Kol Saresk Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 Well I know there is a list of the Crusader Host in the Purge and Fel Zharost is the VIII Legion representative on that. Meaning that unless Malcador or the Imperial Fists decide to release him, he is currently in prison. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326584-loyalist-night-lords/page/4/#findComment-4532748 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbero666 Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 At the end of Child Of Night someone comes looking for him, for a higher purpose. And since he's part of the Crusader Host and not fond of his primarch and legion I would assume it's one of the knights-errant taking him to Malcador to judge if he's loyal enough. IMHO it's pretty clear with the ending: 'Rise' (as a reference to 'Arise, Sir'). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326584-loyalist-night-lords/page/4/#findComment-4532761 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Heinrich Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 6. They totally become the Carcharodons . So some of them had to be loyal!!! Lol... but seriously, they totally did. Glad that you mention the Sharks! I just saw the cover of a new Black Library novel and it shows three Carcharodons and a Night Lord raptor----not fighting against each other but seems to face a mutual enemy(which is not shown in the picture). Things are getting more and more interesting now. Yes... The pale skin. The black eyes...the love for massacres and terror...it's so obvious. This is still being debated? Carcharodons are 100% descended from RG Predation Fleets. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326584-loyalist-night-lords/page/4/#findComment-4532821 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calas Typhon Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 6. They totally become the Carcharodons . So some of them had to be loyal!!! Lol... but seriously, they totally did. Glad that you mention the Sharks! I just saw the cover of a new Black Library novel and it shows three Carcharodons and a Night Lord raptor----not fighting against each other but seems to face a mutual enemy(which is not shown in the picture). Things are getting more and more interesting now. Yes... The pale skin. The black eyes...the love for massacres and terror...it's so obvious. This is still being debated? Carcharodons are 100% descended from RG Predation Fleets. Will be debated until it is 100% set in stone mentioned. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326584-loyalist-night-lords/page/4/#findComment-4532833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 You mean like the Raven Guard Contemptor? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326584-loyalist-night-lords/page/4/#findComment-4532849 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calas Typhon Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 You mean like the Raven Guard Contemptor? I mean like the mass amount of inconsistencies are addressed by Black Library if they were Raven Guard. Designs mean very little with so many chapters and factions within the Astartes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326584-loyalist-night-lords/page/4/#findComment-4532853 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 Dude, seriously. Black eyes. Pale skin. Tribal tattoos and markings of identical shape and structure, pointing to a deliberate link. Savage headhunters, who strike, fade, and strike. brutal enslavers of defeated armies (see: Mantis Warrior homeworld). Nearly identical paint scheme. Nomad-Predation Fleets. The Pale Nomads are the Carcharodons Astra. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326584-loyalist-night-lords/page/4/#findComment-4532861 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calas Typhon Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 Dude, seriously. Black eyes. Pale skin. Tribal tattoos and markings of identical shape and structure, pointing to a deliberate link. Savage headhunters, who strike, fade, and strike. brutal enslavers of defeated armies (see: Mantis Warrior homeworld). Nearly identical paint scheme. Nomad-Predation Fleets. The Pale Nomads are the Carcharodons Astra. I never said they were or they were not, my point was that no matter what anyone says, until the inconsistencies are addressed or it has been flat out said that they are Raven Guard successors, people will contest it. There is a book coming out that could throw a spanner in the works soon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326584-loyalist-night-lords/page/4/#findComment-4532865 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradigm Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 The exiled Terran Raven Guard are confirmed in fluff to be Raven Guard Successors. Even more so than some of the Ultramarine Successors are.In HH:3 they are exiled to "Nomad Predation Fleets." IA:10 the Carcharodons are specifically said to operate in Nomad Predation Fleets. This being the only in fluff chapter specifically described this way. Do they outright say "These dudes are descended from Raven Guard?" No. They say they have Raven Guard Genetic markers. (AKA: RAVEN GUARD DESCENDENTS)Which is as close to full confirmation as all but a few lucky successors get. Combined with the black eyes, which are 100% NOT a Night Lord thing, the Xeric Tribal armor designs and the pale skin, with Raven Guard Genetics, XIXth Legion (Pre-Corax) color scheme, means they are 100% Raven Guard gene descended. All Night Lords have eyes without irises. (Still have white sclera!) Some Raven Guard have Black Eyes. Two very, very different things.If it gets retconned at this point it will be incredibly annoying. If you want NL-RG mixed forces we have Ashen Claws. Now, the Space Sharks aren't the only extant forces descended from the Terran RG, we know that at least the Ashen Claws exist as well. Paint scheme suggests the Revilers could also be of similar provenance, but have no fluff to