What if the Emperor is reborn?

[MikhalLeNoir]

So with the end times approaching, there is talk aboit the return of the primarchs and maybe the rebirth of the emperor.

 

 

So what does that mean for the sisters of battle? They worship the emperor as deity, something he wasn't to fond of in the past. So if he returns, will he simply disband the sisters? Or will he fight against them as i could envision that the sisters and their masters could question if the emperor is really the person who he claims to be.

 

What do you think?

 

Very interested in the sisters and their allies reaction, so I thought this would be the best place to discuss this topic.

 

 

(If that topic was brought forward in the past "mea maxima culpa")

[A.T.]

The Sisters have been in this position before - on one side the Ecclesiarch claiming to be the true representative of the Emperor, and on the other the Emperor himself flanked by the custodes.

 

Suffice to say it ended poorly for the Ecclesiarch.

[Apothecary Meros]

I doubt that any loyalist would ever want to fight the Emperor himself (although I find an exception with Inquisitor Karamazov, if Text-To-Speech Device is anything to go by) although if the Emperor did return, I can imagine a similar event to the destruction of the Thunder Warriors - since things have gone on for 10,000 years without his input, I can imagine he'd want a clean slate to start from again, and simply exterminate the current Astartes, Sisters of Battle, Inquisition and other Imperial organisations and simply create another batch of human defenders to conquer the galaxy.

 

That would be, if the Imperium weren't in such danger. The extermination of the Thunder Warriors occurred simply because they weren't needed. In the 41st Millennium, the Imperium needs all the soldiers it can get to defend against the likes of Abaddon's traitors at the Cadian Gate and the Tyranid fleets consuming Imperial worlds.

 

I think the Emperor would throw out the Ecclesiarchy as a whole, for spreading what he would deem to be nothing more than heresy. If the Emperor punished Lorgar for praising him as a God, then I doubt he'd be much of a fan when he sees the Word of Lorgar has become the basis for the entire Imperial Cult. The Sisters of Battle themselves would probably do exactly what Lorgar did, and simply worship the Emperor in secret, no matter how many times the Emperor tells them no.

 

A.T. is indeed correct, as it's believed that the head Sister at the time was shown by the Custodes to the Emperor himself. However, I wouldn't be surprised if even the Custodes at this point believe him to be a God, so if anything, as a result of that battle with the Ecclesiarch, they'll pray to him even more.

[Servant of Dante]

The sisters will fight for the Emperor, and they will worship the Emperor until they are dead. Enough said.

 

Edit: something silly like the Emperor telling them he isn't a God won't change that. If the emperor sent someone to exterminate the Sisters they would just assume those people where heretics and fight them. If the emperor himself walked up to a Sister and said he wanted all Sisters dead, she may well be able to convince her entire convent to commit suicide in the name of their God-Emperor, or launch a crusade into the Eye of Terror or something like that.

 

Edit 2: you might have entire orders taking the oath of the Repentia for displeasing the God-Emperor by being alive. In any case, I don't want to see the plot line progress because any of the things I just mentioned (among other ideas I like even less) would just make me want to quit 40k altogether. Any major change in the setting is liable to wreck something I love about 40k, and I don't see much benefit of moving it forward in the first place.

 

Sorry for being so bitter. I guess it's because I don't understand what people are so excited about. I get that new fluff is fun, but I don't feel like I'm ever going to get bored with the current fluff, and I don't want to see my favorite parts of the setting ruined. As for the "just play in the past of the hypothetical new setting (i.e. The current setting), well knowing what happens next would still ruin things for me. Ok I'll stop now, I'm going way off topic.

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

Well one of the things to consider with the Emperor, should he return, is what kind of approach he might take. When he attacked the cult forming around him in the past it wasn't so deeply rooted into the entire Empire, the Empire was still growing. However if he was to be reborn he would be finding himself in a massive Empire that has had countless generations being forced into the worship of him as a god. His armies, his people, and an expansive church are completely ingrained into the current culture of the Imperium and the Imperial Truth has been perverted and cast away. If the Emperor is as cunning as he is supposed to be I don't see him waking up and the next day declaring everyone's beliefs wrong and that those beliefs must be cast aside or die. Many people would doubt he was who he claims to be and the Empire would split and the wars would destroy the Empire. No, I think instead he would take a slower approach and try to create policies to remove the power of the Ecclesiarchy over time while slowly reintroducing the Imperial Truth until a time he could build enough of a secular Empire as to not lose to many worlds when he completely denounced them and orders the eradication those who won't give up the faith.

 

The Sisters of Battle do not really need to be destroyed, only their faith in him needs to be. Yes I know, they would no longer be the sisters of battle that many people love without being Zealots but I'm speaking of what could happen if the Emperor came back (note: I do not want the Emperor to return). The possibility of approach the reborn Emperor might take. If you broke them of their faith and re-purposed them they could still be of use to him and his aims.

 

Edit: Noticed grammar.

[Scribe]

Pretty easy to think if the Big E comes back, he would be smart enough to use the faith of the Imperium to his own ends. God or not, it wouldnt be relevant to him at that point, as he would cynically use the ignorance of the believers to get what he needed done.

