identical units for close to the same points cost - and then getting free transports on top.  He really, really doesn't deserve the kind of righteous indignation you've displayed.

Anyway - if I am playing my Sisters Army, then I am playing my Sisters army - If I use allies, then I would rather buy/convert extra units to asthetically match my sisters than just borrow a fully painted unit I already own out of another army's display case.  So again, money is not an object and nobody has ever pressure-sold anything to me.  I also don't answer to a spouse (my spouse is also in the hobby and has never once told me 'no you can't have that') and have no limits placed on my hobby budget other than "Are the Bills paid first?"

Sorry, didn't mean to type so much - I just wanted to make absolutely sure that nobody thought anything bad about my FLGS or its owner due to some preconception or misunderstanding through which they misinterpreted my op.

That's good to know, and I didn't think anything bad about him. My main concern is if you did all the work to convert the units what happens when the new Sororitas dex comessage out, you'll have models you could potentially not use.

 

The storm trooper get started was just a suggestion because the data slate available only in the box. I personally dislike the models and rather have the rules for using them from the dataste.

 

I don't use allies in my Sisters, either.

[Servant of Dante]

I can't really talk about being a purist - I have Sisters using the Legion of the Damned Codex and a Canoness counts as Cypher. That said, I can definitely see how your gaming group is giving you as many options as possible to use your Sisters and that's great

Ultimately, I'd prefer to use the eCodex that we have. However, if we ever met to play a game, I'd be very open to playing you. As ever, I'd only be concerned with ensuring that I know what model represents what, but other than that, then I'd be fine

tl:dr - do what your heart tells you, Sister

Ah, yes, I should mention that I'm not going to refuse to play against someone using Sisters as another army, I just have rather strong feelings about doing it myself.

In the end, do what YOU want to do, as Aquilanus said.

[dracpanzer]

I understand the necessity of not allowing exceptions, definitely a slippery slope.  Perhaps just tinkering with your list is in order then.  Not sure what you play, but I took the leap and left the Exorcists at home several months ago.
 
I've been playing around with this list lately.  Little bit of fun in an 1850 Pure Sisters Force.
 
1st CAD:
HQ- Canoness w/ Mantle of Ophelia, Rosarius, bolt pistol, chainsword (tank for Retributors)
 
2 x TROOP: BSS of 5 with two flamers, Immolator with tw/MM
 
3 X FATT: Dom of 5 with four meltaguns, Repressor

 

2nd CAD:
HQ - Jacobus (buff for Retributors)

2 x TROOP: BSS of 5 with two flamers, Immolator with tw/MM
 
3 X FATT: Dom of 5 with four meltaguns, Repressor

 

1 x HSUP: Retributors with four heavy bolters (with attached HQ's in Bastion)

 

Fortificiation:

Imperial Bastion with quad auto-cannon.

[Servant of Dante]

I understand the necessity of not allowing exceptions, definitely a slippery slope.  Perhaps just tinkering with your list is in order then.  Not sure what you play, but I took the leap and left the Exorcists at home several months ago.

 

I've been playing around with this list lately.  Little bit of fun in an 1850 Pure Sisters Force.

 

1st CAD:

HQ- Canoness w/ Mantle of Ophelia, Rosarius, bolt pistol, chainsword (tank for Retributors)

 

2 x TROOP: BSS of 5 with two flamers, Immolator with tw/MM

 

3 X FATT: Dom of 5 with four meltaguns, Repressor

 

2nd CAD:

HQ - Jacobus (buff for Retributors)

 

2 x TROOP: BSS of 5 with two flamers, Immolator with tw/MM

 

3 X FATT: Dom of 5 with four meltaguns, Repressor

 

1 x HSUP: Retributors with four heavy bolters (with attached HQ's in Bastion)

 

Fortificiation:

Imperial Bastion with quad auto-cannon.

Wow that's a lot of vehicles! (I only have 3 rhinos/immolators) Looks interesting.

[WarriorFish]

I agree, stick to Sisters. Sisters aren't alone in being left behind in the formation Olympics and Sisters are much more than Marines with slightly different rules.

 

The decision is yours of course, but that you felt you needed to ask suggests to me that you're not convinced it's what you want. As long as you're happy gaming that's the important thing, whether you adopt another codex or not.

[A.T.]

I haven't played in a long time due to being too busy, but I'm getting back into it now.  My FLGS is formation-happy, and the owner (as well as numerous other people at the store) is encouraging me to play with the SM codex instead, because they feel it would be more fair and fun if I could use the formations.

 

Is this because they view the army as weak without having really tried it, or because players with newer books are crushing you / not wanting to play because they think they will crush you?

 

I can appreciate the latter position to a degree having recently played ad-mech against guard. It wasn't even close to being a game.

 

I also get what you are saying about marine freebies, at 1500pts the astartes can match a 2000pt sororitas force model for model, gun for gun, and then some - and it'd be a sub-optimal marine list which still gets game-long rerolls on top of their superior stats (and the knight they can buy with those extra 500pts).

 

 

But all that having been said the sisters aren't entirely dead in the water and do still have a few tricks to leverage. Plus playing with them will make you a much better player than someone shoving warp spiders or invisible deathstars up the board. If you aren't getting smashed into paste every game and don't mind the challenge then stick with it :p

[Arkaniss]

You have multiple armies to scratch whatever gameplay itch you have at the time so I say stick with SoB and play them as they are when you want to play Sisters. I don't think there's ever been a Sisters player who got into the army as they were the latest OP offering... you know the codex is old and creaking so you know what to expect when playing a more modern codex.

 

If your gaming mates are concerned about how your old codex will fair they can always leave some of the formations and whatnot behind. Let it be a battle between codices rather than the latest formations, will make it a more even playing ground :)

[A.T.]

If your gaming mates are concerned about how your old codex will fair they can always leave some of the formations and whatnot behind. Let it be a battle between codices rather than the latest formations, will make it a more even playing ground

I think that is part of the problem the FLGS owner is hinting at - you can't really ask opponents to tone down their tournament and event lists.

[Arkaniss]

True, I guess it makes more sense to bring up the flagging codex to the level of the rest rather than bringing the others 'down' (through giving up formations and thus probably limiting some other players enjoyment) to it's level. Still my 4th option still stands, just as with all the other ones it's not ideal! We all know what the best solution would be but I don't see a SoB update coming any time soon sadly.

[sedibear]

Use an SM Codex? Why are you handicapping yourself with that crappy book? :P

 

I like the Sororitas codex because it's a distillation of a midrange/close range shooting army. No muss, no fuss, just the essentials.

 

Six dominions in scouting transports are a great way to drive this point home.

[Spacefrisian]

You should use the SW dex instead (hold your raging horses i explain shhhhhh)

 

Greyhunter units can have 2 special weapons while regular Spacemarines can only have 1. this means that if you run 10 Greyhunters you can have 2 special weapons, and when GW does come out with a brand new shiny AS dex you can easily switch back without having to big of a change in your models.

 

But yeah you also just use the original AS dex.

 

Now rage and burn down an option.

[Naminé]

Sisters in a CAD are plenty strong as is, even against the majority of formations. I personally feel that most formations are very overrated, requiring a lot of 'chaff' to pursue a particular gimmick. There are some that are very powerful, but usually only at high point levels. If you play even average sized games (say 1500 points for instance), it's rare you'll come across any problems specifically caused by formations.

 

There's also the option of unbound in such cases :)

[tvih]

Just play with C:AS :)

 

Personally I'll only ever play my Sisters as SM if the AS codex goes the way of the Squats.