So the blood Ravens are not descended from the thousand sons

[captain Angel]

So I found this little tidbit.

 

Laurie Goulding: "I know exactly what the deal is with the Blood Ravens... I also know exactly what the deal is with Revuel Arvida. The two are in NO WAY connected, and people need to stop reading so much into video games from ten years ago."

 

I hope this is false, but let's discuss.

[Dosjetka]

Where is that quote from?

[captain Angel]

From an interview with one of the writers.

 

I will say that I am not sure on legitimacy, which is why I am interested if anyone has more information.

[shandwen]

If the two are in no way connected that really need to redo much of what they have wrote...

[Aeternus]

Apparantly from something he said in The First Expedition forum, (this is from 1d4chan since I can't find it on the forum)

 

Freelancer: "The reason I'm going you throw that into the mix is because of blood ravens in 40k. I don't think we know much about the heresy battle bar the blood ravens parent chapter were involoved. If that's the thousand sons it would be safe to assume the battle would of been post Prospero. "

 

Laurie Goulding: It's not the Thousand Sons...

 

Freelancer: "So does that mean Laurie your prevy to the origins of the blood ravens?"

 

Laurie Goulding: "I know exactly what the deal is with the Blood Ravens... I also know exactly what the deal is with Revuel Arvida. The two are in NO WAY connected, and people need to stop reading so much into video games from ten years ago."

[Race Bannon]

Spoiler alert ...

 

Hidden Content

Retcon?

Edited October 15, 2016 by Race Bannon

[Olis]

While online ramblings are to be considered non-canon, this pretty much sums up how I feel about the Blood Ravens. The connection has always been tenuous and I have never considered them to be canonically descended from the 1kSons, even if a great many people do. I'd love to see a new piece of fluff that explicitly blows this old fan-theory out of the water.

[jeffersonian000]

Everyone knows that the Grey Knights are the descendants of the Thousand Sons, trained like Word Bearers, and lead by the Alpha Legion. The Blood Ravens are just ashamed that they have such a mundane ancestry that they drop hints everywhere to make them seem edgier. Blood Ravens are the hipsters of 40k.

 

SJ

[Knight of the Raven]

Aren't the video games and some Heresy novels full of "hints" about Thousand Sons ancestry though, often not subtle at all? Maybe the Blood Ravens should rename themselves the Red Herrings...

[Jareddm]

At this point, I don't care anymore. It's been going on too long and unless the truth is 100% exactly what people have been saying for 10 years, people are going to be pissed and it will be another case of "fan theories turned fact turned GW must've ret-conned it!" Just like the success of the Black Crusades.

 

I have other, more interesting chapters that may have been descended from traitor geneseed. The Minotaurs, the Death Eagles, the Sons of Antaeus, (leaving off the others because I don't believe they're traitor geneseed).

[A D-B]

While online ramblings are to be considered non-canon, this pretty much sums up how I feel about the Blood Ravens. The connection has always been tenuous and I have never considered them to be canonically descended from the 1kSons, even if a great many people do. I'd love to see a new piece of fluff that explicitly blows this old fan-theory out of the water.

 

I dig that attitude. I even mentioned that feeling recently in the Afterword of The Master of Mankind. I've been trying to explain for years that it's not cut and dried, but /tg/ especially tends to assume it's a personal crusade because "ADB hates the Blood Ravens" or something. Heck, I've said it like 800 times on this very forum over the last few years.

 

(Sometimes I Google "ADB Blood Ravens" when I feel a masochistic urge to see people being angry at me because shooting the messenger is apparently fun.)

 

 

At this point, I don't care anymore. It's been going on too long and unless the truth is 100% exactly what people have been saying for 10 years, people are going to be pissed and it will be another case of "fan theories turned fact turned GW must've ret-conned it!" Just like the success of the Black Crusades.

 

I have other, more interesting chapters that may have been descended from traitor geneseed. The Minotaurs, the Death Eagles, the Sons of Antaeus, (leaving off the others because I don't believe they're traitor geneseed).

 

That's crucial in all this, I think. The problem isn't that creating Chapters from Traitor gene-seed is some unprecedented "OH GOD!" factor. That was never the problem. There's precedent for it (that we know about, even if they know next to nothing about it in the setting) with the Cursed and Dark Foundings, and perhaps several others. 

 

The problem was always the "Well, we're the good Bad Guys" angle - always seen as the first sentence in many younger players' homebrew Chapters; that "We're made from the bad guys DNA!" angle that's ultimately a prime cliche' disguised as something unique. That always dovetailed into the heavy-handed revelations where it made the Marines somehow special, better, or more "interesting" that they were descended from Traitor DNA. 

