Loyalist Night Lords?

[Kol Saresk]

I actually have to wonder what the composition of the Legion was. I know we as fans and the authors at BL typically polarize the Legion(and all Legions if we're honest) as just being Terran and Nostraman even though they recruited from almost every world they came across. Especially after they destroyed Nostramo. It just seems very weird that a Legion with such a broad, varying recruitment pool has such a small racial divide as just "Terran" and "Nostraman". Granted, it could be they just perpetuate the Nostraman culture so even though they come from different planets and cultures, everyone thinks of themselves as "Nostraman".

 

Anyway, the point of this rambling is that I would actually see the Loyalists coming more from those "minorities" that resented the Legion that tore them from their families and homes, but upon seeing the contrast(or at least propaganda contrast) between the Legion and the Imperium, they may have seen the Imperium as a better hopeful to the Legion, especially Horus just unshackled the VIII and gave them full reign.

[Son of Carnelian]

 

Anyway, the point of this rambling is that I would actually see the Loyalists coming more from those "minorities" that resented the Legion that tore them from their families and homes, but upon seeing the contrast(or at least propaganda contrast) between the Legion and the Imperium, they may have seen the Imperium as a better hopeful to the Legion, especially Horus just unshackled the VIII and gave them full reign.

 

Funny you would mention that. The idea I'm batting around (and have been working on for the past year) is mostly about a Night Lord from a prison sink where the culture is less "mafia" as AD-B says about the NL and more... "yakuza." 

[lanceqi]

Well I love the idea of Blinded Justice. Maybe there are certain number of Night Lords legionnaires believe that their father and brother's treachery needs to be punished. Kasati Nuon seems to be a good example of loyal Nigjt Lords and he gives us an excuse to run a total-infiltrating NL/RG shattered legion army (yay~).

[Hyaenidae]

Funny you would mention that. The idea I'm batting around (and have been working on for the past year) is mostly about a Night Lord from a prison sink where the culture is less "mafia" as AD-B says about the NL and more... "yakuza." 

 

Extra credit if you remove a finger knuckle or two on those who bear Sinner's Red.  :P

[Kol Saresk]

Funny you would mention that. The idea I'm batting around (and have been working on for the past year) is mostly about a Night Lord from a prison sink where the culture is less "mafia" as AD-B says about the NL and more... "yakuza."

Extra credit if you remove a finger knuckle or two on those who bear Sinner's Red.

They can be called the Little Fingers. :D

[Rob_Loken]

Funny you would mention that. The idea I'm batting around (and have been working on for the past year) is mostly about a Night Lord from a prison sink where the culture is less "mafia" as AD-B says about the NL and more... "yakuza."

Extra credit if you remove a finger knuckle or two on those who bear Sinner's Red.

They can be called the Little Fingers.

If they do everything by the book they could be called the Stiff Little Fingers

[rendingon1+]

Is there more info about these Crimson Sons? And why people say they are loyalists? According to these colour plate nothing indicates they were loyal.

[Kol Saresk]

Is there more info about these Crimson Sons? And why people say they are loyalists? According to these colour plate nothing indicates they were loyal.

Well, from what little we have(which is the little blurb that has already been posted), they were a Terran Company that had been operating alongside a Rogue Trader since before Konrad Curze was found. It is believed they were all wiped out at Istvaan V. Nothing says that they were Loyal, but out of all the Night Lord units presented in the background, they are the most likely to be loyal, or at least neutral due to having so little interaction with the main Legion.

[Son of Carnelian]

Funny you would mention that. The idea I'm batting around (and have been working on for the past year) is mostly about a Night Lord from a prison sink where the culture is less "mafia" as AD-B says about the NL and more... "yakuza."

Extra credit if you remove a finger knuckle or two on those who bear Sinner's Red.

You know it.

Is there more info about these Crimson Sons? And why people say they are loyalists? According to these colour plate nothing indicates they were loyal.

