2 Missing Legions

[Legatus]

By the way, the entire notion that the two missing legions were absorbed into any other Legion makes no sense. (Aside from the fact that the author who wrote that line confirmed it was just meant as a wild conspiracy theory by a spiteful antagonist.) Legion forces can operate without a Primarch. All the Legions operated without a Primarch before theirs was rediscovered. So if only the two missing Primarchs were the problem, then the Legionaries could have just continued on without them. But if all records had to be purged, then it was more likely a problem with the Legions as a whole, or with the gene-seed. In that case all the Legionaries would have been compromised as well.

 

It is one thing to tell the members of a different legion that they are not supposed to mention the missing ones. But it is another thing entirely to expect the members of the missing Legions, whose Primarchs were somehow removed, and all the Legion's culture and identity being erased, that they are not supposed to further talk about it when becomeing part of one of the other Legions.

 

I.e. if the Primarchs were bad but the Marines were ok, then the Marines would have just continued without a Primarch. They could have even rebranded, if the Primarchs' legacy had been tainted. Them continuing as their own independend force would have made more sense than just integrating them into a foreign and genetically different Legion.

But it is also likely that the Legions as a whole were the problem, or that the loyalty of the Marines was in question once they had met their Primarch. In that case there would have been no Marines to "absorb" either, obviously.

[Terminus]

Isn't the current vague fluff that they are the forgotten and the purged?

 

Magnus was desperate to save his Legion from a mercy killing, Sanguinius did not want to reveal the flaw due to fear of being purged, Russ called his Legion the Executioners.

 

It's likely at least one Legion was destroyed due to either sanction (although what they could have done that was worse than World Eaters or Night Lords is unclear), or more likely due to mutation or some flaw in the gene seed. This legion is the "purged".

 

Theories on who are the forgotten?

[helterskelter]

I thought it was lost and forgotten as a catch all term for both of them, seeing as both legions are lost and are not to be spoken of or "forgotten".

 

They both could've had or done something that earnt them their doom. Lost in the warp/baby eating/exterminatusing every planet they came across etc

[A D-B]

By the way, the entire notion that the two missing legions were absorbed into any other Legion makes no sense. (Aside from the fact that the author who wrote that line confirmed it was just meant as a wild conspiracy theory by a spiteful antagonist.) 

 

I was more naive back then. From my point of view, knowing it wasn't true - and, more importantly, knowing from the lore that it wasn't and couldn't possibly be true because we knew how the Ultramarines were that size already - coupled with the fact that it's a Word Bearer making a joke that even the protagonist of the novel basically ignores, it didn't occur to me that people would consider it "information". That was naive of me because, obviously, so much lore has changed, so maybe people thought this was a (very bizarre? very informal?) way of saying yet more had changed.

 

There are references in the series where authors are, for want of a better term, conveying possible answers to a question that has no answers. And, in all honesty, that's not something that has worked well, and has caused friction and misunderstandings in the series and among readers (...see: Space Wolves / "Executioners" / Lost Legions). But that reference really isn't on that level, and it still surprises me just a little to see it mentioned. Even reading the scene again and again, the characters themselves don't take it seriously.

[Jareddm]

Reading this thread made me think it was 2013...

 

Edit: Or 2012, or 2011 or 2010...

[Terminus]

 

By the way, the entire notion that the two missing legions were absorbed into any other Legion makes no sense. (Aside from the fact that the author who wrote that line confirmed it was just meant as a wild conspiracy theory by a spiteful antagonist.) 

 

I was more naive back then. From my point of view, knowing it wasn't true - and, more importantly, knowing from the lore that it wasn't and couldn't possibly be true because we knew how the Ultramarines were that size already - coupled with the fact that it's a Word Bearer making a joke that even the protagonist of the novel basically ignores, it didn't occur to me that people would consider it "information". That was naive of me because, obviously, so much lore has changed, so maybe people thought this was a (very bizarre? very informal?) way of saying yet more had changed.

 

There are references in the series where authors are, for want of a better term, conveying possible answers to a question that has no answers. And, in all honesty, that's not something that has worked well, and has caused friction and misunderstandings in the series and among readers (...see: Space Wolves / "Executioners" / Lost Legions). But that reference really isn't on that level, and it still surprises me just a little to see it mentioned. Even reading the scene again and again, the characters themselves don't take it seriously.

 

Sure sure, that's just what Alpharius would say.

[bluntblade]

Oh come on AD-B, you know it was Icarion really.

[Legatus]

I was more naive back then. From my point of view, knowing it wasn't true - and, more importantly, knowing from the lore that it wasn't and couldn't possibly be true because we knew how the Ultramarines were that size already - coupled with the fact that it's a Word Bearer making a joke that even the protagonist of the novel basically ignores, it didn't occur to me that people would consider it "information".

