Loyalist Night Lords?

[Son of Carnelian]

Hey gang. So I've spent the past year (truth) thinking about this and I wanted the board's take. 

 

What do you all think of the notion of loyalist Night Lords? ADB himself has said that the Night Lords never underwent a purge like the Word Bearers or the legions of Istvaan III. Granted, they did spend 20-odd years roaming the galaxy with no supervision, but the Forge World books imply that they still vaguely on the path of continuing the Great Crusade during that time (although in a horrible manner). 

 

So do the Night Lords have loyalists in their ranks? Are there those who would have broken away from the legion after Nostromo or Istvaan? I want your takes on this idea. 

[1000 Sons]

I think the night lords had a continous purge of themselves during most of the great crusade. If some one was praising the emperor too much, or negatively judging the way the legion was doing things, they would not be around long and no one would be out looking for Philip that nice and helpful night lord who went missing last night.

 

Though there is always a first for everything, a small force of night lords who served on a distant forgotten ship could come back and want to put a knife into curze.

[Soldier of Dorn]

This doesn't have anything to do with Kánon Oshiro, does it? I'm betting it does, man. I'm betting it has at least something to do with him. The timeframe fits, anyways.

 

Anyways... back to the topic at hand. Loyalist Night Lords... well, I have opinions on this. See, the way I see the Night Lords, even without the civil war of the Heresy,  as a Legion, in regards to their character, they were already on the path to censure and perhaps even the same sort of purging as the II and XI. As a Legion, they were far too brutal and inhumane in their tactics for even the Emperor to have tolerated much longer. I doubt, if the Heresy had not happened, that they would have been permitted to exist as a Legion 10, 20 years more, if that. I'm not sure if it's just my fevered mind, but I seem to recall in one of the HH novels, another primarch makes an allusion to this very fact (it might be Vulkan, in Vulkan Lives. I could be totally wrong though: it may have never happened.)

 

So, in my mind, as a Legion, there is no chance the Night Lords, and Curze, would have remained "loyal," ever. Out of all 18 Legions, they are the one who could not have not become traitors and renegades (I think even the Word Bearers could have remained loyal, if circumstance was different, but not so the Night Lords,) much in the same way as, in my mind, they can be no chance that Rogal Dorn and his Imperial Fists could have turned Traitor (I can't even read the Dornian Heresy as a result. I just can't see them turning against the Emperor, no matter the circumstance.)

 

But within even the Night Lords, I think, there could be individuals who buck this sort of trend. Certain Terrans, I'd imagine, might balk at the bloody tactics and traditions that the primarch brought with him from Nostramo. It would not be the first time a Terran Legionary had dispute with a primarch's policies. Perhaps other recruits, Nostramans, who simply buck the status quo and do not employ or appreciate the same style of fear tactics as the rest. There are dozens of reasonable arguments as to why a Legionnaire would remain loyal when his brothers would not.

 

...

 

That was a very long-winded way of saying, yes, definitely. I think.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Every traitor legion has at least some loyalists, so yeah if you want to run loyalist night lords, you can always find a reason for a small contingent to be loyal. 

 

That being said, I think the night lords had very few loyalist elements, certainly compared to SoH, EC, WE and DG who all had fairly large loyalist elements they eliminated on Istvaan III. As Psycho mentioned given the night lords would like be censored had the heresy not happened, and because they were close to being renegade every before the heresy started, it would be hard to believe many night lords were for the emperor. Far too many of them were just murderers without a cause recruited from the scum of Nostramo over the years. Plus, given the emperor didn't approve of their methods, don't think many night lords would want to go against their whole legion and fight for someone who didn't even appreciate them.  

[Lord_Ikka]

Oh...thats a good one. As the others have said, the Legiin as a whole was walking a razor's edge away from censure and probable destruction even before the Heresy.

 

As for loyalists, the best option I see is for a small detachment of NL that have been out of contact for 50+ years, either through warp issues or just being on a crusade fleet that was on the fringes (while being small enough but successful enough to neither need reinforcement or refit). Terran marines would probably be the main component, though the first few cycles of Nostraman marines would be alright as well- before the new criminal overlords started sending even worse murderers and psychotics as recruits.

 

The loyalists most likely would still use terror as a weapon, but I see it as more of "coming out of the shadows" and leaving no bodies to be found rather than the skinning and such that came to the NL later.