Well, from what little we have(which is the little blurb that has already been posted), they were a Terran Company that had been operating alongside a Rogue Trader since before Konrad Curze was found. It is believed they were all wiped out at Istvaan V. Nothing says that they were Loyal, but out of all the Night Lord units presented in the background, they are the most likely to be loyal, or at least neutral due to having so little interaction with the main Legion.

Yeah, it's all implied. But it makes a good deal of sense. Also, is it just me or is the Crimson Sons' armor a bit brighter than the average Night Lord?

[lanceqi]

Funny you would mention that. The idea I'm batting around (and have been working on for the past year) is mostly about a Night Lord from a prison sink where the culture is less "mafia" as AD-B says about the NL and more... "yakuza."

Extra credit if you remove a finger knuckle or two on those who bear Sinner's Red.

You know it.

Is there more info about these Crimson Sons? And why people say they are loyalists? According to these colour plate nothing indicates they were loyal.

Well, from what little we have(which is the little blurb that has already been posted), they were a Terran Company that had been operating alongside a Rogue Trader since before Konrad Curze was found. It is believed they were all wiped out at Istvaan V. Nothing says that they were Loyal, but out of all the Night Lord units presented in the background, they are the most likely to be loyal, or at least neutral due to having so little interaction with the main Legion.

Yeah, it's all implied. But it makes a good deal of sense. Also, is it just me or is the Crimson Sons' armor a bit brighter than the average Night Lord?

Actually the color is the same but they do look very unique. Probably due to their lack of lightening pattern and their ancient legion heraldry.

[Kol Saresk]

Or the bright red shoulderpad.

[Paradigm]

Silver trim helps, too.

As far as loyalist Night Lords go, I think there were probably plenty of them. However, I don't think the definition of loyalty would be the same with them. They aren't going to expose themselves. They are a paranoid legion that barely gets along together. Had Kurze not led them, they'd have broken up into factions and become reavers. (As their remnants did, before they got stomped/absorbed by the Ashen Claws in the Nostramo Sector during the scouring). If you hold the emperor dear, but you are paranoid, and a bit selfish, you don't let the others know, you go along with them anyway and stab the ones you like the least in the back. You'd more likely delude yourself into thinking you were maybe still serving the Emperor until you shot your first loyalist, than come out overtly in a legion that already enjoys killing each other.

The ones that have been portrayed as loyal were either legion outcasts, or their ends seemed served better alongside another legion. They didn't remain loyal out of love for the Emperor. 

That said those that seemed a little too loyal-esque probably got shot by their brothers in the back as someone else already posted.

[calgar101]

I really like the idea ofor Night Lord veterans who take it upon themselves to punish Kurze. Most likely Terrans or others from different world's, those who take oaths seriously? Perhaps they do not or can not kill their Primarch and will take him in chains to Terra.

[exsanguis]

The worst thing about the AoD forum is that just when you think you've made your mind up for a project, a thread like this pops up full of awesome ideas and derails it!

 

I could definitely see Terran veterans being unhappy with Kurze and the Nostramon influence on the legion. Having experienced the early Crusade and even the Unification Wars, they would hold to lofty ideals, as opposed to just being super-human murderers.

[Guiltysparc]

I think an interesting take on a "loyalist" night lords force would be something akin to blackshields, but using the regular NL legion rules if you wanted, that saw the warp-tinged atrocities being committed by the traitors overall and went all vigilante on them.  Loyal to the emperor in the sense that they shared a common enemy but not really loyal in creed.

[Carnivore]

This is a subject very near and dear to my heart, as I run a Loyalist Night Lords army as my main 30k force. A lot of interesting perspectives and insight have already been shared, but I couldn't resist throwing my additional two cents in on this one...