 

Well, you are in the right company. Gav did the same with 'Angels of Darkness' and Astelan claiming that Jonson had deliberately not intervened earlier on terra to "see who would win". Arguably a much more severe issue (the loyalty of a Primarch), than the growth of the Ultramarines (which of course peeved me personally). And then there was of course Simon Spurrier, having a Heresy era Night Lord that hadn't really witnessed his own Legion's descent into Chaos later proclaim that their atrocities had been just as expected of them, and that the Emperor then underhandedly tried to destroy the Legion even before the betrayal.

I don't see the latter brought up any more, but the treacherous Jonson is referenced frequently.

 

I suppose the allegation that the missing Legions were absorbed by the Ultramarines is on the same level as the allegation that the Space Wolves had something to do with their desctruction. (Only the latter can be used by the Space Wolves to boast, while the former can be used to put down the Ultramarines...)

[Marshal Rohr]

The second legion did Isstvan III. Wake up sheeple.

[grailkeeper]

I was told in My GW that there is a story written, and it is fantastic and we are never going to hear it. Could be bollocks.

 

What I wonder is- what did they do that's so bad that even the traitor legions won't talk about it?

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

The more I think about it the more inclined I am to believe their geneseed was a failure. If you look at what happened with the XV Legion, if Magnus wasn't found and/or if he didn't disobey the Emperor to obtain the power to save them, they would have been a failed Legion as the mutations would have destroyed them. So rather than some grand betrayal I've inclined to say they had a degenerative defect that destroyed them and that by the time the two primarchs were found they weren't anything resembling human and needed to be put down out of mercy.

[Skalpynock]

From the shape of the hole they left behind, there's quite a few elements that can be inferred. For starters, we know all primarchs were reunited with their legions, and met each other, meaning they were purged after Alpharius was found. So no "he was warp-corrupted when the Emperor met him, and was put down immediately", from my interpretation of events. Honestly, I don't think it's chaos-related at all. Otherwise, Lorgar and the Lion would have faced his wrath as well.

The Lost Primarchs are often given the titles "The Forgotten and the Purged". Now, that's probably just me, but it sounds like they are two different titles, one who was forgotten by memory, the other actively purged. For simplicity's sake, I assume II was forgotten and XI purged. More on that order later.

One thing that's often brought up is how Primarchs are supposed to represent aspects of the Emperor. One aspect we haven't seen in any of the 18 is that of the man who created Thunder Warriors, Astartes, Custodes, and Primarchs. Three mechanism-crafters, but not a single Primarch we know of is gifted with gene-craft (especially not Corax…). If such a primarch was and is no more, he certainly went too far, trying to enhance his gene-seed, his people or even himself. The possibilities to screw up are immense. Clearly, great grounds for the Purged.

For the other, I'm less sure. Don't know nearly enough about the Emperor to find another missing piece of his personality. Others have talked about a Pariah Primarch, but I'm really not sure if that's possible given the primarchs' warp-nature, and in my interpretation Mortarion already covers the anti-warp aspect pretty well. Mortarion's legion, incidentally, leads to my favorite theory concerning the Forgotten: see how the Dusk Raiders and Death Guard, gene-seed apart, are nothing alike? How the War Hounds and Iconoclasts were drastically different from their lords? How Corax immediately cast the Pale Nomads to die at Gate 42? What if the gap was even greater there, and the Forgotten had done nothing wrong, except be of a different mind to his Legion, ending up murdered by his own sons?

That's just my imagination, though. However, there's still more we can extrapolate from what little hints were dropped in the literature. The First Heretic provides the most there. Destroying the XI primarch pod would apparently save the Gal Vorbak a lot of trouble, and do a service to the entire Imperium. That's why I believe the Purged was Number Eleven. I don't know whether the "us" in that sentence refers to the entire Imperium, or the Word Bearers specifically, but I'm inclined to believe the latter, if only because it adds legions to my list of those who were there at the Purge. As for the Ultramarines joke, I know full well it's completely false, but all rumors have to come from somewhere: I'll just assume the boys in blue were there as well. The discussion between Magnus and Mortarion also seems to imply they were too.

Regarding the Wolves as executioners, and that's my own opinion, although based on some very good posts in the Space Wolves Identity thread: the title Executioner is less literal than "they destroyed two legions". I'm even inclined to believe they were not involved at all, if only because "And then the wolves came and the legion was destroyed" annoys me, unless it's talking about Prospero because that's factual. You don't use a single legion to destroy another, when you have the ability to mobilize more. The Vlka Fenryka deserves more than that.