[Terminus]

Ironically enough, that faith he so abhors is actually the strongest weapon the Imperium has against the daemons now that his original plans all went to crap.

[Servant of Dante]

Praise be to the Man-Emperor of mankind!

[Naminé]

Ironically enough, that faith he so abhors is actually the strongest weapon the Imperium has against the daemons now that his original plans all went to crap.

Would it not be possible that he would change his approach this time around, and actually realise that it is a potent weapon against chaos, and encourage the worship now?  Better to manipulate the masses in such a way then to allow chaos to ruin everything again.

[Terminus]

I think the idea was that fearful and ignorant masses who put their stock in the supernatural will inevitably have those among them who will feel slighted by a perceived lack of attention/appreciation from the target of their adulation, and seek out more reciprocating idols. I mean it happened to Lorgar...

[WarriorFish]

There would be a schism - a big one. Not everyone would believe it was truly the Emperor so it'd kind of turn into Horus Heresy Mk II, at least until the Emperor started taking enough names that people realise that actually it looks like it is the big man Himself. Then you'd roll into Great Crusade Mk II as he'd need to sort everyone/thing out and re-establish his domain after the fracturing.

With GW inching the storyline along it'd take who knows how many editions to pan out. All of which also neatly not requiring any armies to be invalidated or even change - with the exception of the new models of course

[Blackarmor_redtruth]

This is all for 30k yeah? So, it has zero application for us in 40k.

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

From my understanding the OP was speaking of the rumors that we are getting Primarchs in 40k and speculation this might be a precursor to the return of the Emperor and wanted to know what others thought that would mean for the Sisters of Battle in 40k.

[Goonbandito]

I think the idea was that fearful and ignorant masses who put their stock in the supernatural will inevitably have those among them who will feel slighted by a perceived lack of attention/appreciation from the target of their adulation, and seek out more reciprocating idols. I mean it happened to Lorgar...

But on the flip side it also means if you do give them attention, even if its only lip-service, you have a bunch of super-loyal followers.  Imagine what the galaxy would look like if the Emperor hadn't of shunned Lorgar and instead let him be.  Hell, even if he just let him down gently rather than destroy his city and make him and his entire legion bend their knee before Him and Guilliman.  I think the Emperor severely under-estimated the power of Faith, especially when its the power of Faith in a very real and quantifiable things - The Emperor Himself.

[Terminus]

But look at how many "faithful" groups have their practices perverted/corrupted into something more akin to Chaos worship.  The Emperor doesn't really have the time to visit every parish to make sure the head preacher isn't a cultist twisting the words of the faith for his own purposes.

 

From what I've gathered about His plan, these were the steps:

 

1. Unify Terra.

2. Annex/make a protectorate of the Mechanicum of Mars.

3. Launch Great Crusade to re-conquer and unify all of mankind's holdings and cleanse the galaxy of most Xenos threats.

--> 4. Throughout push an aggressive ideology of rationality and contempt for the "supernatural" (see visceral reactions from early book Marines when labeling warp creatures as "daemons" rather than "warp xenos").  So the average citizen would react to a cult's advances much like a typical educated citizen of our own planet.  "Holy" sites and other points of weakness in the veil are reinforced by practical, modern development.

5. Slowly begin transitioning administration of the Empire to humanity, with the eventual end goal of the Emperor and his sons retreating to those chambers in the Palace except when they are needed.

6. Activate Webway project, completing the inoculation from the Warp, allowing humanity to swiftly and reliably travel the breadth of the Empire. This would also improve communications so there wouldn't be instances of a vague message arriving centuries after its sent or whatever.

7. Profit.

 

The plan started going tits up around 4-5, with the increasing machinations of the Warp powers no longer being able to dismissed as simply funky xenos, and the increased human element triggering a large wave of resentment among the Crusading Legions (who are these puny humans to rule an Empire we bled to conquer!?).  It still would have worked if Magnus didn't crap all over everything at step 6.

[tdemayo]

If the Emperor is reborn, I wonder if that very fact might indicate a change in his metaphysical status.  Have his powers and nature changed in some way, permitting his rebirth?  Does he come back with new insights about himself?  Maybe he wasn't a god before, but now realizes he has become one.

 

As to how the Sisters and other Imperial agents react, I think there would be a serious civil war.  It would be a smaller war, with more people accepting the Emperor, if his existing withered body is somehow renewed, and he gets down off the Golden Throne right in the middle of Terra, saying "Hey everybody, I'm back!" It would be hard for people on Terra to deny that.  Even so, many many outlying systems and organizations would refuse to believe it. 

 

If his body on Terra "dies," and he is reborn elsewhere as a mewing infant, then things will be a lot dicier.  The authorities on Terra are unlikely to accept his claims if they still have a husk on the Golden Throne.  Especially if for some reason the Astronomicon keeps working.

 

And if his body on Terra dies, the webway rips open, the Astronomicon fails, and everything goes to hell, then expect a civil war on top of an invasion, as Imperial government will effectively cease to exist.