1. No legion was 100% Loyalist or 100% Traitor.

While some legions were overwhelmingly Loyalists and others overwhelmingly Traitors, the books have repeatedly illustrated/stated that even among some of the most loyal legions (Imperial Fists, Space Wolves, White Scars) there were traitors, and among the most obviously traitorous legions (Emperor's Children, Sons of Horus, World Eaters) there were staunch Loyalists who rallied and either fought on as "the true last" of their legion or as Blackshields. I have no doubt whatsoever that this was a deliberate stroke by Forgeworld/GW, as they wanted to leave open the option for every potential player to be able role-play whatever army they wanted to assemble AKA BUY $$$.

2. They've flat-out said there were Loyalist Night Lords.

Whether it's Kasati Nuon and his squad helping the Raven Guard on Carandiru, Fel Zharost abandoning his legion as it sank into the depths of Nostraman depravity and despair, or my favorite - the Night Lords savagely attacking Traitor forces during the Liberation of Estaban III (Book IV: Conquest?), there have been canon Loyalist Night Lords specifically mentioned. It goes without saying that there had to be more.

3. The Night Lords are arguably the most fractured Legion personality-wise and in terms of chain-of-command (not counting Alpha Legion for obvious reasons).

It's been pretty well established that the Night Lords have carte blanche to basically do whatever the hell they want, so long as they ultimately obeyed Curze himself. When Curze or Sevatar and the Atramentar aren't around though, the vast majority of them seemed to fall back on their traditional backgrounds on Nostramo: members of the brutal "aristocracy of the night" (nobles) or the hopelessly violent hivers (hive-gangers). If there is any legion were it could easily be argued that a singular leader would tell his Primarch to sod off and remain loyal, despite the overwhelming conflict it would create with most of his former brethren, it's the VIIIth.

4. Before madness truly took him, Curze showed Nostramo peace and prosperity were possible (albeit through soul-shattering terror initially, and after whenever he was challenged or defied). And the people responded POSITIVELY.

This is perhaps the single biggest factor for me that some of the Nostraman-born Night Lords, if only the first few generations of recruits who grew up under King Curze, could embrace the ideals of the Emperor and remain loyal. Going back to the earlier discussions of the early-VIIIth Legion being the deliverers of "blind judgment," I saw the Terran-born and 1st/2nd/3rd generation Nostraman Night Lords as true-believers in a "the end justifies the means" philosophy of "terror for the greater good" vs the "terror for terror's sake" of the later generations recruited after Nostramo regressed following Curze's departure. In my fluff, the mentality of my Night Lords, particularly their Praetor, draws heavily on the following exchange from the movie "Serenity":

The Operative: I'm sorry. If your quarry goes to ground, leave no ground to go to. You should have taken my offer. Or did you think none of this was your fault?

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: I don't murder children.

The Operative: I do. If I have to.

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: Why? Do you even know why they sent you?

The Operative: It's not my place to ask. I believe in something greater than myself. A better world. A world without sin.

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: So me and mine gotta lay down and die... so you can live in your better world?

The Operative: I'm not going to live there. There's no place for me there... any more than there is for you. Malcolm... I'm a monster. What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done.

--

Basically, I would imagine the Loyalist Night Lords know they are monsters, but they are monsters for a cause. Sort of a "better to be a monster of God than a godless monster" situation. They may even have hope for a better world, but none of them expect to live in that world themselves after they've made it possible (a la Thunder Warriors).

5. The Atramentar were known for their loyalty.

This one's a bit of a stretch, but stay with me. Every single mention of the Atramentar that I've come across in anything canon mentions two things: their skill and reputation saw them counted among the most feared warriors in any legion, AND they were renowned for their unwavering loyalty to Sevatar and Curze. So for all of the Night Lords' reputation for being a legion of back-stabbing, self-serving cowards, there was clearly a significant portion of the legion (at least enough to form a whole 1st Company) who were just the opposite. The same could be said for Kheron Ophion - my point is simply that it's not a stretch to imagine that there were those Night Lords who placed value on loyalty and serving a cause greater than themselves, yet were still smart enough to not walk around spouting those views off around their fellow Night Lords who might put a knife in them for those beliefs.