 

But we all know Legions II and XI were the Vlka Fenryka and Thousand Sons respectively, put to death by the Drowned…

[Brofist]

I do like the idea of the 11th legion's connection with Malal. I know it was retconned, but he was the 5th chaos god at one time

[Marshal Rohr]

From the shape of the hole they left behind, there's quite a few elements that can be inferred. For starters, we know all primarchs were reunited with their legions, and met each other, meaning they were purged after Alpharius was found. So no "he was warp-corrupted when the Emperor met him, and was put down immediately", from my interpretation of events. Honestly, I don't think it's chaos-related at all. Otherwise, Lorgar and the Lion would have faced his wrath as well.

The Lost Primarchs are often given the titles "The Forgotten and the Purged". Now, that's probably just me, but it sounds like they are two different titles, one who was forgotten by memory, the other actively purged. For simplicity's sake, I assume II was forgotten and XI purged. More on that order later.

One thing that's often brought up is how Primarchs are supposed to represent aspects of the Emperor. One aspect we haven't seen in any of the 18 is that of the man who created Thunder Warriors, Astartes, Custodes, and Primarchs. Three mechanism-crafters, but not a single Primarch we know of is gifted with gene-craft (especially not Corax…). If such a primarch was and is no more, he certainly went too far, trying to enhance his gene-seed, his people or even himself. The possibilities to screw up are immense. Clearly, great grounds for the Purged.

For the other, I'm less sure. Don't know nearly enough about the Emperor to find another missing piece of his personality. Others have talked about a Pariah Primarch, but I'm really not sure if that's possible given the primarchs' warp-nature, and in my interpretation Mortarion already covers the anti-warp aspect pretty well. Mortarion's legion, incidentally, leads to my favorite theory concerning the Forgotten: see how the Dusk Raiders and Death Guard, gene-seed apart, are nothing alike? How the War Hounds and Iconoclasts were drastically different from their lords? How Corax immediately cast the Pale Nomads to die at Gate 42? What if the gap was even greater there, and the Forgotten had done nothing wrong, except be of a different mind to his Legion, ending up murdered by his own sons?

That's just my imagination, though. However, there's still more we can extrapolate from what little hints were dropped in the literature. The First Heretic provides the most there. Destroying the XI primarch pod would apparently save the Gal Vorbak a lot of trouble, and do a service to the entire Imperium. That's why I believe the Purged was Number Eleven. I don't know whether the "us" in that sentence refers to the entire Imperium, or the Word Bearers specifically, but I'm inclined to believe the latter, if only because it adds legions to my list of those who were there at the Purge. As for the Ultramarines joke, I know full well it's completely false, but all rumors have to come from somewhere: I'll just assume the boys in blue were there as well. The discussion between Magnus and Mortarion also seems to imply they were too.

Regarding the Wolves as executioners, and that's my own opinion, although based on some very good posts in the Space Wolves Identity thread: the title Executioner is less literal than "they destroyed two legions". I'm even inclined to believe they were not involved at all, if only because "And then the wolves came and the legion was destroyed" annoys me, unless it's talking about Prospero because that's factual. You don't use a single legion to destroy another, when you have the ability to mobilize more. The Vlka Fenryka deserves more than that.

 

But we all know Legions II and XI were the Vlka Fenryka and Thousand Sons respectively, put to death by the Drowned…

You can't infer things about things that don't exist. While it's a fun excerise to imagine what happened to them, in reality there is no fluff or larger story.

[TRIBUN]

Great topic...go on ;)

[grailkeeper]

We also know the order primarchs were discovered in, This is from Laurie Goulding.

 

Horus
Leman Russ
[DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS]
Ferrus Manus
Fulgrim
Vulkan
Rogal Dorn
Roboute Guilliman
Magnus the Red
Sanguinius
Lion El'Jonson
Perturabo
Mortarion
Lorgar
Jaghatai Khan
Konrad Curze
Angron
Corax
[DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS]
Alpharius

 

 

This means that one of the primarchs was one of the oldest in the imperium, whereas the other was one of the newer ones. Some of the Fluff had Alpharius discovered shorty before the heresy. If that hasn't been completely retconned it must mean that what ever one of the missing primarchs did, it must have been relatively close to the heresy. (edit: Lexicanum says it happened at least 43 years before Istvaan V and that 

 

 

The information we have about primarchs being found might shed more light here? )(Edit: Lexicanum says yes, whatever happened happened befpre corax was found, which conflicts with the above.)

[Legatus]

One thing that's often brought up is how Primarchs are supposed to represent aspects of the Emperor. One aspect we haven't seen in any of the 18 is that of the man who created Thunder Warriors, Astartes, Custodes, and Primarchs. Three mechanism-crafters, but not a single Primarch we know of is gifted with gene-craft (especially not Corax…).