 

Anyway, I hope we never see any of this.  If the timeline advances, it essentially destroys the setting as we know it.  No actual 40k future will ever be as satisfying as speculation.

[Warsmith Aznable]

The Emperor was Mr Secular during the Great Crusade, promoting an outright lie to unify the Imperium culturally and to deny the Ruinous Powers believers.

 

Things have changed in 10,000 years.

 

The Ecclesiarchy does unify the Imperium culturally and deny the Ruinous Powers believers. The Emperor Reborn would be a blithering idiot to throw away such a powerful tool.

[Arkangilos]

What was the outright lie?

 

I agree with the rest, though.

[Brother Captain Ed]

That there are no gods and that the supernatural is a lie.

The surprising part isn't that he said it, but that people believed it coming from an immortal sorcerer-savant.

 

P.S.: Ark lives in the City!  I just noticed.  I moved to Stillwater recently.  ...we don't play much here.

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

Well that would depend on how you define a god. To some cultures the description of an Angel would be defined as a god while other would not define them as such. So maybe from his [The Emperor's] perspective Warp Entities are not gods. Also he was big on explaining things through science and he might not have seen the warp as supernatural but a facet of the universe yet fully explained by the sciences of the time.

[Arkangilos]

That there are no gods and that the supernatural is a lie.

 

The surprising part isn't that he said it, but that people believed it coming from an immortal sorcerer-savant.

 

P.S.: Ark lives in the City! I just noticed. I moved to Stillwater recently. ...we don't play much here.

Heh, awesome. I don't play much, but there is almost always someone playing at the local GW when I go in.

 

I wonder how much of it was a lie, though. I mean his interpretations aren't exactly wrong. Maybe he himself didn't even believe they were gods, and he believed what he told others (simply extremely powerful Xenos from a different dimension).

[Beams]

There's always the theory that the Big E got rid of all superstitions and religions so that they would be able to eventually concentrate their belief in ONE person instead of many, creating a "order" god to fight the chaos gods.

 

Which pretty much happened, since St. Celestine is basically a demon prince, and the Legion of The Damned are his other demons.

[ArisenHemloc]

What would change in the Imperium when the Emperor returns? That's a bit difficult to explain because the situation has changed drastically in 10,000 Years. The Emperor may not approve of religion or faith in a god, but he's pragmatic and logical to the extreme. He'd probably reform the Adeptus Ministorium like Thor did after the Reign of Blood, making changes to things he doesn't approve of but not erasing the underlying belief in him. He'd reorganize the High Lords, straighten out some of the more corrupt/ineffective parts of the Imperium like the Administratum. Guillimen's changes will be kept mostly, the spread of the Adeptus Astartes is what is required because they no longer have the strength of the Legion. 

 

The big question is HOW he's be revived. If his physical body died, would he just get back up like Vulkan does? Would he revived like Sabbat does in a new body? Would he become literally a god of order? Would he be still confined to the Golden Throne but now able to rule/guide mankind verbally? All of these will create issues.

 

Then comes the question of what happens when he comes back. Would Terra become another Eye of Terror? Would his revival create a massive schism in his subjects? Who would believe that this is in fact the God-Emperor of Mankind? 

 

I would say though that the Sisters would cling to him and serve him eternally like the Sisters of Silence and he'd keep them to help the Inquisition hunt heretics and daemons like they do already. They're a failsafe in the church against corruption (sure they don't always succeed, but still) and he'll need them to chain them.

 

The real question is, what would happen to the galaxy on his return? Would he ally with the Tau, convincing them to help against a common foe? Would he ally with the Eldar, knowing they can benefit from their experiences? Would he run into the Eye of Terror to slaughter the Daemon Primarchs?

[Demus Ragnok]

.

[bluntblade]

But look at how many "faithful" groups have their practices perverted/corrupted into something more akin to Chaos worship. The Emperor doesn't really have the time to visit every parish to make sure the head preacher isn't a cultist twisting the words of the faith for his own purposes.

From what I've gathered about His plan, these were the steps:

1. Unify Terra.

2. Annex/make a protectorate of the Mechanicum of Mars.

3. Launch Great Crusade to re-conquer and unify all of mankind's holdings and cleanse the galaxy of most Xenos threats.

--> 4. Throughout push an aggressive ideology of rationality and contempt for the "supernatural" (see visceral reactions from early book Marines when labeling warp creatures as "daemons" rather than "warp xenos"). So the average citizen would react to a cult's advances much like a typical educated citizen of our own planet. "Holy" sites and other points of weakness in the veil are reinforced by practical, modern development.

5. Slowly begin transitioning administration of the Empire to humanity, with the eventual end goal of the Emperor and his sons retreating to those chambers in the Palace except when they are needed.

6. Activate Webway project, completing the inoculation from the Warp, allowing humanity to swiftly and reliably travel the breadth of the Empire. This would also improve communications so there wouldn't be instances of a vague message arriving centuries after its sent or whatever.

7. ?????

8. Profit.

Amended but seriously, there is actually the issue of what He'd do with the Navigators, Primarchs and Legions. As we now know, certain of the Navigators have some anxieties about where they'll end up fitting in this scheme.