 

When the reality is nothing like that. No one knows. It's an age of ignorance and there's not enough evidence. That's the point. Is it possible? Sure! The possibility is interesting. Are the Minotaurs descended from Iron Warrior gene-seed? There are certainly clues to it. What difference does it make? Well... none, really. Will it ever come to light if it's true? Probably not, because the Imperium doesn't and has never worked like that. Are the Storm Wardens descended from the World Eaters? There are certainly clues. What difference does it make? Well... none, really. Will it ever come to light if it's true? Probably not, because the Imperium doesn't and has never worked like that.

 

And so on.

 

Like I've said a bunch of times, there's a specific point the novels all went silent on this, and haven't mentioned it again. That can be interpreted however people choose, of course, but man... I thought I was being fairly explicit with my allusions and a level of explanation I knew was safe. But Laurie just flat-out said it straight up. He's a blunt guy.

[Sete]

You guys know what I've heard? ADB Hates the blood ravens.

I didn't even knew that lol

But they aren't TS Gene seed? Shame, i honestly thought that was interesting.

Edited October 15, 2016 by Sete

[Arkangilos]

 

While online ramblings are to be considered non-canon, this pretty much sums up how I feel about the Blood Ravens. The connection has always been tenuous and I have never considered them to be canonically descended from the 1kSons, even if a great many people do. I'd love to see a new piece of fluff that explicitly blows this old fan-theory out of the water.

 

I dig that attitude. I even mentioned that feeling recently in the Afterword of The Master of Mankind. I've been trying to explain for years that it's not cut and dried, but /tg/ especially tends to assume it's a personal crusade because "ADB hates the Blood Ravens" or something. Heck, I've said it like 800 times on this very forum over the last few years.

 

(Sometimes I Google "ADB Blood Ravens" when I feel a masochistic urge to see people being angry at me because shooting the messenger is apparently fun.)

 

 

At this point, I don't care anymore. It's been going on too long and unless the truth is 100% exactly what people have been saying for 10 years, people are going to be pissed and it will be another case of "fan theories turned fact turned GW must've ret-conned it!" Just like the success of the Black Crusades.

 

I have other, more interesting chapters that may have been descended from traitor geneseed. The Minotaurs, the Death Eagles, the Sons of Antaeus, (leaving off the others because I don't believe they're traitor geneseed).

 

That's crucial in all this, I think. The problem isn't that creating Chapters from Traitor gene-seed is some unprecedented "OH GOD!" factor. That was never the problem. There's precedent for it (that we know about, even if they know next to nothing about it in the setting) with the Cursed and Dark Foundings, and perhaps several others. 

 

The problem was always the "Well, we're the good Bad Guys" angle - always seen as the first sentence in many younger players' homebrew Chapters; that "We're made from the bad guys DNA!" angle that's ultimately a prime cliche' disguised as something unique. That always dovetailed into the heavy-handed revelations where it made the Marines somehow special, better, or more "interesting" that they were descended from Traitor DNA. 

 

When the reality is nothing like that. No one knows. It's an age of ignorance and there's not enough evidence. That's the point. Is it possible? Sure! The possibility is interesting. Are the Minotaurs descended from Iron Warrior gene-seed? There are certainly clues to it. What difference does it make? Well... none, really. Will it ever come to light if it's true? Probably not, because the Imperium doesn't and has never worked like that. Are the Storm Wardens descended from the World Eaters? There are certainly clues. What difference does it make? Well... none, really. Will it ever come to light if it's true? Probably not, because the Imperium doesn't and has never worked like that.

 

And so on.

 

Like I've said a bunch of times, there's a specific point the novels all went silent on this, and haven't mentioned it again. That can be interpreted however people choose, of course, but man... I thought I was being fairly explicit with my allusions and a level of explanation I knew was safe. But Laurie just flat-out said it straight up. He's a blunt guy.

 

While I agree with 99 percent of that, geneseed can affect personality, physical attributes, and stuff like that.

 

I never really bought into the Blood Ravens as being TS successors, but to me it seemed possible because they had a higher rate of psychic mutations (or so I thought). So while I didn't automatically attribute them as such, I could see it as explainable and believable. 

[grailkeeper]

I prefer a few hints and winks here and there, rather than a clear answer. Part of the mystery is what draws me to 40k. Its a universe of misunderstood halftruths, rumours and lies. I'd much rather stuff like that was left murky. Its the same with the missing primarchs. I'd much rather speculate than know the truth,

[Phoebus]

I've never been emotionally invested in the idea that the Blood Ravens are somehow descended from the Thousand Sons. At the end of the day, as fascinated as I am about the background of this fictional universe, the Blood Ravens only occupy my thoughts when someone brings them up.

 

That having been said...

 

While I respect the hell out of Laurie Goulding's perspective, authority in the setting, and willingness to engage with us, him saying people should pay less attention to video games strikes me as disingenuous. People casually offered conjecture about the Blood Ravens and their origins when the Dawn of War games were in fashion. People didn't start talking with conviction about the Ravens' links to the Thousand Sons until the novel A Thousand Sons came out. It would take a very persuasive argument to get me to believe that Graham McNeill didn't know exactly what he was doing when he used such specific iconography and what appeared to be deliberate allusions to that future Chapter.