6. They totally become the Carcharodons .

So some of them had to be loyal!!! Lol... but seriously, they totally did.

[lanceqi]

6. They totally become the Carcharodons .

So some of them had to be loyal!!! Lol... but seriously, they totally did.

Glad that you mention the Sharks! I just saw the cover of a new Black Library novel and it shows three Carcharodons and a Night Lord raptor----not fighting against each other but seems to face a mutual enemy(which is not shown in the picture). Things are getting more and more interesting now.

[Kelborn]

The author did confirm that his novel is about Sharks vs Lords ( a company vs a warband) and other forces.

 

Would wait until it is released before hoping for an alliance against a common foe for those two.

[TRIBUN]

6. They totally become the Carcharodons .

So some of them had to be loyal!!! Lol... but seriously, they totally did.

Glad that you mention the Sharks! I just saw the cover of a new Black Library novel and it shows three Carcharodons and a Night Lord raptor----not fighting against each other but seems to face a mutual enemy(which is not shown in the picture). Things are getting more and more interesting now.

Yes... The pale skin. The black eyes...the love for massacres and terror...it's so obvious. :)

[Son of Carnelian]

Thanks for the continued input guys. I find it really valuable to my writing. (Watch this space!)

[Hyaenidae]

My money is on the Sharks hailing from the old Pale Nomads of the XIX Legion, I'm afraid. Far too many coincidences to not be true, from style, to methods of warfare, to customs and culture. The Carcharodons Astra are the cast-outs of the Raven Guard, pure and simple. I could see an outcast loyalist VIII Legionnaire joining and being absorbed by the Predation Fleet (and I'm suspecting the wider Legion/Warbands might absorb more, here and there), his gene-seed eventually becoming part of the later Chapter, but not much more than that.

 

Of course, there are other options too. There are later Chapters that hold traditions of hiding their faces and identities, and anything may be possible with these groups' ancestry. If my memory serves right, there is a Chapter of the old IX Legion that always have their faces covered and helms slotted.......

 

Edit: Yes, I'm encouraging an impossible conspiracy theory that the Angels Sanguine are of VIII stock. Because, giraffes. 

[Cerbero666]

Well, you have examples of loyalist Night Lords in guys like Fel Zharost from Child of Night and Kasati Nuon from The Value of Fear. Both of them fight with the loyalists against the traitors (Zharost a knight-errant and Nuon with the Raven Guard).

 

Anyway you could create your own excuse for a loyalist group of Night Lords. If my own example offers you any help, my loyalist Night Lords are just a destroyer squad, the Silentia. They openly opposed the destruction of Nostramo, stating that Curze was weak because instead of retaking the planet and restoring order, he just vanished it from existence, the "easy way". They were imprisoned and tortured because of this (All of the members except their sargeant with their tongues cutted, and other nasty stuff), during a loooong time. That was, ironically, what saved them, because the ship they were imprisoned in was attacked by the Dark Angels. The wreckage was later found by a group of loyalists World Eaters wandering since Istvaan III, with the Silentia still alive inside, forgotten by both their former traitor brothers and the loyalist Dark Angels. After an offer made by the WE captain they joined ranks with them, looking for revenge. For now its just the sketch idea, but I pretend to write them more as reluclantly heroes, maybe progressing eventually to truly conviced loyalists when they join forces with other loyal legions, leaving their old ways behind.

[Kol Saresk]

Where does Zharost become a knight-errant? Is there a story I missed?

[Hyaenidae]

Where does Zharost become a knight-errant? Is there a story I missed?

 

Not stated, only assumed so far. There's really only one group digging up old ghosts on Terra to find diamonds in the rough, after all. But still, it's not been implicitly stated yet.

 

Personally, I figured he was picked up by the newly-born Legio Bolter and Chainsword....  :P

[helterskelter]

There is a list of knight errants somewhere and there is a night lord on it. 95% certain