[Supe robot gangster #1]

Oh...thats a good one. As the others have said, the Legiin as a whole was walking a razor's edge away from censure and probable destruction even before the Heresy.

 

As for loyalists, the best option I see is for a small detachment of NL that have been out of contact for 50+ years, either through warp issues or just being on a crusade fleet that was on the fringes (while being small enough but successful enough to neither need reinforcement or refit). Terran marines would probably be the main component, though the first few cycles of Nostraman marines would be alright as well- before the new criminal overlords started sending even worse murderers and psychotics as recruits.

 

The loyalists most likely would still use terror as a weapon, but I see it as more of "coming out of the shadows" and leaving no bodies to be found rather than the skinning and such that came to the NL later.

Consider this idea thieved!

[Kol Saresk]

Most of that will end up being found in the Forgeworld books, but they do exist. There is a short by Gav Thorpe that does feature a Loyalist Night Lord, but I wouldn't recommend it.

 

I would however recommend Child of Night by John French, although it's still up in the air on whether or not Zharost is a Blackshield, Loyalist, or Traitor.

Put simply, yes the possibility exists. My personal opinion is the average Night Lord is more likely to go rogue and become a Blackshield because they are very selfish creatures, but aberage does not mean all or even neccessarily most.

[Confused Word Bearer]

I remember seeing an excerpt from one of the FW books that had a MkIII Night Lord and it described him as being from an expeditionary fleet sent alongside a Rogue Trader, and when they returned the Hrous Heresy had started, and they had decided to fight for the Emperor. The pic in question had the MkIII's helmet have what appeared to be a tears of blood look to it.

[Slips]

Oh, you mean the Crimson Sons?

 

http://i.imgur.com/1ERnF79.png

[shandwen]

Fyi one of the shoet stories involving Corax involves loyalist Night Lords, so in the fluff they do specifically exist. :D

[Kelborn]

In the same FW book are black shields mentioned for the first time. There is a side box about splitter factions of the different legion, for example a band of Wolves going rampage on civilians and a night lord force who fought against either DG or SoH traitors.

[Sete]

In the same FW book are black shields mentioned for the first time. There is a side box about splitter factions of the different legion, for example a band of Wolves going rampage on civilians and a night lord force who fought against either DG or SoH traitors.

Yep, they were around.

[Aeternus]

I've always held true to the belief there is a small amount of 'loyal' night lords, indeed that was the original idea for my company (never got round to writing the fluff properly). I think there's a fair chance the Terran marines would stay somewhat more 'loyal'. Perhaps not to the point of going out of their way to serve the Emperor and fight the traitor legions, but they'd baulk at what the Nostraman legionnaires were like, especially those recruited later once the planet slipped back into anarchy.

 

Admittedly I base quite a lot of this around Fel Zharost, and the general legion ideology. They've never served anyone but themselves, and if they decide that they don't want to follow the rest of the traitors, I'm sure a few might end up fighting them instead. Indeed the dialogue between Fel Zharost and Sevatar suggests that the Terrans and Nostramans aren't exactly the biggest fans of each other.

 

I have no doubt that compared to other Legions the VIIIth were never seen as loyal, but they might still believe they should 'help' humanity through their purging of system after system, and so might not deliberately turn on their makers. It's certainly an idea I'm quite fond of though. 

 

Edit: On the topic of purges, I think over time the Terran and 'loyalist' elements of the Night Lords would have been culled naturally. Since murder-duels were common, and they were probably the legion to feel the sense of brotherhood the least, it would be quite easy for the 'loyalist' elements to disappear over time. Otherwise they may have been sent off on their own missions away from the main fleets, or relegated to guard duty on Tenebor (the moon). 

[Idomeneus]

In the various NL shorts by A D-B the things that have really come across in the legion character are a sense of self loathing and a deep and abiding ambivalence to all other beings, be they mortals, brother astartes or primarchs. The Night Lords don't torture just because they like it, they torture because it allows them to express their hatred of what they have become as a legion even as they sink deeper into depravity. They see no reason to spare lives because on a cellular level they don't care, they will kill and betray just to see the look on the faces of their victims. I could see a loyalist element along these lines, a group of detached murderers making war on their father just to see what will happen, what it would feel like. I feel a lot of loyalist elements of traitor legions are written as older warriors who can remember before their legions became unbalanced, steady old warriors. It's a cool trope, but I would like to see some loyalist elements just as bad or worse than those who follow Horus, though obviously there needs to be more work on motivation than "good" loyalists. This is the Horus Heresy, there should be monsters on both sides.