 

Well, the Emperor's Children were known for their particularly numerous Apothecarium and the extra care they took to ensure genetic purity. The Ultramarines are similarly known for exceptioinal genetic purity. Though there was no Primarch specifically famous for further genetically enhancing his gene-sons. But then I have doubts that the Emperor would have ever wanted a Primarch tinkering in that area. (He didn't really want a Primarch seeking the hidden mystic secrets of the universe either. Or one who psycho-surgically tampered with his Marines.)

On the other hand there is Fabius Bile, so there we are with the Emperor's Children again.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

One thing that's often brought up is how Primarchs are supposed to represent aspects of the Emperor. One aspect we haven't seen in any of the 18 is that of the man who created Thunder Warriors, Astartes, Custodes, and Primarchs. Three mechanism-crafters, but not a single Primarch we know of is gifted with gene-craft (especially not Corax…).

 

Well, the Emperor's Children were known for their particularly numerous Apothecarium and the extra care they took to ensure genetic purity. The Ultramarines are similarly known for exceptioinal genetic purity. Though there was no Primarch specifically famous for further genetically enhancing his gene-sons. But then I have doubts that the Emperor would have ever wanted a Primarch tinkering in that area. (He didn't really want a Primarch seeking the hidden mystic secrets of the universe either. Or one who psycho-surgically tampered with his Marines.)

On the other hand there is Fabius Bile, so there we are with the Emperor's Children again.

 

 

Doesnt some of the newer fluff state they were always tinkering because the geneseed was failing?

[The_son_of_Dorn]

It's suggested in a novel (or something ) mortarion wriggles lose on terra and manages to damage some equipment. I thought this was related to the disaster than took the III legions gene seed shortage. Hence the excessive need for apotecerian research to sustain what little gene seed remained and leading to the birth of that clone raising freak fabius.

[Raktra]

Oh come on AD-B, you know it was Icarion really.

*brawling between the BotL ensues for XIth place*

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

ADB setting the record straight again and breaking the hearts of traitors everywhere.

[blackoption]

There was actually a very well done write up regarding the lost legions.  I wish I could find it.  But it did a very good breakdown on who and what the 2 missing primarchs might have been based random bits of hints in the lore through out the ages.  However, this is known.  They were purged for two separate incidents.  The first was purged before Corrax was found, the last afterwards. 

 

Lexicanum has some resources and notes about them  here.

[bluntblade]

 

Oh come on AD-B, you know it was Icarion really.

 

*brawling between the BotL ensues for XIth place*

Raktra! No! Raktra! Put down that fork!

[Jackalwolf]

It's suggested in a novel (or something ) mortarion wriggles lose on terra and manages to damage some equipment. I thought this was related to the disaster than took the III legions gene seed shortage. Hence the excessive need for apotecerian research to sustain what little gene seed remained and leading to the birth of that clone raising freak fabius.

Nah, Fulgrim was discovered way before Mortarion, and the III Legion "Calamity" or "Blight" happened before the discovery of Fulgrim, in the first 50 years of the Crusade. What "happened" is the following

 

1- All legions had geneseed reserves in Terra to fuel the creation of the Legions

2- There was a viral infection that messed with all legion reserves, but affected particularly harshly the III, wiping it out entirely

3- All legions had redundancy reserves in Luna

4- When the III legion geneseed was reclaimed and transported back to Terra to create new legionnaries, the vessel carrying it was destroyed, allegedly by some gene crafter remnants of Luna

5- With no Primarch or geneseed, the IIIrd started to slowly die by attrition since they could only generate new astartes from the progenoid glands of the dead, and the dead could not always be recovered

6- During that time, read Chirurgeon from "War Without End", the problem was compounded with the "Blight" which was due to infected geneseed sent from Terra before the viral problem was detected, which caused Astartes to develop mutations and was contagious to previously "pure" astartes

7- Fabius Bile rose through that time and purged the legion from the tainted

8- Between the blight and the attrition, by when they discovered Fulgrim they were down to 200 astartes

9- With Fulgrim, the process sped up significantly and they could have a full legion by the last third or quarter of the Crusade

 

A pitty truly, since the IIIrd was literally the best legion of all before their fall, and Fulgrim only made it worse with his inner fears. Had he encountered a fully functional legion with the most accolades of all, he might have been a completely different Primarch not marred by his own insecurities.

[Jareddm]

There was actually a very well done write up regarding the lost legions. I wish I could find it. But it did a very good breakdown on who and what the 2 missing primarchs might have been based random bits of hints in the lore through out the ages. However, this is known. They were purged for two separate incidents. The first was purged before Corrax was found, the last afterwards.

 

Lexicanum has some resources and notes about them here.

The statement in Deliverance Lost is not a reference to the two missing primarchs. By Gav's own word (searching for the exact quote now) it is a reference to the two primarchs who hadn't been found yet, since Corax was the 18th found but led the 19th legion. Both missing primarchs weren't gone until after Alpharius was found.