support. Asking for a negative confirmation is silly, it's not often possible, and there are dozens of undisputed successors who have less confirmation than The Carcharodons do.There are zero fluff reasons to suggest Loyalist Night Lords are the foundation or even a large part of the Carcharodons. They don't use Night Lord tactics, don't share genetic markers, don't share any color scheme hints, aren't paranoid, don't have light sensitivity issues, and have jet-black eyes(again, NOT Night Lord thing.) This could change, sure, but it will need to be pretty damn good writing to make it make sense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326584-loyalist-night-lords/page/4/#findComment-4532952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnivore Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 In no way am I trying to stir the pot or further a pointless argument with people on here I like and respect (Hyaenidae, Brother Heinrich, Fortnight, etc.), but it cracks me up how worked up people get at this particular debate, and I include myself in that number. Honestly? There are very valid reasons to think the Carcharodons could descend from either chapter, Raven Guard or the Night Lords. Are there more explicit fluff reasons supporting the Raven Guard? Unquestionably. Does that change the fact that there are a lot of characteristics that fit the Night Lords just as much as the Raven Guard, despite nitpicking arguments like "Raven Guard's eyes are blacker than black, while Night Lords' eyes are just black" and the like? No. Does it also change the fact that Games Workshop/Forgeworld changes their mind all the time? No. Does basically everything at this moment say Carcharodons are Raven Guard successors? Pretty much. Does that mean that will be the conclusion at the inevitable reveal of who they are? Not for a second. All jokes aside, I have figured out who the Carcharodons are, and the answer is a master stroke by GW to keep both Team RG and Team NL happy, because it means all of us are right and wrong at the same time. Ready? It's the Ashen Claws. Original, exiled "Xeric" Raven Guard, who ravaged the Nostramo system and harvested NL geneseed and gave the strongest Night Lords they faced a choice: join or die. Factor in thousands of years of isolation, cultural blending and genetic drift between the two geneseeds, coupled with some faith-restoring vision of the Emperor that brings them back into the Imperial fold, and boom.... Carcharodons. There is no debate on this, there is no question. Ashen Claws = Carcharodons Astra. It's a waste of time trying to refute this ironclad theory, so I'll just declare this debate resolved permanently and we can move on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326584-loyalist-night-lords/page/4/#findComment-4533038 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 And then watch it be Salamanders who have never been exposed to serious amounts of radiation, thus resulting in their skin never having darkened. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326584-loyalist-night-lords/page/4/#findComment-4533044 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradigm Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 To be fair, Ashen Claws could be a source for the Space Sharks, but the Ashen Claws are one of several chapters exiled to Nomad Predation. They probably made up less than half of the total exiled forces. And +1 to pointing out the futility of it all. Salamanders indeed! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326584-loyalist-night-lords/page/4/#findComment-4533087 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsovitt Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 The good thing about ambiguity is everyone can be right :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326584-loyalist-night-lords/page/4/#findComment-4533179 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyberos the Red Wake Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Will be debated until it is 100% set in stone mentioned. "Gene-seed (Predecessor): ...... Unknown [some recorded gene-seed indicators point to the Raven Guard] (sic)" - Imperial Armour 10, page 114 "Legate Inquisitor Frain's examination of gene-seed samples taken from the Chapter proved them to be untainted...and possessed of several markers found in the uncommon Raven Guard bloodline, a mutation of which may have resulted in their unusual physical appearance and be the basis of some of their traits." - Imperial Armour 10, page 117 "It is known that some of the [Raven Guard] were assigned to duties with a so-called 'Nomad Predation' fleet dispatched with sealed orders into the outer darkness around the time that the XIXth Legion was united with its Primarch." - Horus Heresy 3, page 140 Now then. How about one of you "loyalist Night Lord" theorists cough up even a single shred of evidence from an official Forge World publication where the words "Night Lord" are even mentioned anywhere in conjunction with the Carcharodons? Nobody ever has, because it doesn't exist. I don't know why so many insist on perpetuating this bogus theory when the words "Raven Guard" and "Nicor" are literally plastered all over all their data, with zero mentions of Night Lords. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326584-loyalist-night-lords/page/4/#findComment-4533228 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Do raven guard sharpen their teeth? Even if you go with oh sharks have pointy teeth so they run with that for fearsome reasons.. see that word fearsome. Fear. Who use fear. Night Lords. Also wait for the RobMac novel red tithe. I'm certain there's gonna be some indicators in there. It's like saying blood raven arent in any way related to the thousand sons because no one has outright stated it. If it hurts you that much to let others have a bit of fun with it don't try and spoil it Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326584-loyalist-night-lords/page/4/#findComment-4533241 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyberos the Red Wake Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 All I'm asking is for an actual piece of evidence. Did you provide any page number or publication that mentioned Night Lords? Nope. Carcharodons didn't even have Fear in their original rules, they had Furious Charge. Are all scary armies in 40K Night Lords now? The quotes I provided even offer an explanation for the pointed teeth, if you'd read it more carefully. All I ask for is a page number and you can't even provide that much, when I've done the courtesy of providing three for you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326584-loyalist-night-lords/page/4/#findComment-4533258 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forward Assist Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 As others have mentioned on page 133 of FW's HH Book 6, there is a paragraph where RG outcasts raid a NL base, kill everyone inside, and remove their progenoid organs. Whilst the story is about the Ashen Claws, who's to say they didn't go on to become the Carchadons post Scouring? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326584-loyalist-night-lords/page/4/#findComment-4533283 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Oh dear sweet mother of Cthulthu. Not again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326584-loyalist-night-lords/page/4/#findComment-4533301 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Yeah, no, how about we move past the spacs sharks and back to answering the OPs Question? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326584-loyalist-night-lords/page/4/#findComment-4533303 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calas Typhon Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 I will make one final point, I don't want to continue the off topic stuff however I just want to clarify what i was talking about. I never said they were or were not raven guard successors, the point I was making was that without 100% confirmation, as unlikely as it is, there will always be people that will argue that their are possibilities to different blood lines. Do not presume that I think one way or the other and actually read what I say without making presumptions. Now back on topic, There was a recent release "Massacre" which showed the covenant of blood firing on its own fleet and Talos questioning the order just before the battle at Isstvan. So "Loyal" Night Lords in my eyes is not out of the question at all now with something even in a short story written down. Btw that short is definately worth a read if you liked ADB's Night Lords trilogy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326584-loyalist-night-lords/page/4/#findComment-4533341 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doghouse Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 I'd honestly say yes it is entirely possible to have Night Lord loyalists, it may not fit in with every single person's interpretation or bias but I would say yes you can. I expect some stuck to the ideal of their twisted sense of justice and whether it is remaining loyal to the Emperor or the Imperium over their Primarch who was starting to act more than a little sketchy before the Heresy. There is the purge argument but a handful of Astartes survived Istvaan III so I really cannot see why a small force of loyalist Night Lords didn't evade betrayal at the hands of their brothers. I'd flip it on it's head, see how they could use their Legion traits to escape their fate. Thing is you don't have to be a nice person to fight for the Emperor. Your morals may seem a little skewed from the perspective of the other Legions, your methods may be questionable, you don't have to be 100% sane you just need belief in your cause and the will to carry out the actions needed to achieve that goal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326584-loyalist-night-lords/page/4/#findComment-4533348 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Yeah, honestly I'm not sure if there is a "purge" argument for the VIII Legion. I believe it was Prince of Crows that said Curze wouldn't even have known where to begin a purge in his Legion, especially if he was just choosing those who weren't loyal to him. As I understand the material, the closest we get to a group of Night Lords being purged for possibly being Loyalist would be the Crimson Sons. What few other instances we have are kind of up in the air. And IIRC FW's Massacre BRB stated that most of the "purges" that happened at Istvaan V seemed more like assassinations and revenge killings than the removal of loyalist elements. Which would be more likely since the whole deployment of the Night Lords from beginning to end was to be in a position to ambush the Iron Hands, Raven Guard, and Salamanders. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326584-loyalist-night-lords/page/4/#findComment-4533357 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forward Assist Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Thematically, loyalist elements of the VIII who adhere to the principle of harsh but fair judgement has a certain appeal to me. I'm thinking Karl Urban's Judge Dredd - the one who 'lawfully' executes a villain by throwing them off the top of a city block - hunting down his treacherous brothers with a glacier-cold fury to bring them to justice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326584-loyalist-night-lords/page/4/#findComment-4533372 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doghouse Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Yeah that is the angle I'd go with. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326584-loyalist-night-lords/page/4/#findComment-4533377 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Charcaradons are a Sister of Silence successor Chapter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326584-loyalist-night-lords/page/4/#findComment-4533886 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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