[Jareddm]

Personally, I find any of the lore on legion purges to be irrelevant. All they do is shift the ratio of Loyalist:Traitor:Other within a legion, but none of those three categories will ever be zero.

 

How big is a particular category? Big enough to make an army out of. So unless someone plans on modeling an entire battalion or more's worth of marines, I don't think it should be a factor in whether or not an army idea fits the lore.

[Confused Word Bearer]

Oh, you mean the Crimson Sons?

 

http://i.imgur.com/1ERnF79.png

That's the one!

[The_son_of_Dorn]

There was this one guy they recruited. Think his name was Wayne, Bruce Wayne. His parents had been killed in a ruthless under-hive gang activity and they recruited the child. He wen't on to disown the league of shadows Night lords and was rescued by his familiy servitor named Alfred.

 

He removed his gene-seed and began to create his own vigilante team and operates in secret from his manor to this day. 

[helterskelter]

There's a raven guard short with a loyalist night lord

[Kelborn]

And (referring to RobMac) some NL shenanigans with the Carcharodons. ;)

[Hyaenidae]

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Fel_Zharost

 

Read Child of Night, and learn of the ways of the Old VIII. Learn of the scales, of the judgment passed, of Justice Blinded. Learn of disciplie and balance, and see what the VIII should have been, who they were crafted to be since birth. They were truth, unclouded. They were mercy, so kind in it's cutting edge. They were just, in ways their kin and kith could never be.

 

Curze had sight, and it blinded him. His Terran sons, the oldest of them, blinded themselves, so that they could see.

[helterskelter]

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Fel_Zharost

 

Read Child of Night, and learn of the ways of the Old VIII. Learn of the scales, of the judgment passed, of Justice Blinded. Learn of disciplie and balance, and see what the VIII should have been, who they were crafted to be since birth. They were truth, unclouded. They were mercy, so kind in it's cutting edge. They were just, in ways their kin and kith could never be.

 

Curze had sight, and it blinded him. His Terran sons, the oldest of them, blinded themselves, so that they could see.

Curze's sight never blinded him, it was that others refused to see as he saw and never listened. And what happens to when people stop listening? They find someone or something else to talk to. And then the madness creeps.

[Hyaenidae]

... traitor Night Lords need not apply.    :P

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

I certainly think there were loyalist VIII Legion and the Crimson Sons are one example. The way I see them in my mind is that they drew the short straw from the beginning with a job no Legion wanted, but still did the what the Emperor required of them. In a climate like that, you're going to have some people start to enjoy it too much and the coming of Curze with his scumbag Nostraman marines only threw gasoline on that fire and signaled the death spiral of the VIII Legion.

[Kol Saresk]

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Fel_Zharost

 

Read Child of Night, and learn of the ways of the Old VIII. Learn of the scales, of the judgment passed, of Justice Blinded. Learn of disciplie and balance, and see what the VIII should have been, who they were crafted to be since birth. They were truth, unclouded. They were mercy, so kind in it's cutting edge. They were just, in ways their kin and kith could never be.

 

Curze had sight, and it blinded him. His Terran sons, the oldest of them, blinded themselves, so that they could see.

Stop you right there Heathens. Mostly because we don't know Fel Zharost's loyalties. I certainly agree that in the very least, if he survives being imprisoned as part of the Crusader Host, then he will definitely break with the VIII Legion. But, as I quoted myself earlier in the thread, personally I feel it is unclear if he will remain a Loyalist or become a Blackshield. My opinion leans towards the latter over the former.

[Son of Carnelian]

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Fel_Zharost

 

Read Child of Night, and learn of the ways of the Old VIII. Learn of the scales, of the judgment passed, of Justice Blinded. Learn of disciplie and balance, and see what the VIII should have been, who they were crafted to be since birth. They were truth, unclouded. They were mercy, so kind in it's cutting edge. They were just, in ways their kin and kith could never be.

 

Curze had sight, and it blinded him. His Terran sons, the oldest of them, blinded themselves, so that they could see.

 

*Loud sweating.*

 

Heathens, sir, I've been researching this topic for a year for a very specific project and I literally have no idea what most of that means. Going to re-read Child of Night now. 

 

I'm still unsure by what you mean about "blinding themselves?" Are you saying you perceive that the they willfully ignored the legion's descent into cruelty? If so, do you think any raised objections?