 

That, and a couple of posts after the above, Laurie offered this:

 

http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_First_Expedition/index.php?showtopic=1954&view=findpost&p=40000750

 

Perhaps the hints mentioned earlier were not a red herring, but the amount of talk and assuredness on the matter ruined the intended sense of mystery? Or perhaps the herring was too red, and the guardians of the lore had to shut it down publicly?

Edited October 19, 2016 by Phoebus

[bluntblade]

ADB, are you handling Arvida? I've become quite fond of him over the course of PoH

[Canadian_F_H]

I choose to believe they are TS successors. The setting may be unaware of it, and the authors may deny it, but that is exactly as it should be.

 

I demand confirmation, such that my demands shall never be fulfilled so that I may continue to enjoy my mysterious origin theory... the mystery is the damned point folks, so deny away!

 

 

 

PS it's better than the other theory that they are one of the lost legions... sheesh.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Canadian_F_H

[Joe]

I've never been emotionally invested in the idea that the Blood Ravens are somehow descended from the Thousand Sons. At the end of the day, as fascinated as I am about the background of this fictional universe, the Blood Ravens only occupy my thoughts when someone brings them up.

 

That having been said...

 

While I respect the hell out of Laurie Goulding's perspective, authority in the setting, and willingness to engage with us, him saying people should pay less attention to video games strikes me as disingenuous. People casually offered conjecture about the Blood Ravens and their origins when the Dawn of War games were in fashion. People didn't start talking with conviction about the Ravens' links to the Thousand Sons until the novel A Thousand Sons came out. It would take a very persuasive argument to get me to believe that Graham McNeill didn't know exactly what he was doing when he used such specific iconography and what appeared to be deliberate allusions to that future Chapter.

 

That, and a couple of posts later, Laurie offers this:

 

http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_First_Expedition/index.php?showtopic=1954&view=findpost&p=40000750

 

Perhaps the hints mentioned earlier were not a red herring, but the amount of talk and assuredness on the matter ruined the intended sense of mystery? Or perhaps the herring was too red, and the guardians of the lore has to shut it down publicly?

 

This is precisely how I've felt about the Blood Ravens = Thousand Sons theory for the past decade (holy hell, it's been over a decade since DoW?), and to be perfectly honest it's a theory I enjoy. It doesn't matter to me whether or not it's true because at the end of the day the suggestion of a link between the two, the notion that someone, somewhere was able to do what Magnus could not, entices me.

 

That and I really enjoy Graham McNeill's handling of the situation. I'd love to hear his thoughts on it, though. Perhaps we could con A D-B into getting him to register on the B@C? ;)

 

That aside, they could suddenly reveal the Blood Ravens origins in Dawn of War III. Say it something like, uh, "upon the wastes of Acheron, their greatest shame shall be revealed to them." 

[Cpt_Reaper]

I just want someone to treat the Blood Ravens with respect. No fanfic-gone-wrong. No BLUD MAGPIES...I don't care where they came from. I care about where they are now.

[Brother Casman]

Gotta say, that as my chapter of choice, I've never really believed that the Blood Ravens are descended from the Thousand Sons. I will admit that it is a fun theory to think about, in a "what-if" sort of way, though.

[Frater Cornelius]

Honestly? They could have descended from a love triagle between Fulgrim, Ferrus and my missing left sock for all I care. I think that is their shtick. They have no idea where they came from and part of that legacy haunted them. But after Retribution they were allowed a new start, leaving the past behind and moving onwards. To quote the first Batman movie with Bale (as much as I find it to be a silly movie): it is not who I am underneath but what I do that defines me... or something like that.

 

I feel it should remain that way. Focus on your faithful service to the Emperor and Mankind now as opposed to worrying about your past. This is why I like the BR. No matter who or what you are, we can all change for the better ;)

Edited October 25, 2016 by Immersturm

[SickSix]

I think it's a bit uncalled for for him to make a blatant statement like that. Other authors made clear allusions to the connection. So what if they were in fact delusions. Let the fans wonder.

 

To just come out and kill the mystery is a bit of a dick move. Would he also make a blatant statement like that about the missing legions?

 

What harm was done by letting people beleive what they did? It's not like their belief was baseless. Hints were made.

 

I liked the idea. It fit.

[Black Cohort]

Laurie has a habit of doing stuff like that, to me it seems sometimes like he does like people having the "wrong" kind of fun.

[No Foes Remain]

The thing is, that it wasn't just the games that convinced people that the Blood Raven's were decended from the Thousand Sons, the Black Library books added to that (that I am guessing that he oversaw?) so is he really that suprised at the reaction of us fans?

[Canadian_F_H]

The author of farenheit 451 swears his book isn't about censorship or surveillance either...

 

As a friend once said. "People, sometimes they do funny"